Jump to content


Photo

Rawr Retribution Model


  • Please log in to reply
666 replies to this topic

#21 Endoscient

Endoscient

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 716 posts

Posted 06 April 2009 - 04:23 PM

There is a bug with being under-valued. May not be working correctly with gems, but I'm not sure. Right now, with no belt equipped and at 216 hit rating, Rawr is telling me it's the 5th best plate belt. However, if I apply the relative stat values to both items (while no belt is equipped), I get at 293.8 DPS, while it's only showing up as 241.45 DPS. Doing the same to (which it currently recommends as BiS), I get 252.48 DPS, and it shows as 248.84. If I ignore both red gems in the , I get 240.04, which is a lot closer to what's being listed and is what leads me to believe it may have something to do with gems.


Comparing an item's dps in the charts to its relative stat values is a very bad idea, especially when you are as close to the hit cap as your are. First you should turn on enforce gem requirements, since most of the items above the belt were ones with prismatics when you already had your 3 used up. Then only 2 Ulduar belts are ahead of it, both of which are clearly better then that belt anyway.

I don't see anything wrong with the rings, Sif's Promise is the only one ahead of ruthlessness, and Surge Needle is top of the list. Yes, Rawr correctly applies racial expertise bonuses, which is why as a Dwarf Jawbone can be just as good/better then Betrayer.

Did you download the updated dll posted in this thread? It seems like you are experiencing the weird edge cases with haste, which is why I reverted the Rotation Simulator from using shorter spell gcds.

#22 Raencloud

Raencloud

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 171 posts

Posted 06 April 2009 - 06:06 PM

Comparing an item's dps in the charts to its relative stat values is a very bad idea, especially when you are as close to the hit cap as your are. First you should turn on enforce gem requirements, since most of the items above the belt were ones with prismatics when you already had your 3 used up. Then only 2 Ulduar belts are ahead of it, both of which are clearly better then that belt anyway.

I don't see anything wrong with the rings, Sif's Promise is the only one ahead of ruthlessness, and Surge Needle is top of the list. Yes, Rawr correctly applies racial expertise bonuses, which is why as a Dwarf Jawbone can be just as good/better then Betrayer.

Did you download the updated dll posted in this thread? It seems like you are experiencing the weird edge cases with haste, which is why I reverted the Rotation Simulator from using shorter spell gcds.


*sigh* I did not realize there was an updated .dll, so it looks like the haste thing was what was giving me most of the weird results. I was seeing vastly different results than what you described until I updated the dll file, which fixed everything I was having a problem with. Thank you and I apologize for not re-reading the first post.


edit: The wait feature is interesting. I see a direct increase in dps as I increase the wait limit up to 0.83 seconds, after which nothing changes. I've always wondered about whether I should wait an extra half second to cast Judgement or CS or squeeze in a DS or Consecration, and this is leading me to believe I should just wait. Is this feature fully implemented and accurate?

#23 rldolph79

rldolph79

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 93 posts

Posted 06 April 2009 - 07:28 PM

I've always wondered about whether I should wait an extra half second to cast Judgement or CS or squeeze in a DS or Consecration, and this is leading me to believe I should just wait. Is this feature fully implemented and accurate?


This is a beta version based on theorycrafted values which change every time Blizzard updates the PTR with a new build. Even if we were a month into 3.1 and the theorycrafting community had settled on one weighting for stats, there's no way to be sure that any of it is 100% accurate.

Are these the best values that they can come up with based on incomplete information? Probably, but that doesn't mean a whole lot right now. Don't try to read too much into spreadsheets and Rawr... They are nothing more than tools to help point you in the right direction.

The currently accepted best method for DPSing is to use the ability highest on priority list in the Ret thread when multiple abilities come off CD at the same time. NEVER wait for another ability to come off CD if you already have one you can use.

#24 Endoscient

Endoscient

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 716 posts

Posted 06 April 2009 - 09:00 PM

edit: The wait feature is interesting. I see a direct increase in dps as I increase the wait limit up to 0.83 seconds, after which nothing changes. I've always wondered about whether I should wait an extra half second to cast Judgement or CS or squeeze in a DS or Consecration, and this is leading me to believe I should just wait. Is this feature fully implemented and accurate?


There is a bug in the currently released version that over values the dps gained by setting a higher wait. It will be fixed for next release. The wait feature is more of a model of human error. Say if Judgement is coming off cd .05 sec before Crusader Strike, it is very unlikely we will be able to tell which one is truly coming up first, so we just hit the higher priority one.

This is a beta version based on theorycrafted values which change every time Blizzard updates the PTR with a new build. Even if we were a month into 3.1 and the theorycrafting community had settled on one weighting for stats, there's no way to be sure that any of it is 100% accurate.


No matter how good the Theorycrafting gets, there will never be one final set of stat weightings. How much dps each stat gives depends on how good/high your other stats are. That is why you use a theorycrafting tool like Rawr or Redcape's spreadsheet instead of an inaccurate addon like Pawn.

#25 galzohar

galzohar

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2,004 posts

Posted 06 April 2009 - 09:06 PM

There is a bug in the currently released version that over values the dps gained by setting a higher wait. It will be fixed for next release. The wait feature is more of a model of human error. Say if Judgement is coming off cd .05 sec before Crusader Strike, it is very unlikely we will be able to tell which one is truly coming up first, so we just hit the higher priority one.


Is there no addon that can get around this issue? Not that it matters a whole lot, though.

#26 rea123

rea123

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 24 posts

Posted 08 April 2009 - 01:08 AM

One thing I forgot to mention. Make sure when you load your character from Armory you check out the talent pane and make sure everything has the proper 3.1 ranks. It can be messed up at first, because of the large amount of talent changes from live.


Hi,

Possibly being an eejit here (new to Rawr), but when you say talent ranks look wrong, does this include talents that you expect to be available not appearing? And if so, what does one do about it?

I ask because having downloaded according to instructions, I cannot see the Divine Guardian talent at all in the Prot tree.

Based on the fact that I haven't found any other comment about this, and the fact that it is currently thought to be part of the generally accepted "best" spec for Ret (0/17/54), I suspect I may have done something embarrassingly wrong, but for the life of me I can't see what it is ;-)

#27 Endoscient

Endoscient

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 716 posts

Posted 08 April 2009 - 01:50 AM

Hi,

Possibly being an eejit here (new to Rawr), but when you say talent ranks look wrong, does this include talents that you expect to be available not appearing? And if so, what does one do about it?

I ask because having downloaded according to instructions, I cannot see the Divine Guardian talent at all in the Prot tree.

Based on the fact that I haven't found any other comment about this, and the fact that it is currently thought to be part of the generally accepted "best" spec for Ret (0/17/54), I suspect I may have done something embarrassingly wrong, but for the life of me I can't see what it is ;-)


Divine Guardian isn't in, because when we updated the talent trees it wasn't implemented yet. It doesn't effect calculations in anyway, so you can just pretend you have it. It will be in for the final 2.2 release.

#28 Guest_Alarius_*

Guest_Alarius_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 April 2009 - 04:25 AM

Is there a better module suited for the live realms than the one that comes in the latest stable version of Rawr? As it is now that one doesn't value librams and certain enchants and trinkets.

#29 Raencloud

Raencloud

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 171 posts

Posted 08 April 2009 - 02:55 PM

Is there a better module suited for the live realms than the one that comes in the latest stable version of Rawr? As it is now that one doesn't value librams and certain enchants and trinkets.


You should be able to add in any trinkets and librams that aren't already in the item cache. To do so, go to Tools->Edit Items. In the bottom left of that window there is an "Add Items" button, and you can just type in the name of whatever item you want added in. Make sure you spell it correctly though.

edited to add: Not sure how to add enchants.

Unfortunately, though, I believe the Ret module of Rawr is only setup to model 3.1 with all the new changes, so some of the informations may not be 100% accurate to you on live right now.

#30 rea123

rea123

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 24 posts

Posted 08 April 2009 - 03:25 PM

You should be able to add in any trinkets and librams that aren't already in the item cache. To do so, go to Tools->Edit Items. In the bottom left of that window there is an "Add Items" button, and you can just type in the name of whatever item you want added in. Make sure you spell it correctly though.

edited to add: Not sure how to add enchants.

Unfortunately, though, I believe the Ret module of Rawr is only setup to model 3.1 with all the new changes, so some of the informations may not be 100% accurate to you on live right now.


The librams are already in the (2.1.9) item cache; not sure why they are not available in the comparisons window. There is a thread in the Rawr discussion forum in which the original author stated that he'd fix this if it were an easy fix, so I'm guessing either he didn't get round to it (understandibly, given that he's otherwise occupied at the moment), or it isn't easy.

As for enchants, those need to be amended by hand in the EnchantCache.xml file. From another discussion on Rawr forum, you can fix Berserking (I assume that's the one you want - it was for me) by finding that entry in EnchantCache.xml, incrementing the ID field, and replacing <BerserkingProc>1</BerserkingProc> with <AttackPower>140</AttackPower>.

The only other change I made to get a reasonable 3.0.9 module in 2.1.9 was to edit Chuchu's Tiny Box of Horrors (using the Edit Item interface) to add (iirc) 51.2 flat Crit Rating to simulate the proc (based on discussion on wowhead).

Hope this helps.

#31 frmorrison

frmorrison

    Protector

  • Allied Members
  • 11,427 posts

Posted 08 April 2009 - 03:32 PM

Is there a better module suited for the live realms than the one that comes in the latest stable version of Rawr? As it is now that one doesn't value librams and certain enchants and trinkets.


3.1 is coming out April 14th or 21st, so you might as well use the beta Rawr even for the current game. 2.1.9 didn't have the two roll system and did a few things wrong, so no point in using it.

You can always edit a trinket/libram into Rawr. Rawr has support for the all the librams (like extra damage to DS/CS), but you may have to manually find the correct field in the edit table.

For modeling click trinkets, I use use the average over time, so if your trinket has a click for 200 AP for 15 seconds (2 min cooldown), you use 200 * 15/120 or 25 AP to model it in Rawr.

#32 Guest_Alarius_*

Guest_Alarius_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 April 2009 - 04:07 PM

3.1 is coming out April 14th or 21st, so you might as well use the beta Rawr even for the current game. 2.1.9 didn't have the two roll system and did a few things wrong, so no point in using it.

You can always edit a trinket/libram into Rawr. Rawr has support for the all the librams (like extra damage to DS/CS), but you may have to manually find the correct field in the edit table.

For modeling click trinkets, I use use the average over time, so if your trinket has a click for 200 AP for 15 seconds (2 min cooldown), you use 200 * 15/120 or 25 AP to model it in Rawr.


Okay thanks, I'll give the beta a shot when I get home, I wasn't sure exactly how close 3.1 was to 3.0.9 so I hesitated.

I'll also try modeling some of that stuff myself to brush up on some math but I do foresee having to dig up ICDs and such for certain items like Mirror of Truth, no big deal though.

#33 greatrichie

greatrichie

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 98 posts

Posted 08 April 2009 - 08:35 PM

Ok this may be the wrong place to ask this and it may be a stupid question, but I'm trying to add in the proc from Bandits insignia for my 3.1 set(probably the ghetto way), and taken from my WWS over a night in naxx, the average hit was 2426. The ICD is 45 seconds, so I divided 2426 by 45 seconds, and got ~53. SO that'd be like 53 DPS right?(If not theres a disclaimer later) Then multiplied it by 6, and added that dmg to the CS dmg block on the edit item thing. Now a disclaimer, I suck at math, and more or less just wondering if this is a passable way of figuring that proc (i.e. I know the crit chance for the proc is a bit less than CS but eh).

#34 Raencloud

Raencloud

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 171 posts

Posted 08 April 2009 - 08:38 PM

Okay thanks, I'll give the beta a shot when I get home, I wasn't sure exactly how close 3.1 was to 3.0.9 so I hesitated.


There are a lot of changes, but the 2.1.9 version just isn't very accurate to live either (unless I am misinterpreting the 2 roll system as having already been on live). This single discovery alone nearly invalidates the 2.1.9 rawr module because it severely undervalues hit and expertise.


bandit's insignia stuff


The first part is correct; it is 53 dps based on those numbers. I don't know if the second part is a very good way to input that though. I thought there was already a way to model dmg procs through the trinket itself though.

#35 greatrichie

greatrichie

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 98 posts

Posted 08 April 2009 - 08:41 PM

There are a lot of changes, but the 2.1.9 version just isn't very accurate to live either (unless I am misinterpreting the 2 roll system as having already been on live). This single discovery alone nearly invalidates the 2.1.9 rawr module because it severely undervalues hit and expertise.


This is true. I highly doubt they changed the roll system in 3.1, it's just that no one tested it prior to now, so Minus the SoB change and haste changes, the Beta Rawr is probably better for live.

Edit: Actually.... I was one of the people doing the tests, and they were done on live, so 2 roll system applies. Not sure why I didn't think of that when making my first reply.

BI stuff-
Thats why I was asking, because I couldn't think of another way to try and model the Proc, other than tack on the dmg that will happen to something we're going to be using every time it's up. In my mind, as confused as it is, if it does 53 dps, then 53*6 should be what it'd do over 6 seconds, i.e. the cd for CS. As I said I know it works off spell crit, so the crit chance would be a little lower. I was just trying to get a ballpark figure. Mainly because I don't like comparing a BI without a proc to Mirror with a proc figured in.

#36 Endoscient

Endoscient

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 716 posts

Posted 09 April 2009 - 12:13 AM

Ok this may be the wrong place to ask this and it may be a stupid question, but I'm trying to add in the proc from Bandits insignia for my 3.1 set(probably the ghetto way), and taken from my WWS over a night in naxx, the average hit was 2426. The ICD is 45 seconds, so I divided 2426 by 45 seconds, and got ~53. SO that'd be like 53 DPS right?(If not theres a disclaimer later) Then multiplied it by 6, and added that dmg to the CS dmg block on the edit item thing. Now a disclaimer, I suck at math, and more or less just wondering if this is a passable way of figuring that proc (i.e. I know the crit chance for the proc is a bit less than CS but eh).


The special effect system got a massive overhaul since beta 6 came out. It will be more accurate, include a lot more procs (like Bandit's Insignia), and will be significantly easier for users to add there own procs. The way you are trying to add it won't work, since "Crusader Strike Damage" gets multiplied by a few CS specific multipliers. I can't think of a good way to model it either with the current stats, you are just going to need to wait until the next beta.

2.1.9 came out before I took over the module and rewrote, so I wouldn't trust its results at all. I would just use 2.2b6 for now, and prepare for 3.1 which should be out in a week or two.

#37 saibot

saibot

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 31 posts

Posted 09 April 2009 - 12:52 AM

The special effect system got a massive overhaul since beta 6 came out. It will be more accurate, include a lot more procs (like Bandit's Insignia), and will be significantly easier for users to add there own procs. The way you are trying to add it won't work, since "Crusader Strike Damage" gets multiplied by a few CS specific multipliers. I can't think of a good way to model it either with the current stats, you are just going to need to wait until the next beta.

2.1.9 came out before I took over the module and rewrote, so I wouldn't trust its results at all. I would just use 2.2b6 for now, and prepare for 3.1 which should be out in a week or two.


I tried editing the trinket and assigning min-max damage values to "weapon properties" of the edit menu, with a speed of 45, which is ideally assumed the time between procs. I know it's a lot more, but we can agree on that number for argument's sake. Anyway, even though the number "48.51 DPS" appears near "190 Attack Power", it doesn't seem to factor it in for some reason. At least we could get it to work this way.

One question: You said that CS gets multiplied by some CS specific multipliers. Can't we just divide those CS specific multipliers off the damage we are going to input in, so it's like they get cancelled off anyway? E.g. Let's say the trinket gives 53 dps, 53 times 6 is 318. If we divide 318 with 1.1, which is the 10% of AoW we get 289.09, which is the number without the multiplier factored it. Can't you say we could get a very rough estimate of the trinket's worth this way?

I find myself in the very same situation as greatrichie since I have the trinket sitting in my bank for a long time. And since I've tried to "model" it, I looked and tampered with every multiplier that is available on the edit tab but I can't seem to get any results. It would be great if we could know it's value.

#38 frmorrison

frmorrison

    Protector

  • Allied Members
  • 11,427 posts

Posted 09 April 2009 - 02:13 AM

As I said I know it works off spell crit, so the crit chance would be a little lower. I was just trying to get a ballpark figure. Mainly because I don't like comparing a BI without a proc to Mirror with a proc figured in.


The easiest way to model it would be to add in the old SSO neck that had an arcane strike to it (level 70 item from being exalted with SSO), since it is still in Rawr.

BI's proc is a arcane spell, so is affected by all spell modifiers like Vengeance (it affects all magic damage done) and Ebon plague, your spell crit and your spell hit.

Assume 14% spell miss (3% from Spriest) and normal 9% spell hit, 5% chance to miss.

(((1504+2256)*1.13*1.09*.95)/2)(1+0.5(spellcrit%/100))/50 (45 ICD) so assume 30% spell crit + 5% from Scorch + 3% from HotC (-3% for spell crit depression) = 52 dps

You can just add that number to the dps number Rawr gives you at the the left side of the page.

#39 saibot

saibot

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 31 posts

Posted 09 April 2009 - 02:23 AM

The easiest way to model it would be to add in the old SSO neck that had an arcane strike to it (level 70 item from being exalted with SSO), since it is still in Rawr.

BI's proc is a arcane spell, so is affected by all spell modifiers like Vengeance (it affects all magic damage done) and Ebon plague, your spell crit and your spell hit.

Assume 14% spell miss (3% from Spriest) and normal 9% spell hit, 5% chance to miss.

(((1504+2256)*1.13*1.09*.95)/2)(1+0.5(spellcrit%/100))/50 (45 ICD) so assume 30% spell crit + 5% from Scorch + 3% from HotC (-3% for spell crit depression) = 52 dps

You can just add that number to the dps number Rawr gives you at the the left side of the page.


As I said in the previous post nothing from the equipment procs works properly for modelling the trinket. I assume you mean the shattered sun spell neck proc, which yes, is modelled in rawr but doesn't seem to affect the trinket at all if you input a value in the field.

#40 Endoscient

Endoscient

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 716 posts

Posted 09 April 2009 - 03:08 AM

The easiest way to model it would be to add in the old SSO neck that had an arcane strike to it (level 70 item from being exalted with SSO), since it is still in Rawr.

BI's proc is a arcane spell, so is affected by all spell modifiers like Vengeance (it affects all magic damage done) and Ebon plague, your spell crit and your spell hit.

Assume 14% spell miss (3% from Spriest) and normal 9% spell hit, 5% chance to miss.

(((1504+2256)*1.13*1.09*.95)/2)(1+0.5(spellcrit%/100))/50 (45 ICD) so assume 30% spell crit + 5% from Scorch + 3% from HotC (-3% for spell crit depression) = 52 dps

You can just add that number to the dps number Rawr gives you at the the left side of the page.


The SSO neck no longer works in the most current version, I didn't add support for it in when I rewrote the module.

What you are trying to do is add how much dps you know it does, it is really just easiest to pretend it has that much when comparing. This also one of the new benefits of the new special effect system. Users will be able to manually add there own procs (how much the buff gives, its ICD, its proc rate, etc) and it will automatically compute its value.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users