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Raiding with Beast Mastery in 3.3.3 and beyond


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#21 Rosamonde

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 06:54 AM

When I saw the changes to Furious Howl, I expected the wolf to be a good pet, at least until we get a lot of T8 gear -- the changes buffed its damage considerably as it was intended to do. It would have been a good pet before if the buff stacked with other raid buffs, which it does now, plus it was increased since it doesn't affect anyone besides the hunter and wolf. I am not sure why you are surprised that the changes will make it better than it is now -- unless I am misunderstanding your comments.

The wolf itself does not do more damage than the devilsaur, but including the buff to the hunter it is an overall increase over other pets and a close second to the devilsaur. I suppose it is true that the hunter's own stats have an effect on how good a wolf looks, in the sense that because it is a flat AP increase rather than a percent, having relatively low AP means that the wolf's buff represents a larger percent increase in AP than it would for someone with higher AP. I do think a moth will look better at (much) higher AP levels because of its percent-based buff (to itself only). All I can advise is to try it yourself in the spreadsheet and see how it works for you.

As to whether the spreadsheet models wolves correctly, I am afraid I do not have the know-how to check on it, but you could make a post in the spreadsheet thread if you truly think that is the case.

#22 daragh

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 09:22 AM

It is a pity to see the spirit beast perform badly on the ptr tests... they might have fixed the spell issue bug but the miss% of the spirit beast is still high which in turn causes a drop in DPS. This pet was never meant to be THE DPS pet and thats normal cause I'd hate to see it become the new Humar. However it is an under performing exotic pet... tests run on the last PTR build 9757 showed a minor improvement on the DPS for the S-beast... I guess the wolf might be the sane option for everyone in the raid. (simply cause it does'nt get in the way like the devilsaur does)

#23 Nooska

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 11:14 AM

I'm going to slowly kick myself for making 1 giant mistake.

I did not think about 2 important things; 1) I am using version 84 of the spreadsheet - which means I can't use it to predict how changes in 3.1. affect my choices. 2) I forgot glyph of Kill Shots existence - im not sure how this happened as I looked at wowhead's list of majors and minors respectively.

Anyway, you are completely correct about your points, and if I'm not mistaken that should even be an upgrade for me now (plugging it in, I'll just confirm that) - Aspect of the hawk + glyph is a ~200 dps upgrade with IAotH over endurance training - or ~5% for me personally.

This does confim my thoughts about serpent sting not being worth it for the few global cooldowns we win on it.

Regarding the trinket procs that was an issue with using EotB during BW with the possesed strength glyph, but it also does apply to the increased rate of autoshots.

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Glyph of Mend Pet - has this been fixed to work with IMP yet (on the ptr)? if not we should add the caveat that it doesn't work with IMP (yet) and thus is "useless" if any points are put into IMP.


Later today (have a vets appointment shortly) I will play around with specs, I have some thoughts on synergy in a combinations that might be silly but work - will get back to that.

The poste spec puts the t2 floater point in Endurance Training - is there any reason that would make it more valuable there than Improved Aspect of the Monkey for instance? I am thinking the extra dodge is nice when we are kiting - without speccing directly for it.
My thoughts are along the line; that with multiple hunters BM hunters are the better choice for kiting as we only loose half our dps while kiting (being able to send out pet on the target) compared to.. well every ther kiting class that need to give up most of their dps. (SV hunters could possibly do okay damage from LnL procs off frost traps)

#24 Nakaya_kilrogg

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 01:14 PM

On the PTR, how is BM compared to Survival damage for raids? I haven't gotten to see any WWS reports yet. I've really wanted to give BM a go again.

I really like the 53/11/7 build, but I'm unsure if I should go with 2/2 mend pet or 1/2 spirit bond, 1/2 mend pet. My healers rarely decurse pets, and they usually only get healed with a stray chain heal or CoH or somesuch. Anyone else run into this, and if so, what'd you decide?

#25 Nooska

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 01:35 PM

As a raid officer myself I get very analretentive about our healers cleansing and healing hunter pets - as a consequence ours are getting very good at it (mostly).
I would suggest that you look into talking to your raid healer or dps officer (who should then talk to the healing officer) about it being a problem - espceially with beastmaster hunters. Of course they should not let a player character die to save a pet (because the pet has infinite combat resses available) but anything short of that is allowing a massive dps loss for the raid.

As a consequence I would suggest you go with 2/2 spirit bond. The 25% chance to cleanse means that you will, on average, wait 6 seconds for a cleanse to go through - most cleansable things are either deadly by then, or don't matter (when in a raid setting)

#26 TrevvyTrev

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 03:10 PM

Splitting Spirit Bond/Imp Mend can be fine but you just have to test it. I'm not sure I agree with 6 seconds being too long to wait for a decurse (particularly if the alternative is not getting one at all), and the tradeoff is that you're only losing 5% healing done to you and your pet plus 1% total health every 10 seconds. Maybe the 25% chance to cleanse won't make a difference in raid environments often but by the same token it's hard to say that 5% healing taken/1% health regen makes a big difference either. Sometimes hedging your bet is perfectly acceptable.

#27 Brughe

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 03:24 PM

This is an interesting idea. I have used Eyes of the Beast mainly as a way to fool around while waiting for the raid to start, but since the hunter remains in a "casting pose" while channeling it, I do not see how auto-shot could continue firing. Still, if the pet does enough damage during this time it could very well make up for the loss of hunter damage.


I see this more as a gimmick. If it is a valid DPS boost, it will only be really effective during Patchwerk type fights. The problem will arise in any boss fight that requires you to "not stand in bad stuff." Which is a lot of them nowadays. Maybe there are less in Ulduar. I've been lax on reading up on those fights.

Basically, imagine never realizing the benefits of Glyph of Possessed Beast over Glyph of Aspect of the Hawk because every time you kick in Eyes of the Beast and TBW, you have to cancel it to move out of red fire/blue fire/blizzard/death rays/red doomfire/blue doomfire/falling rocks/random green crap/etc. Or worse, switching to EotB and getting tunnel vision while your Hunter is burnt to a crisp behind you.

Edit: Man, I need to update my avatar.

#28 Rosamonde

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 04:06 PM

Glyph of Mend Pet - has this been fixed to work with IMP yet (on the ptr)? if not we should add the caveat that it doesn't work with IMP (yet) and thus is "useless" if any points are put into IMP.

<snip>

The posted spec puts the t2 floater point in Endurance Training - is there any reason that would make it more valuable there than Improved Aspect of the Monkey for instance? I am thinking the extra dodge is nice when we are kiting - without speccing directly for it.
My thoughts are along the line; that with multiple hunters BM hunters are the better choice for kiting as we only loose half our dps while kiting (being able to send out pet on the target) compared to.. well every other kiting class that need to give up most of their dps. (SV hunters could possibly do okay damage from LnL procs off frost traps)


I had always regarded Aspect of the Monkey as being so useless for raiding that I never even considered putting a point in it, but you make a good point -- we do end up kiting a lot due to the Gluth fight. Can players dodge when hit from the back? I know bosses can, but I have very little experience meleeing.

I'll add a note to the OP about the Glyph of Mend Pet bug.

#29 Kinetics

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 04:29 PM

In regards to whether EotB was worth it or not, I found it to be fairly useless. I did some testing on a Boss dummy yesterday in IF and my results were quite terrible. I would pop BW, and then cast Eotb for about 2 seconds, and proceed to DPS the dummy. You'd expect to get the 200% damage from Nooska's rough math yesterday, but in all actuality you do less than you'd think. I didn't have any strong figures to present due to the fact that they were embarassing. It was that bad. I'll continue to keep testing but I really think the EotB glyph is more "flare" than "fire."

#30 TrevvyTrev

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 04:35 PM

I had always regarded Aspect of the Monkey as being so useless for raiding that I never even considered putting a point in it, but you make a good point -- we do end up kiting a lot due to the Gluth fight. Can players dodge when hit from the back? I know bosses can, but I have very little experience meleeing.


No, players can't dodge from the back, but you can get around this pretty easily with strafe techniques. I always put my floater in Improved Monkey for this reason, particularly once the bonus also applied to Dragonhawk. 1% more health isn't really noticeable in raid AoE situations, and in direct physical damage situations like kiting 2% dodge > 1% health.

#31 Rosamonde

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 04:55 PM

Trevvy and Nooska have convinced me that a point in Imp Aspect of the Monkey is superior to a point in Endurance, and I will change the OP accordingly.

#32 Azaurosa

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 04:55 PM

Is the BM spec going to be competitive against SV in 3.1? I do miss BM dearly and would love to switch back, but I also have this obsession with being in the top 5 in raid DPS.

#33 Kinetics

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 05:07 PM

Is the BM spec going to be competitive against SV in 3.1? I do miss BM dearly and would love to switch back, but I also have this obsession with being in the top 5 in raid DPS.


I'd like to think it will be. Survival is getting some nerfs/buffs, but it all depends on what you mean by "competitive." If you mean in strict terms of DPS, then maybe because of BM's "new" buffs. For example the IAoTH buff, which still nobody knows what that will be. Shark Attack/Wild hunt will be a significant DPS increase. The pet DPS increases/hitbox hotfixes/Spirit Beast hit rating fixes. All of these things will come into play. I'd love to think it will keep up in DPS with a 3.1 Survival hunter, but I don't think it will become the "cookie cutter" tree like it used to be. We'll see though I guess.

#34 Mattaos

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 06:23 PM

Is the BM spec going to be competitive against SV in 3.1? I do miss BM dearly and would love to switch back, but I also have this obsession with being in the top 5 in raid DPS.


I have never really understood these type of questions. There are no real concrete answers to this question yet until raids start fully dive into Uldar. I highly doubt we will ever see a huge disparity in DPS between the 3 specs like we saw in late TBC for BM. SV is currently the stronger of the 3 specs for raid DPS, but is taking some hits with 3.1 and BM is gaining some DPS power. Remember that that buff is to our pets mostly and will Uldar be as forgiving to our pets as Naxx?

I would love to see BM buffed to a point that it is a viable raiding spec for min/max'rs. Duel spec could allow the use of both SV and BM (or even MM) depending on the fight. I know that option would have been great during Sunwell, i.e. Felmyst.

In short, you will not find the answer you seek in this or any other threads yet. Wait another week or so for 3.1 to hit and we dive into Uldar reporting numbers supporting one spec vs. another. I believe you find that BM will be able to hold its own for the most part given the proper gear/enchant/gemming rolling the most DPS potential into the pet.

#35 Azaurosa

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 06:52 PM

I know it's still a little premature, but most people knew that after BM was nerfed that SV was going to be the best raiding spec. I just like to be prepared to make the necessary changes.

#36 Kinetics

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 07:17 PM

I know it's still a little premature, but most people knew that after BM was nerfed that SV was going to be the best raiding spec. I just like to be prepared to make the necessary changes.


Well it just depends on the hunter's type of playstyle. I was BM from 1-80, went survival at 3.0.8 "To deal with the BM nerfs," and finally went back to BM a few days ago. Just because I'm not pulling 5k as BM in 25 mans doesn't mean I don't know how to play my toon. I'm perfectly fine with pulling 4k, knowing the raid will benefit from my FI. Hunter versatility I think is more key when you look at the construct of your raid. Survival is nothing but DPS, BM still has its uses IMO. Everyone is different, but most people assumed that the nerf was so hardcore to BM that nobody would ever go back. I feel proud to see a few die hard raiders still as BM, like Rosa and myself for example. Once 3.1 comes out I think the hunters will be a mix between all 3 trees for a change and there won't be one specific way to maximize DPS anymore.
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#37 Mattaos

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 07:52 PM

Well it just depends on the hunter's type of playstyle. I was BM from 1-80, went survival at 3.0.8 "To deal with the BM nerfs," and finally went back to BM a few days ago. Just because I'm not pulling 5k as BM in 25 mans doesn't mean I don't know how to play my toon. I'm perfectly fine with pulling 4k, knowing the raid will benefit from my FI. Hunter versatility I think is more key when you look at the construct of your raid. Survival is nothing but DPS, BM still has its uses IMO. Everyone is different, but most people assumed that the nerf was so hardcore to BM that nobody would ever go back. I feel proud to see a few die hard raiders still as BM, like Rosa and myself for example. Once 3.1 comes out I think the hunters will be a mix between all 3 trees for a change and there won't be one specific way to maximize DPS anymore.


This is a great point. I unfortunately need to remain high on DPS for the raids sake and my own obsessions. BM can still put up decent DPS numbers, but will not be top of the meters. The buffs coming in 3.1 will boost that DPS potential by quite a bit making a BM a viable DPS spec, but whether it can match/overtake SV is still yet to be seen.

A point to make based on a comment above that the community knew pretty quick that SV would be the new DPS spec after BM took hardcore nerfs in 3.0.8 was because the nerfs were severe enough to drop BM way down. The buff to ES was easy to calculate as a DPS boost since it was direct effect to the hunter, which will always attack during a fight. The buffs coming for BM are directly effecting the pet and whether the fights will be pet friendly is yet to be seen on live.

#38 TrevvyTrev

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 08:17 PM

Survival is nothing but DPS, BM still has its uses IMO.


In all fairness, SV brings replenishment, which is the only hunter raid buff that the developers specifically said they assume every raid will have. That's not to say they don't consider all raid buffs, but they assume that if you are doing things without replenishment then you are making things harder on yourself. There are other sources for it (as with FI) but that doesn't mean that it isn't considered important.

#39 Kinetics

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 08:56 PM

In all fairness, SV brings replenishment, which is the only hunter raid buff that the developers specifically said they assume every raid will have. That's not to say they don't consider all raid buffs, but they assume that if you are doing things without replenishment then you are making things harder on yourself. There are other sources for it (as with FI) but that doesn't mean that it isn't considered important.


Regarding Replenishment.

It IS beneficial yes, but there are plenty of other classes that have mana regen for everyone else. Pallys, Shamans, and Shadow Priests. Even if you have 1 point in hunting party, it only goes to 10 raid members. For example a hunter with a base of 12,000 mana with the 1 point in hunting party. That is only 300 mana that is getting replenished periodically. Whereas other classes like Pallys, Shamans, and SPriests, I would consider to have a greater raid-wide mana replenishment. Most SV hunters have one of the cookie cutter 5/15/51 builds with no points in Hunting Party. Although it is a "semi raid-wide" buff, its not as important compared to some of the other classes. So I wouldn't consider it as a priority for having a hunter solely for this buff. SV hunters at the moment are there for their DPS, at least the way I see it. Correct me if I'm wrong also.
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#40 Steelfleece

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 09:01 PM

Glyph of Mend Pet - has this been fixed to work with IMP yet (on the ptr)? if not we should add the caveat that it doesn't work with IMP (yet) and thus is "useless" if any points are put into IMP.


It's been a while since I've been on the PTR, but from what I can remember, yes, it was fixed.
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