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Best Raid DPS from overlapping buffs


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#21 catch22atplay

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 08:20 PM

As for a Fury warrior. For a dps gain in 25 mans you spec out of booming voice and Commanding presence. Since in 10 mans you loose Might you must spec back into Booming voice and Commanding presence. So no it's not really a loss to dps per say. It's more you must spec this way to not loose as much dps. Not only does it benefit the individual Fury warrior's dps but it helps the other physical dps classes as well. So there really isn't a choice here. However if you stacked Paladins or added an Arms warrior to the 10 man then it wouldn't be needed as they would provide the buff.

#22 Capstone

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 08:53 PM

frmorrison: I had missed the 3.1 selfishness of UR for Enh Shamans, good call. But damnit, now I have to recruit another one. I also fail to see how doubling the effect of Retribution Aura (or whatever aura he's using) with Aura Mastery doesn't qualify as a worthwhile raid Buff. Certainly Divine Sacrifice and Divine Guardian provide excellent utility, but my current assumption is that Protection Paladins are the best source of this buff given the additional desire for Blessing of Sanctuary.




Aura Mastery only doubles the base effect of the Aura for a few seconds every two minutes. In the case of Retribution Aura, enemies would take 200 holy damage for attacking a PC instead of 100. Not exactly earthshaking. It's not going to be a core talent for any spec of paladin.

Also, after 3.1, you will have to take into consideration that Fire mages will apply 5% and Frost mages will apply the other 5%.


Winter's Chill and Improved Scorch do not stack, before or after 3.1.

#23 Orrion

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 12:47 AM

Yea, Enhancement are going to be spec'ing UR regardless of anything else, since we'll get 9 Expertise from doing so. Nobody will pass that up. It makes 10% atk power a non-issue, really. Marks Hunters, Blood DKs and Enhance Shaman automatically pick up their version of the this buff - the first because it's 1 talent point and the latters because of personal benefit.

20% melee haste is a little more of an issue - If you have a Frost DK, I believe they usually pick up the talent. It requires they Icy Touch, though, and has talent prereqs, but they gain 5% haste from the talent itself. Enhancement puts 2 points into Imp. Windfury for 4% haste and no benefit. Frost DK would be the better choice, imo, given the option.

#24 Erdluf

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 12:11 PM

Moonkin:

E&M: 13% Spell damage is free (single target), but may not be up until 10s into fight depending on opening sequence.

IFF: Minor armor debuff and 3% spell hit. In 3.1 is 1 GCD every 5 minutes (per target). In 3.09 it is every 40s (3% DPS loss).

Moonkin Form: 3% Haste and 5% crit. Passive.

Insect Swarm: 3% miss debuff. Usually 'kin Glyph out of this for extra DPS. Losing the glyph is about a 1% to 1.5% DPS loss. Usually uptime for IS is around 70%. Requiring 100% uptime would hurt DPS by a little (I'd guess 0.5% to 1.5%).

#25 Copernicus

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 10:40 PM

Frost mages won't have a DPS loss strictly due to maintaining the debuff (or Replinishment) since it is applied with our No. 1 spell (Frostbolt). The only time we would not be doing something that maintains both the debuff and replinishment is if we are using a Fireball from a Brain Freeze, Ice Lancing on a Fingers of Frost (keeps the debuff running, but not replinshment) or when we have to be highly mobile due to some fight mechanic.


The main problem with Frost Mages is that they do less DPS than the other basic mage specs. If the raid needs Replenishment, than a mage should respec to get the ability. But it's not the optimal choice for bringing the buff.

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IFF: Minor armor debuff and 3% spell hit. In 3.1 is 1 GCD every 5 minutes (per target). In 3.09 it is every 40s (3% DPS loss).


For IFF, do Moonkin have other options to take with their talents? The main question is - if you had the option to spec out of IFF because the debuffs were provided by a Feral Druid Tank and a Shadow Priest, would you do so for a different talent?

#26 charriu

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 06:33 AM

For IFF, do Moonkin have other options to take with their talents? The main question is - if you had the option to spec out of IFF because the debuffs were provided by a Feral Druid Tank and a Shadow Priest, would you do so for a different talent?


The talent provides 3% crit on targets affected with ANY faerie fire, so probably no.

#27 Boevis

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 08:01 AM

So long as the raid contains a properly specced Spriest, there's no reason for a Moonkin to cast Faerie Fire (in fact, it becomes detrimental if you're also using a Feral Tank). Taking the iFF talent is a DPS boost (but is likely one of the first dropped to gain mana regen), casting it is what causes the DPS loss.

#28 Prinsesa

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 05:11 AM

So long as the raid contains a properly specced Spriest, there's no reason for a Moonkin to cast Faerie Fire (in fact, it becomes detrimental if you're also using a Feral Tank). Taking the iFF talent is a DPS boost (but is likely one of the first dropped to gain mana regen), casting it is what causes the DPS loss.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a thread in the tanking forums a while back confirming that Feral Faerie Fire can be applied to a mob regardless of the presence of Misery or IFF debuffs, assuming the detriment you're referring to is a Bear tank being unable to access FFF's threat.
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#29 tasha

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 06:39 AM

Some minor updates...

Damage % Buff
-> BM Hunters can keep it up as long as their pet is alive and attacking something.

Damage Reduction % Buff
-> In 3.1, Discipline priests can easily keep it up on the whole raid.

Armor (major) Debuff
Armor (minor) Debuff

-> I think there are Hunters' pets who can do those as well (BM only though). Really case-specific anyway.

Armor % Buff
-> It seems Holy Priests will be reluctant to take this talent now that their tank healing efficiency is limited. Discipline Priests will have it.

Melee Haste Buff
-> DKs need to spend 6 talent points for only 5% haste as personal benefit. A frost dps DK will do it (to go up the tree), but a Frost tank has much better options for those talent points. An enhancement shaman needs 2 points.

Attack Power Buff
-> A Holy paladin can take the 2 improved points for BoM instead of 2 seconds less on judgments' cd.

Shamans' mana spring totem is now raid wide and doesn't stack with BoW. (Improved totem is resto spec).

#30 Tharia

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 10:17 AM

Armor (major) Debuff
Armor (minor) Debuff

-> I think there are Hunters' pets who can do those as well (BM only though). Really case-specific anyway.


Major is from worms which are exotic pets, so BM only. They lose quite a lot of dps from it as it is not a ferocity pet, didn't check the exact numbers.
Minor is from wasps which can be used by every hunter, loss of about 150 dps when used instead of a wolf according to the spreadsheet.

#31 Boevis

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 01:24 PM

I hadn't noticed this before, but Disc Priests can easily have 100% uptime of the 3% DR on the whole raid: Renewed Hope. That takes some pressure off of having to bring a Prot Pally.

#32 sordee

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 09:46 PM

Might be a stupid question:
But in a 25 man, which warrior is the best option for taking Imp Demo Shout in raid?
Prot Warrior, Arms or Fury?

#33 Boevis

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 02:14 AM

That's a tough question, probably an arms warrior because he's less likely to ever spec into improved cleave. Aside from that, they're basically the same at that point of the tree.

#34 LittleHamster

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 10:02 AM

Might be a stupid question:
But in a 25 man, which warrior is the best option for taking Imp Demo Shout in raid?
Prot Warrior, Arms or Fury?


It's a dps loss for dps warriors to take up imp demo shout. On the other hand, it's quite easy for a prot warrior to pick up imp demo shout in a survival/progression build. I got these two from a tankspot post.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

These are ofc not threat oriented builds. If you must use a dps warrior for it, fury struggles more with rage at the moment and will benefit from unbridled wrath more. Arms will be the better choice.

#35 Shha

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 04:10 AM

Wrong about the warrior choice.

a) Unless you have TWO dps warriors, its better if one of other classes get imp demo. Imp commanding is helpful
B) If you have two, make fury use it. While the argument about unbridled wrath is correct, the dps lost by arms by wasting around 1 gcd per 15 sec (counting the occasional resist and a safety measure of 20 sec reapplying to account for it), is far more then dps lost by fury for the rage cost + lower ubridled (fury has enough free gcds).

#36 Poromu

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 12:59 PM

Just a note, with the change to FF making it a 5 minute PvE duration it's really a very miniscule almost immeasureable ammount of dps lost from applying it as Balance. However when you have a feral and a spriest you would be starting your dps rotation so it's really just a call of fight mechanics (one mob or several) that would judge it out, optimal raid setup the feral does it and spriest covers misery.

#37 BoomBeef

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 07:24 PM

As far as a unique Health buff, as Arms spec one can get Commanding Presence and do the more enhanced Commanding shout. It is incorrect to say it is only done by Fury warriors or Fury spec.

And as Shha said, DPS loss is significant for Arms spec warriors to Demo shout simply because of the GCD issues. If you had to pick, have Fury or Prot spec debuff with Demo shout and have Arms buff the Commanding shout.

I would like to know if Ferals loose any DPS% to Demo roar or not. Interesting to note Locks loose 6% DPS on their version.

#38 kalbear

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 08:50 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a thread in the tanking forums a while back confirming that Feral Faerie Fire can be applied to a mob regardless of the presence of Misery or IFF debuffs, assuming the detriment you're referring to is a Bear tank being unable to access FFF's threat.

That's correct; Feral Faerie fire and IFF are independent. The only 'loss' would be if a feral cat put up FFF instead of a feral bear.

I would like to know if Ferals loose any DPS% to Demo roar or not. Interesting to note Locks loose 6% DPS on their version.

For a feral, it takes 3 GCDs per 30 seconds to reapply this assuming they're in cat. One to change to bear, one to demo roar, one to change back to cat. It's a pretty significant hit to their DPS; I haven't figured it out precisely, but you're going to lose at least 12% melee attacks if you're doing that as well as potentially some energy depending on your furor.

#39 Boevis

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 10:38 PM

Since Catform can't demo roar (yet!) it's a very significant loss shifting to bear to keep it up

Our previous statements about Fury being the ones to keep it up was based on pre 3.1 when arms wasn't optimal dps, now with them being so close head to head, Arms likely wins out because of providing Trauma (+150 dps for feral druids if we don't have to mangle)

#40 Kysimir

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:13 PM

As Arms for my guild, I lose about ~300-700 DPS going from Normal Rotation to Sunder Rotations. The reason for the disparity is some fights are very sunder-unfriendly. XT Deconstructor comes to mind. I sunder the boss, get the bomb and have to run, sunder could fall off. Or heart is exposed, boss becomes immune to taunt, sunders DO fall off. Hence I must restart from 0. DPS races where I *HAVE* to get 5 stacks within 5 or 6s, I tend to lose more DPS as well. Whereas Hodir is closer to 300 DPS loss.

My rotation was posted in a jpg format here:

http://elitistjerks....33/#post1206190

Thunderclap is an insignificant DPS loss. I usually use it in lieu of Slam.
I never demo shout... so I'm unsure as to the loss there. :/

I can get you wws reports later, if you'd like. It may take me a while, as to get the same fight with roughly the same buffs, with me sundering and with a prot warrior sundering (we don't always have a prot warrior with us).




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