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FeralbyNight (Cat & Bear simulation tool)


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#21 Allev

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 02:31 PM

How much of an edge does 2T7+2T8 have? Is this on the order of 20 DPS, or 200? Will the stats on two pieces of gear make up the difference?

#22 nightcrowler

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 08:05 PM

I didn't do an extended simulation so those are only preliminary infos:

2T7: 6670 +/-2
2T7+4T7: 6708 +/-2

2T8 (assuming proc rate = ooc proc rate): 6801 +/-2
2T8+4T8: 6909+/-2
4T8 (w/o 2T8 bonus): 6581 +/-2

2T7+2T8: 6976 +/-2

No set bonuses: 6515 +/-2
All tested with my usual sim stats (around best in slot and all buffs). Cycle is 3SR/5RIP/(5FB) as usual, 1SR/5RIP/(5FB) with 4T8.

Obviously I have changed only set bonus for different simulations. I'm using rip, SR and shred glyphs with a manglebot.

#23 Allev

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 09:21 PM

So the difference overall looks to be 67 DPS before difference in gear, and a similarly itemized ilvl226 piece should have about half that damage difference. So it looks like it'll be a wash, more or less, trading two pieces of T7 for two pieces of T8.

Then again, T7 isn't exactly the pinnacle of itemization.

#24 nightcrowler

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 07:41 AM

I'll try to put on the newer version of the simulator soon (2-3 days), I was really full of work those days.
In the next version:

Bear:
- Barkskin usage
- Inspiration usage
- Demoralizing Roar usage

- New t8 set bonuses
- New FFF

Cat:
- Shred better micromanagement
- SR better micromanagement
- OOC usage (I should see if it's still better to shred, also with 2T8)
- New t8 set bonuses


A question for everybody:
I've seen a post WotLK Level 80 boss AP - TankSpot about Demo Roar. Basically it seems that 5/5 Demo roar will work on bosses.
What I need to know is: does AP -> damage on bosses scales always the same way or is a % of boss damage.

(Basically: If for Maexxna 1 AP = 6 DPS. And demo roar removes about 10% of boss damage, does it remove 10% of any boss damage or the fixed ap -> dps conversion of 6?).

#25 Wulfmanjack

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 03:26 PM

In TBC it was % scaling not dps whise. Thats why it was important on Brutalus ;)
Interesting to know that you need a max skilled shout. In the TBC i think 2 points where enough for a warrior without curse of reclessness on the boss.
Will think of implementing it into my tank build.

#26 nightcrowler

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 07:13 PM

Will think of implementing it into my tank build.


Then it's about 10% for base shout and 0.92% for each talent points. I'm thinking about removing king of the jungle and imp mangle to take primal gore and 5/5 roar.

P.S.

Does savage defense proc off lacerate crits?

#27 Fasc

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 10:00 PM

Savage Defense does NOT proc off of Lacerate or other bleed crits (if you happen to go from Cat to Bear for whatever reason)

Only on the application of Lacerate and our other direct attacks. Primal Gore for Bear would be just a threat bump but is a point well worth it I think given other choices that really don't add a ton to the overall threat of a Bear.

#28 Duilliath

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 12:03 AM

Then it's about 10% for base shout and 0.92% for each talent points. I'm thinking about removing king of the jungle and imp mangle to take primal gore and 5/5 roar.

P.S.

Does savage defense proc off lacerate crits?


Problem I have with that is that it's a major DPS hit when you're not tanking to drop KotJ.
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#29 Wulfmanjack

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 01:43 AM

Problem I have with that is that it's a major DPS hit when you're not tanking to drop KotJ.


Dualspec ;)

#30 Fasc

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 01:50 AM

Dualspec ;)


This.

With the advent of Dual-spec, there is really no reason whatsoever to not have a fully dedicated Bear spec and a fully dedicated Fill-In-the-Blank spec. For me it will be a Bear and Cat build and the Cat build will have Improved Leader of the Pack so that I can solo without pulling my hair out.

Dual-spec pretty much eliminates the need to worry about having utility outside of a particular role and even if we get several "OT an add til dead then DPS" scenarios, those either won't be heavily reliant upon a tank to do high end DPS to be successful, or won't be heavily dependent upon a DPSer being maxed tanking spec to be successful. Bear and Cat raiding specs should pretty much be maxed out at this point.

#31 Thaeryn

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 05:10 PM

It's definitely been awhile since I've read through C++ code, and I definitely didn't dig too deep, but I saw a couple of things that might merit some double checking.

When Rake initial damage is calculated, you use the following lines:


rake.adamage=((ap*0.01))*(1+fury_m)*(1+naturalist_m)*(1+mdebuff*0.3);
rake.acritdamage=(2*(1+pistinct_m)*(1+META*0.03)*((ap*0.01))*(1+fury_m)*(1+naturalist_m))*(1+mdebuff*0.3);
rake.bdamage=(190)*(1+fury_m)*(1+naturalist_m)*(1+mdebuff*0.3);
rake.bcritdamage=(2*(1+pistinct_m)*(1+META*0.03)*(190)*(1+fury_m)*(1+naturalist_m))*(1+mdebuff*0.3);

Here, you are taking into account both the base and AP modified damage and the additional effects of Primal Fury, Naturalist, and Mangle on the non-crits.

Here is the later code in which you apply it to overall damage:

//cout << "Time: " << timer/100.0 << ", Energy: " << en <<"\n";
dmg=(1+sr*src)*(1+RA*0.02)*(rake.adamage+rake.bdamage)*(1+0.3*mdebuff);
damage+=dmg;
ydamage+=dmg;
rake_damage_tot+=dmg;
rakenum++;

Here you are applying the Savage Roar modifier, Retribution Aura, and again Mangle.

Are you double dipping into the Mangle debuff here? Also, your Retribution Aura modifier is 0.02 throughout, and the buff itself is 3%, not 2%.

Last, just possibly a typo when displaying the Rake timer. It prints "Rip Timer" instead of "Rake Timer". It's commented out, but still caught my eye:

rkem++;
//cout << "Tick: " << rkem << " Rip Timer " << rake_timer/100.0 <<"\n";
damage+=dmg;
ydamage+=dmg;


I apologize if I'm completely off base with any of this. As I said, it's been awhile since I've read over C++ coding, and I'm a hobby programmer at best. Overall this looks like a great tool, and I'm excited about using it. Also, not so much a bug, but more of a curiosity... How exactly did you come upon the modifier for Primal Fury? You have fury_t set at 2 to indicate 2 points in the talent. This then gets multiplied by 0.1 for fury_m, the multiplier, resulting in a multipler of 0.2. This is then applied to the base damage of abilities, in a similar way that Naturalist is applied as a 0.1 modifier. Is Primal Fury best represented as a 20% increase to base damage? This would seem to undervalue crit and it's benefits in maintaining a cycle. Is this talent just too difficult to model in a simulator? Thanks for your time, and thanks so much for your work on this!

#32 nightcrowler

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 08:09 PM

Thanks for your imput Thaeryn, the second part is only an out-put so it doesn't interfer with the simulation, the first quote it's actually an error (I double count mangle damage on rake) because since a few patch ago initial rake damage didn't get multiplied by mangle so I quick put it into the code and didn't check it. Thanks for the correction (hopefully rake initial damage is very low so it doesn't change sims output too much).

#33 PrayForDeath

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 11:05 AM

Here's something very interesting I discovered while in bearform the other day. As we all know, the GCD for Cat abilities is 1 second, while the GCD for Bear abilities is 1.5 seconds. However, Feral Faerie Fire in bearform triggers a 1 seconds GCD just like Cat form, and this should greatly increase its threat value compared to other abilities.

I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere on the forums (maybe I just missed it), so I just thought I'd post it here for you to include it in your bear simulation if it's not in there.

#34 manapaws

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 12:32 PM

Here's something very interesting I discovered while in bearform the other day. As we all know, the GCD for Cat abilities is 1 second, while the GCD for Bear abilities is 1.5 seconds. However, Feral Faerie Fire in bearform triggers a 1 seconds GCD just like Cat form, and this should greatly increase its threat value compared to other abilities.

I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere on the forums (maybe I just missed it), so I just thought I'd post it here for you to include it in your bear simulation if it's not in there.


The problem with that is that feral faeri fire will last for 5 minutes on a boss and can't be reapplied (more powerful spell already active etc).

(edit: in 3.1)
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#35 Pzychotix

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 01:35 PM

Here's something very interesting I discovered while in bearform the other day. As we all know, the GCD for Cat abilities is 1 second, while the GCD for Bear abilities is 1.5 seconds. However, Feral Faerie Fire in bearform triggers a 1 seconds GCD just like Cat form, and this should greatly increase its threat value compared to other abilities.

I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere on the forums (maybe I just missed it), so I just thought I'd post it here for you to include it in your bear simulation if it's not in there.


The thing about it is that it's still on a 6s cooldown. At best, you can abuse the 1s GCD to compensate for lag (don't forget to queue up your next attack a little faster), and ensure you always get your mangles with minimal time wasted.

#36 nightcrowler

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 02:25 PM

Changed GCD for bear FFF in the code. thanks for the info.

#37 Helistar

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 03:07 PM

Here's something very interesting I discovered while in bearform the other day. As we all know, the GCD for Cat abilities is 1 second, while the GCD for Bear abilities is 1.5 seconds.


Do you know if this GCD is modifier by haste (as in the case of spellcasters)? I've searched around, but I've found both pages which say that it is and pages which say that it isn't....
Since I'm also working on a simulator, this kind of information is very interesting.

#38 PrayForDeath

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 05:09 PM

Do you know if this GCD is modifier by haste (as in the case of spellcasters)? I've searched around, but I've found both pages which say that it is and pages which say that it isn't....
Since I'm also working on a simulator, this kind of information is very interesting.


Since haste doesn't lower the GCD below 1 second, FFF is certainly not affected by haste.

The problem with that is that feral faeri fire will last for 5 minutes on a boss and can't be reapplied (more powerful spell already active etc).

(edit: in 3.1)


Well in its current state it still helps in 5 mans and melee-based 10mans. Though I really hope they fix this silly bug and let us reapply it without replacing the debuff (just do dmg/threat).

The thing about it is that it's still on a 6s cooldown.


1 second GCD significantly raises the theoretical TPS value of FFF over 1.5 second GCD, which makes it really worth including in your regular threat rotation (especially considering the 0 rage cost and bonus damage next patch.)

Thanks for all the work on the simulation Nightcrowler, I can't wait to see the addon!

#39 Deathwing

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 05:55 PM

1 second GCD significantly raises the theoretical TPS value of FFF over 1.5 second GCD, which makes it really worth including in your regular threat rotation (especially considering the 0 rage cost and bonus damage next patch.)


If you look at the ability itself, yes. However, if you look at the ability within a rotation, no. Just like no tank takes 1/3 or 2/3 improved mangle, the half second you'll save from FFF will just be wasted eventually waiting for mangle to come off cooldown.

#40 PrayForDeath

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 08:59 PM

If you look at the ability itself, yes. However, if you look at the ability within a rotation, no. Just like no tank takes 1/3 or 2/3 improved mangle, the half second you'll save from FFF will just be wasted eventually waiting for mangle to come off cooldown.


Good point. And I guess 1/3 imp mangle wouldn't help in this case since the CD wouldn't be equal to FFF anymore.

So I suppose it's just a nice little convenience (window for lag?).




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