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Best Raid DPS from overlapping buffs


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#41 Naivedo

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 10:04 PM

Debuff - Spell Damage Taken: Best if used by an Unholy Death Knight when fighting more than a single mob because they can apply debuff to more than two targets after two global cool downs with Icy Touch (and/or Plague Strike) and Pestilence unlike Balance Druids. Pestilence can hit every mob within a 10 (15 glyphed) yard radius with a 100% chance to apply debuff. No damage lost.
* Balance Druids have a 100% chance to apply debuff to targets of their two direct damage abilities, Starfire and Wrath. No damage lost.
* Warlock - Curse of Elements - Self damage loss of 6%

Shorter Verison

Debuff - Spell Damage Taken: Unholy Death Knight - Multiple Targets. Talent increasing disease damage taken and improves critical strike chance with weapons and spells by {1/2/3}% at all times.
* Balance Druids - Single target only. Talent also increases spell damage by {1/2/3}%.
* Warlock - Curse of Elements - Self damage loss of 6%

#42 Njald

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 03:06 AM

Static Armor buffs should be included on front page in the OP.
While it's currently only two classes that have miniscule DPS gains from it it is still nice to know the values and the opportunity costs for each. Also, the main article includes Armor Debuffs so mitigation is clearly a part of this thread subject.

#43 Boevis

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 06:53 PM

Armor is being mentioned: Armor %: Holy Priest or Restoration Shaman

#44 Glory

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 03:35 AM

I think he means Devotion Aura (Paladin), Stoneskin Totem (Shaman).

Prot Paladin can strengthen his aura by 50% for 3 Talent Points which are also increasing incoming heal from all sources by 6% to all Units affected by his Devotion Aura. Taken by Prot Paladins its a direct Mitigation Talent. For Multi Tanking Bossfights like Freya or Thorim its a bonus for bringing 1 Prot Paladin.
Shaman can enhance his totem by 20% for 2 Talent Points, also decreasing Grounding Totem cd by 2 Sec. No Selfbonus.

#45 François

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 08:28 AM

Static armor buffs (devotion aura and stoneskin totem) aren't overlapping, as far as I know. It would be confusing if they were added to the front page in the OP.

#46 Whitemane

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 04:36 PM

Damage reduction %:

Discipline priests have Renewed Hope which gives a raid-wide reduction of damage by 3% for 20 seconds when PW:S is cast.

Melee Crit %:
Feral druids are optimal, fury warriors have lousy dps at the moment.

Damage %
Beastmastery hunters are terrible dps at the moment.

Replenishment:

This comes from survival hunters and the talent it comes from, although it does give extra stats besides replenishment, is considered a dps loss.

Armor (minor):

Balance druids should do this, the talent that improves faerie fire is now a personal dps gain to use and is part of normal balance rotations. Ferals due to being energy based can probably squeeze this in equally well.

Healing:
Marksman hunters apply this as part of their regular rotation, not 100% uptime though.

Melee hit chance:

Marksman hunters should be noted as a special case, they should be considered last to do it. 10-11% dps loss.

Spell hit:

Balance druids no longer suffer a DPS loss from giving this.

#47 Boevis

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 08:32 PM

Correction: It is most definitely still a DPS loss for Moonkin to apply Faerie Fire, albeit a very small one on single targets (1 global every 5 minutes), Misery is still the better option for +3% Spell Hit as it's free application on a selfish talent, and Feral Druids are the better source of Fearie Fire.

#48 Celdhyrean

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 10:21 PM

Correction: It is most definitely still a DPS loss for Moonkin to apply Faerie Fire, albeit a very small one on single targets (1 global every 5 minutes), Misery is still the better option for +3% Spell Hit as it's free application on a selfish talent, and Feral Druids are the better source of Fearie Fire.

The talent has become a core part of the build (for the +3% crit more than anything else) since the spell's duration has been changed to 5 minute (and since some confirmation by GC since the testing of a 3% crit chance is not a simple thing to do). Now we can basically make use of it by ourselves without any significant dps drop so it should in every moonkin's build.
Also, all moonkins should have it up on bosses. The dps cost is insignificant since you can cast it while moving (and it's easy to run out of other instants to cast while moving, for example during the pull). The benefit is a garantee that the debuff stays up on the boss at all times even if the spriest is off running somewhere or focusing something else.

E&M (13% magical damage debuff) : up at all times on a single target dps fight, not up at all on aoe phases (applying it would both be unrealistic since the debuff duration is low and a big dps loss for the moonkin).

#49 Iroared

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 06:24 PM

Few notes

1. Damage Reduction %
Disc priests' Renewed Hope is raidwide now, and has pretty much 100% uptime (lasts 20 seconds after casting PW:S).
2. Melee Haste
Frost DK's need to spend 6 talent points to provide 20% haste buff (5 of them are to provide the buff to self), whereas shaman needs 2 points to provide 20% haste.
3. Replenishment
The buff comes from Survival Hunters (not Marksmanship), also many hunters prefer to put less points into this ability or even skip it completely as self bonus is rather weak.

4. Crit Chance
Having 3 points in Master Poisoner would be unoptimal for DPS in most cases

#50 Boevis

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 11:07 PM

Regarding melee haste, would a DK Spend those 6 points elsewhere Improved Icy Talons still gives him 5% bonus Haste, and without them, the tree requires 4 talents that don't significantly increase DPS anyway, and I wonder if the 5% haste beats out the gain from a couple of the other points in there.

#51 mwaf

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 09:41 AM

Replenishment: - Optimal options -- Marksmanship Hunter, Shadow Priest, Retribution Paladin
* Destruction Warlock - Talent point DPS loss to pick up the ability?
* Frost Mage - Maintaining the debuff - ?? DPS loss. Also does not provide 100% Replenishment uptime.


Picking up the replenishment talent Improved Soul Leech is not a DPS loss for destruction warlocks. The reason for this is the personal mana gain for you and your pet resulting in less GCDs wasted on Life Tap.

Below is the SimulationCraft result of a T8 lock with three different specs. One with Improved Soul Leech one with the points in Suppression (and corresponding gear) and one with points in Unholy Power.

DPS Ranking:
  23222 100.0%  Raid
   7782  33.5%  Warlock_T8_00_13_58_ISL
   7744  33.3%  Warlock_T8_03_13_55_Supression
   7726  33.2%  Warlock_T8_00_18_53_Unholy_Power

Simcraft file:

#!simcraft max_time=300 optimal_raid=1 iterations=30000

warlock=Warlock_T8_00_13_58_ISL
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-ch...331051335230351
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=tender_shoveltusk_steak/fire_stone/fel_armor/summon_pet,imp
actions+=/curse_of_doom,time_to_die>=90/immolate/conflagrate/chaos_bolt/incinerate
Warlock_Filler.simcraft
Warlock_T8_Hit_Gear.simcraft
glyphs=conflagrate/incinerate/immolate

warlock=Warlock_T8_03_13_55_Supression
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-ch...331051035030351
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=tender_shoveltusk_steak/fire_stone/fel_armor/summon_pet,imp
actions+=/curse_of_doom,time_to_die>=90/immolate/conflagrate/chaos_bolt/incinerate
Warlock_Filler.simcraft
Warlock_T8_Gear.simcraft
glyphs=conflagrate/incinerate/life_tap

warlock=Warlock_T8_00_18_53_Unholy_Power
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-ch...331051035030351
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=tender_shoveltusk_steak/fire_stone/fel_armor/summon_pet,imp
actions+=/curse_of_doom,time_to_die>=90/immolate/conflagrate/chaos_bolt/incinerate
Warlock_Filler.simcraft
Warlock_T8_Hit_Gear.simcraft
glyphs=conflagrate/incinerate/immolate


On a personal note, I have dropped on of the points in Improved Soul Leech in order to pick up Soul Link for tanking Mimiron's head.

#52 WinterWind

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 09:34 PM

Melee Attack Speed Slow: Protection Warrior or Death Knight
* Protection Paladin - Self-loss of ??
* Feral Druid Tank - Self-loss of ??


For the Protection Paladin Melee Attack Speed Slow, the talent is a regularly taken one, although non Divinity Specc'd paladins can choose to place the points elsewhere, such as in Pursuit of Justice (depending on the spec details), the Divinity spec includes this talent, as it is the most reasonable one to get after all other necessities are taken.

The Divinity Spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

For Divinity spec Protection Paladins there is no dps loss that will affect whether the attempt is a wipe or kill under most conditions, as Heart of the Crusader and Improved Blessing of Might should be supplied by the Retribution Paladin in the raid, with possible exceptions being when the ret paladin is not on the same target, for example in p4 of Mimiron. Usually this will not be an issue, as the only fight that comes to mind where the lack of an immediate 2% crit buff (since you will only have 2/3 Heart of the Crusader unless you drop down to 4/5 Divinity) could possibly be the difference between a wipe and a kill is hardmode Mimiron25. On all other fights that come to mind there should be no problem. For example, the three-pack adds on Freya are rather soft, and your dps should have no problem with it; the snaplasher should be the only mob where the dps on it do not have Heart of the Crusader from the start, but non hardmode dps really should have no problem with it. Naxx25 gear is more than sufficient for it.

I'm not even going to consider pre-ulduar fights because if the raiders have any idea how to play their class (which they should if they are reading this, hi EJ!), they should have no issue with dps.

Also, non Divinity spec prot pallies will have 3/3 Heart of the Crusader and can also spec into 5/5 Conviction and 3/3 Crusade while speccing into 2/2Judgements of the Just (Judgements of the Just provides the melee attack speed reduction), so the dps loss for them is 2% self hit/crit and 10% Exorcism damage.

The exact numerical values for the damage losses I don't know, but that's what would be difference in terms of buffs.

#53 Jrk

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 09:11 PM

I am needing confirmation on mechanics.

I was under the impression that Mortal Strike and Furious Attacks stack, not together, bringing healing to 0% on the target, but to 25% (50% of 50%.)

If I am correct, are there any debuffs for healing reduction that do not stack, or stack differently than the 2 labeled above? I did check out the thread here. Only thing I could find was a listing of viable classes, not how the debuffs counteract.
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#54 Guest_Akymo_*

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 03:50 AM

Melee Crit: Feral Druid

Also works for ranged (hunters)

#55 BWarner

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 12:16 PM

Melee Crit: Feral Druid

Also works for ranged (hunters)


To expand on this, A Feral Druid outdoes a Fury Warrior in providing this buff for two reasons:

One, the Feral's version has 100% uptime (aura), whereas the Fury Warrior's is dependent on crits - that is, it is not 100% even given uninterrupted face-time with a mob, and it also requires the player to actually be on-target in the first place, which is not a given in highly mobile situations.

Two, the Feral's buff has the additional benefit of a passive heal to all raid members on each physical crit, with a 6 second ICD.

Cost-wise, neither is giving up anything to provide this buff. The additional heal effect costs 2 extra talents, but again, this does not negatively affect Feral DPS or tanking, as far as I am aware.


Jrk, I have not heard of this mechanic (multiplicative stacking of Mortal Strike and Furious attacks), but will check it out.

#56 Boevis

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 05:33 AM

It is a DPS/TPS loss to take the heal part of ilotp as a Feral.

To the below: As Both, there are talents that can be taken to increase DPS or Survivability as both cat and bear. In general, you'll be losing the points from FA, which is a very minor DPS loss for cat but a sizable survivability talent for bears (if -Boss AP isn't provided by someone else). There's other talents a druid might swap around, like Swipe damage or increased healing recieved.

#57 BWarner

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 03:52 PM

It is a DPS/TPS loss to take the heal part of ilotp as a Feral.


Cat, Bear, or both?

[edit] Gotcha. (To the edited post above)

#58 Friedrich

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 04:34 AM

To expand on this, A Feral Druid outdoes a Fury Warrior in providing this buff for two reasons:

One, the Feral's version has 100% uptime (aura), whereas the Fury Warrior's is dependent on crits - that is, it is not 100% even given uninterrupted face-time with a mob, and it also requires the player to actually be on-target in the first place, which is not a given in highly mobile situations.

Two, the Feral's buff has the additional benefit of a passive heal to all raid members on each physical crit, with a 6 second ICD.

Cost-wise, neither is giving up anything to provide this buff. The additional heal effect costs 2 extra talents, but again, this does not negatively affect Feral DPS or tanking, as far as I am aware.


Jrk, I have not heard of this mechanic (multiplicative stacking of Mortal Strike and Furious attacks), but will check it out.


Rampage buff duration is 10 seconds. The uptime will be extremely close to 100%: raid-buffed crit rates can exceed 40%, so if you don't get a crit in 10 seconds of dps, there is something seriously wrong.

On a separate note, 55/8/8 is a superior DPS spec for Arms warriors at higher levels of gear. This build has no option for either commanding presence or imp demo. In addition, Arms does not have free GCDs for Sunder Armor the way fury does, so I think that for everything except trauma, you should list "Fury warrior" and not "DPS warrior", since their raid utility is far superior in terms of what they can provide without significant personal DPS sacrifice.

#59 BWarner

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 08:14 PM

Rampage buff duration is 10 seconds. The uptime will be extremely close to 100%: raid-buffed crit rates can exceed 40%, so if you don't get a crit in 10 seconds of dps, there is something seriously wrong.

On a separate note, 55/8/8 is a superior DPS spec for Arms warriors at higher levels of gear. This build has no option for either commanding presence or imp demo. In addition, Arms does not have free GCDs for Sunder Armor the way fury does, so I think that for everything except trauma, you should list "Fury warrior" and not "DPS warrior", since their raid utility is far superior in terms of what they can provide without significant personal DPS sacrifice.


Physical Vulnerability (Blood Frenzy) is another buff that does not cost the Arms Warrior DPS.

The issue with Rampage is the time-on-target thing. Before the Fury Warrior lands his first crit at the start of an engagement, there is no +5% Physical Crit. If there is significant downtime (portals on Yogg as just one example), then Fury's buff uptime gets to drop a little. Whereas the Feral's is a passive aura.

#60 Anduryondon

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 05:14 PM

Regarding short boss phases (30-45sec), would it be better having 1-2 warriors stacking sunder or having a rogue with expose?




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