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Raiding with Beast Mastery in 3.3.3 and beyond


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#41 Rosamonde

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 09:19 PM

I too would love to see one of each type of hunter in our raids, with all of them having a shot at top dps if geared and played correctly. My guild is not very hard-core, and I am in fact able to top the meter on most boss fights using my BM spec -- certainly in the top 5 and often number 1 unless it is a gimmick fight where the buff does not apply to my pet or I am kiting zombies for the umpteenth time. If I were to fall to the middle of the pack or become an outright liability in Ulduar, I would have to consider speccing SV if it emerges as a much higher damage spec in 3.1. As it is, I am able to indulge my personal preferences while still performing well.

Spreadsheet modeling with my own gear using the current version (86d, released today) shows SV to be about 250 dps higher than BM -- this without regemming for agility, so presumably the gap is a bit larger. Not a huge deficit by any means, and BM ought to be competitive in all but the most elite guilds. But we still need to see how it looks when 3.1 is live.

#42 Nagisamuro

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 09:19 PM

Regarding Replenishment.

It IS beneficial yes, but there are plenty of other classes that have mana regen for everyone else. Pallys, Shamans, and Shadow Priests. Even if you have 1 point in hunting party, it only goes to 10 raid members. For example a hunter with a base of 12,000 mana with the 1 point in hunting party. That is only 300 mana that is getting replenished periodically. Whereas other classes like Pallys, Shamans, and SPriests, I would consider to have a greater raid-wide mana replenishment. Most SV hunters have one of the cookie cutter 5/15/51 builds with no points in Hunting Party. Although it is a "semi raid-wide" buff, its not as important compared to some of the other classes. So I wouldn't consider it as a priority for having a hunter solely for this buff. SV hunters at the moment are there for their DPS, at least the way I see it. Correct me if I'm wrong also.


The hunter's mana pool is irrelevent in valuating the replenishment he brings to the raid. Replenishment grants mana based on the mana pool of the person who is getting the buff, not giving the buff. So whether the Replenishment buff comes from a hunter, a ret pally, or a shadow priest the effect is the same - 10 people are getting mana back in amounts commensurate with their own mana pools.

Whether you should have it in your spec is entirely dependent on whether your raid needs another source of replenishment. If your regular raid group already has two or more replenishment providers, I could see not taking the talent.

Keep in mind that GC was talking about healer mana regen when he stated that they are balancing content on the assumption of replenishment. So it's not a question of

personal_dps_without_hunting_party <> raid_dps_with_replenishment

Rather, it's

personal_dps_without_hunting_party <> raid_dps_with_replenishment + healers_not_going_oom

which tends to be a harder calculation to nail down. As a raid healer, I can tell you the differences between 0, 1 and 2+ replenishment sources in a 25 man raid are quite noticeable.

[edit] Apologies for shitting up the BM thread with replenishment talk.

#43 Nooska

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 09:24 PM

Replenishment is 0.25% (is this getting changed in 3.1.?) every second for X second (can't remember)

"only 10 raid members" well 2 replenishers who cn keep a 100% uptime means all the raid has replenishment at all times, I assume any 25 player raid s runnning with at least 5 non-mana users.

Whether survival brings replenishmet seems to be a personal consideration (for some weird reason) rather than a raid consideration - this is what I'm getting from the discussion about sv hunters. It might be because I'm a raid officer that I find this odd, but I do find it odd that it is considered a personal choice whether to spec for a raid buff or not - but thats a severe sidetrack.

On that note though, who is it that can cover FI for us? Ret pallies? and do we actually have anything else we could / would want to spend the 3 points on?

#44 Rosamonde

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 09:25 PM

Regarding Replenishment -- I play both a mage and a hunter, and the differences in mana regen are quite different for the two. Basically, hunters get much better mana regen from Judgment of Wisdom, while casters and particularly healers (who do not directly hit the boss) benefit more greatly from Replenishment.

So Replenishment is a larger benefit to the raid as a whole than it might seem from the hunter's perspective. However, it is perfectly true that a number of other classes can also provide it, and it is hardly necessary for every hunter to provide this buff. If SV still put up the damage numbers that they did in BC, no one would be clamoring for them to bring Replenishment to the raid!


On that note though, who is it that can cover FI for us? Ret pallies? and do we actually have anything else we could / would want to spend the 3 points on?


I would still spend the points on FI for the sake of the increased damage to Arcane Shot.

#45 TrevvyTrev

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 09:28 PM

Of course you don't bring a Survival hunter just for replenishment. You don't bring a BM hunter just for FI either. That isn't what I said. I just said that you can't say that SV is "nothing but dps" because they bring something else besides dps. Whether an individual raid needs that from the SV hunter or whether it's covered by someone else is beside the point -- and even if that were the point it applies to BM hunters too, since retadins bring the same buff in better fashion.

Replenishment is a required raid buff. And I've been in raids of both sizes where a survival hunter is the only class that brings it. Of all the hunter buffs, that is the ONLY one that a developer has singled out as being considered by them as "required." So to say that Survival hunters are nothing but dps when they also happen to be capable of bringing an important raid buff if needed doesn't make sense, especially when that may be the most important one as far as they are concerned. Mana regen is overlooked right now because mana comes too easy, which is why they are nerfing it for non-dps classes. But spirit regen is nerfed, druid mana costs are increasing, mana spring totem and blessing of wisdom no longer stack, and content is going to just plain be harder so it's still too early to assume that mana regen specs are an afterthought.

ALL hunter specs are brought mostly for their dps. And they all bring something else too. Fair is fair.

#46 Kinetics

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 09:36 PM

Yeah you're right, I just look at the main focus of the classes and what they are brought to the raids for. I wasn't trying to shit on replenishment either, I just never thought it was as useful for a hunter or the 10 other members for the raid. I was just thinking FI was a better buff coming from a BM hunter. If anything Trueshot Aura should be the best hunter buff brought to a raid. In most 25 man raids, there are "usually" plenty of pallys for all 3 buffs to go out. That'd be why I never spec'd into hunting party because it never seemed like that big of a deal to throw my point into. I'd rather have 3/3 in Expose Weakness. Sorry for pissing people off.
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#47 Nooska

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 09:43 PM

@ TrevvyTrev and Hellusion

I did not get pissed off, and wasn't aiming at either of you with my wonderment.

I have just seen a few too many survival hunters thinking purely about their own dps and directly or indirectly saying that the replenishment doesn't matter because they don't get anything from speccing into it. Its just a peeve of mine that personal dps gets weighted over checking with raid officers whether their buffs are needed (which they are more often than not in our raid com) :o)

I can see my post could easily be construed as aimed at your comments right here, which it wasn't, and I apologize - I can only claim the late hour (almost midnight here) and slight fatigue fro moving around a 100 kg bed today :o)

#48 Kinetics

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 09:47 PM

@ TrevvyTrev and Hellusion

I did not get pissed off, and wasn't aiming at either of you with my wonderment.

I have just seen a few too many survival hunters thinking purely about their own dps and directly or indirectly saying that the replenishment doesn't matter because they don't get anything from speccing into it. Its just a peeve of mine that personal dps gets weighted over checking with raid officers whether their buffs are needed (which they are more often than not in our raid com) :o)

I can see my post could easily be construed as aimed at your comments right here, which it wasn't, and I apologize - I can only claim the late hour (almost midnight here) and slight fatigue fro moving around a 100 kg bed today :o)


Haha my bad, I know exactly where you're coming from. I just assumed points that were being used in Hunting Party could've gone elsewhere. :P
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#49 Kinetics

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 10:56 PM

Alrighty time for a new topic. Has anyone noticed that Rabid for pets doesn't always proc when it should every 31.5 seconds? I find that my pet uses Rabid "when he wants to." I've actually had to go out of my way sometimes to click Rabid in order for him to actually use it. I've even though of putting it in my Steady Shot macro. Anyone else having this problem?
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#50 zeroKFE

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 11:02 PM

Alrighty time for a new topic. Has anyone noticed that Rabid for pets doesn't always proc when it should every 31.5 seconds? I find that my pet uses Rabid "when he wants to." I've actually had to go out of my way sometimes to click Rabid in order for him to actually use it. I've even though of putting it in my Steady Shot macro. Anyone else having this problem?


Yes, it's actually been there since before 3.0.8, although I'm not quite sure how long.

My solution is exactly what you suggested: I turn off auto-cast, and macro it with Steady Shot.

#51 TrevvyTrev

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 02:28 AM

In the latest spreadsheet (v86d), Serpent Glyph edges out Hawk by a small margin (about 3 dps for me). The previous version had a bug that was using max mana for JoW instead of base mana, leading to enormous mana regen and zero Viper time. Serpent translates into higher dps because the mana saved from fewer applications over time translates into less Viper time.

I mention that because it's a metric people can use to decide which is better. If in actual gameplay, you don't find yourself in any mana trouble, then Hawk probably is better. Otherwise Serpent might have the edge. As always the spreadsheet gives a more definitive answer for any person.

#52 Nooska

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 12:03 PM

What we can conclude if I'm not mistaken is that 2 of our 3 major glyphs are "mandatory" Bestial Wrath and Steady Shot.
Bestial Wrath because this is our damage cooldown and Steady Shot because we want to have SrS up anyway, and is thus a 10% bonus to our spam shot.

The last one is open for Serpent Sting Glyph, Hawk glyph or in 3rd place (if you have greater dps in AotB than AotDh) Beast glyph. The better choce to be determined for the actual gear you have - though somehow I don't see SrS glyph actually providing a bigger dps increase over an additional 6% haste to our autoshots. (I refer back to the 105 seconds having to pass to gain 2 GCD's for extra steadies)
SrS glyph is of course still a very valid choice as it keeps up SrS for longer and is thus easier to keep up when moving - or when boss moves out of range.

#53 Nooska

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 12:11 PM

Glyph of Killshot

For some reason I have completely forgotten this glyph. Noone else has mentioned it and I assume thats because the rest of you have also forgotten this new glyph; Has anyone done any calculations on what value this glyph has for us? I would reduce steadies in the kill phase by a nice amount for our most damaging shot. I know that it can outperform the steady shot glyph - dependant on fight length and amount of time in the kill phase, but I don't consider that to be valid as we don't change glyphs on a fight - to - fight basis.
The question is, I think, how much time in the kill phase would we need for this to outperform SrS or Hawk glyphs?


Edit:

In my current gear, I show the crossover point to be a 10 minute fight (assuming 1% fight time per 1% health, so 2 minutes in the kill phase). at this point the dps is practically identical when I switch out the glyphs.

Looking at a wws of our last naxx run, the longest fight we have is Kel'Thuzad at 6.14, so with regards to live fights Kill Shot glyph doesn't outperform Hawk.
Also the kill phase is faster per % boss health than the other 80% simply by virtue of unlocking the big execution abilities.

Edit 2: Cancel that, I just noticed the default target in the spreadsheet is a target dummy with less armor then a boss. With the higher armor on the boss Kill Shot glyph and Hawk glyph are neck and neck at 6 minutes / 1.2 Minute Kill phase.

#54 daragh

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 02:42 PM

I'm a little bit skeptic about the kill shot glyph, sure it's something that would work well in an overall circumstance where when your carving your way to a boss, you'll actually use it alot more... well as in the boss fight itself the steady shot glyph comes into use alot more. Now using the serpent sting glyph you get an additional 6secs worth of damage and u still buff up your steady with 10% so what i'm interested in seeing is if in a long run through an instance, the combo Serpent sting/steady shot produces more DPS than having the killshot glyph instead of either one of the aforementioned.

#55 Nooska

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 03:48 PM

From my spreadsheet data, and the math I did over in one of the other threads, I'm not convinced SrS glyph is any sort of dps increase over the other glyphs we can take.

1. We need to take BW glyph
2. Steady Glyph is mandatory as our only other shot is Arcane shot, so we need to buff steady.
3. One major left, with 3 or 4 choices

1. SrS Glyph - this is what most of us are runnning with now, but its actual dps increase is very slight
2. Hawk glyph - this increases our autoshot frequency - a shot that does more damage than steadyshot. TrevvyTrev is completely right in the statement "don't underestimate autoshot" - this is also the best scaling shot as it scales by weapon damage and ammo, but gains 100% RAP scaling.
3. Kill Shot Glyph. The real value is left to be seen, but it has been demonstrated that the relative value of it compared to the others don't change with fight duration - barring the fights where you will only get off 1 killshot regardless.
4. Aspect of the Beast - very individual - it had a good increase in dps for me, but Hawk is better currently due to autoshots.

My current thinking is to run with hawk as my 3rd - having to reapply SrS 2 more times in 105 seconds isn't a big hassle, and the increased rate of autoshots make up for the 2 lost steadies.

Also increased RoF increases the value of a trinket that works like Fot5F because we build up the stacks faster.

#56 Kinetics

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 05:03 PM

1. SrS Glyph - this is what most of us are runnning with now, but its actual dps increase is very slight
2. Hawk glyph - this increases our autoshot frequency - a shot that does more damage than steadyshot. TrevvyTrev is completely right in the statement "don't underestimate autoshot" - this is also the best scaling shot as it scales by weapon damage and ammo, but gains 100% RAP scaling.
3. Kill Shot Glyph. The real value is left to be seen, but it has been demonstrated that the relative value of it compared to the others don't change with fight duration - barring the fights where you will only get off 1 killshot regardless.
4. Aspect of the Beast - very individual - it had a good increase in dps for me, but Hawk is better currently due to autoshots.

My current thinking is to run with hawk as my 3rd - having to reapply SrS 2 more times in 105 seconds isn't a big hassle, and the increased rate of autoshots make up for the 2 lost steadies.


I would have to also agree with Nooska on AotH glyph. Somehow it just seems more viable throughout the fight having increased autoshots. Seeing that our autoshots are a good majority of our damage, then it would make the most sense to keep this glyph. AotB's 2%, on top of the 10% from the aspect, doesn't seem like that much of DPS for taking the major glyph position. Maybe instead if it was like 5-10% more then I'd probably take it. Kill Shot will be the defining kicker I'd think due to the amount of damage output in the last 20% of the boss with the glyph reducing 6 seconds off of the 15. From there if someone can come up with the math if you would wind up getting more DPS in that last 20% of the fight with Kill Shots. Or would you get more DPS throughout the entire fight by having the 6% increase for AotH? IMO Hawk would be more beneficial because it is throughout the entire fight and not just the last 20%. Any other thoughts?
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#57 Mattaos

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 06:02 PM

I have just seen a few too many survival hunters thinking purely about their own dps and directly or indirectly saying that the replenishment doesn't matter because they don't get anything from speccing into it. Its just a peeve of mine that personal dps gets weighted over checking with raid officers whether their buffs are needed (which they are more often than not in our raid com) :o)


Just to keep things on the up and up about our roles. A more hardcore raiding hunter is going min/max his toon to produce the very thing he/she is in the raid to do primarily... DPS. The added benefits of TSA, FI or HP are ancillary benefits of our specs. Typically FI and TSA have been staples of BM and MM builds respectively. SV used to provide EW, but that has now changed to HP. Most well formed 25 man raids include plenty of replenishment resources from classes that already have themselves accustomed to providing that benefit to the raid. Hunters are not accustomed to this.

Also, consider that we are a pure DPS class. DPS is the main focus. Replenishment in most cases (for a raider) is an after thought and usually only going to be an option if the raid comp is lacking enough replenishment. We find this more in 10 man raids, but 25 man raiding is whole other ball game. Just remember that hunters bring DPS first. Think of it like this... What is your duel spec going to be and why? What will most raiding hybrid classs duel spec?

Back on track, as to not derail the BM focused thread... BM does need to bring a certain degree of DPS power to be a viable raiding spec. From the things I am reading and playing with the spreadsheet it appears that BM is a decent DPS raiding spec. It may not be the primo choice for more hardcore raiders looking to squeeze out 1 more point of DPS on any given boss encounter, but certainly has enough firepower between hunter/pet synergy to be competitive.

A good topic to start rolling with might be what stat, gem and gear choices will be most beneficial to max DPS potential for a BM hunter?

Attack Power has definitely been a focus stat. But, as gem stats increase, as well as, item budgeting increases are going to see more benefit from agility? Honestly, without seeing or attempting any math I do not see an advantage strictly focusing agility for BM.

Crit is also a key stat since several talent hinge on our ability to crit, i.e. Cobra Strikes which in turn sparks Frenzy to keep FI and Invig up more often. Agility provides both of these stats, but AP transfers to pets and crit does not. I have always seen (in WotLK) more benefit from stacking AP and supplementing straight crit thru gear or gems.

#58 Nooska

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 06:15 PM

On the stat discussion:

From playing around with the current spreadsheet and fictively gearing up I se that agility (per budget point) gets closer to ap.

This makes sense from the perspective; The more AP you have, the more crit, arp, haste etc is worth as they all go together.

AP is still the clear winner, but agi gets pretty close. The main reason I would prefer to not take agi is that I gain more pure ap from ap and that in a raid environment I have enough crit to keep up cobra strikes most of the time.

The combination of cobra strikes and my pets own crit rate keeps up frenzy 100% in all practicality, and FI too.

FI is not a thing we can spec out of - its an all or nothing talent, and there is no other place to really put those 3 points. If they adopted the suggestion I made to change Mend Pet (linked in pet management thread) I could possibly see us putting 2 of those points in mend pet with the last going into a possible monkey. This would of course require that someone else had the FI effect (thats retridins improved aura, isn't it?) but I don't see anywhere else those points could go anyway.

#59 Rosamonde

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 08:03 PM

Regarding glyphs, I have been using Bestial Wrath, Steady, and Hawk all along. I tested out Serpent Sting and didn't like what it did to my rotation, and the spreadsheet also showed these three as the best for me.

In the spreadsheet, I tried adding the Kill Shot glyph in place of each of the others, but it did not out-perform my original set-up. Like Trevvy, I find in the very latest spreadsheet (v.86d) that Glyph of Serpent Sting gives about 2 more dps than Glyph of the Hawk. Given the small difference I will not be replacing it at this time; if gear upgrades increase the gap, I would of course rethink. Quick shooting is one of the hallmarks of the BM hunter, and I feel Glyph of the Hawk better fits the spec's synergy.

#60 Anindor

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 08:53 PM

But, since BM hunters are already at haste soft cap, doesn't the Glyph of AotH provide a much lesser benefit than to a hunter not at soft haste cap?




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