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#21 thedopefishlives

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 01:09 PM

I agree, it's a shame that there's no other way to keep the golems in the fire. If only there was something you could do that allowed the tank to not stand in fire!


I have no idea if this is sarcastic or not, but I believe the golems are rootable. (They are on 10-man, but we all know things don't always apply upwards.) The problem we ran into was this: We would root a golem, it would start building stacks, but then the scorch would run out and we couldn't break it loose of the roots before it started losing debuffs.

#22 Captain Winky

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 01:26 PM

We had several Slag Pot gibs in our 10-man Ignis tries last night, which really put a crimp in our learning the fight. That aside, the timer between adds is pretty tight, and lacking a reliable root makes control pretty tough. We attempted to have the tank drag an add through the pit and tank at the edge, with the add in the fire and the tank out, but their hitbox is pretty small and the margin for error was almost nonexistent. I'm sure it'll be easier with more people capable of rooting in the group. On the tries without gibs, it became a matter of being overrun and having the add tank die to a bunch of pissed-off golems. Once the bug is fixed, this fight will still be a coordination check, but a far more doable one.

By comparison, Razorscale was quite fun, and well-tuned for an early boss. The only annoying aspect of the fight that I could see was that the entirety of Phase 1 amounts to potential Kel'thuzad ice tombs at any time. A combination of fireball + blue fireball + 1st tick was pretty much a death from full health within ~2-3 seconds, especially on a stationary healer. We got around it by moving as much as possible, but even normal consecutive fireballs on anyone with less than full health would frequently cause a death. Still, it's far more controllable than the Ignis pot of doom.

Also, on Ignis, can I safely assume it's intended that immunity effects used during the Slag Pot kill the debuff entirely? It appeared that Cloak of Shadows and Paladin bubble would remove the debuff and stop the incoming damage, though the person would still be stuck in the pot for the full duration. Also, voiding the debuff in this way indeed resulted in not getting the haste buff that follows, which would make sense.

One more observation: Fire resistance turns out to be very potent for controlling the damage spikes in these fights. The 130 from Paladin aura was predictably causing 10-30% resists on almost every fireball, slag pot tick, etc. I suspect it was chosen for these early fights to make abundant use of a damage type that didn't have stackable resistance gear readily available, so they could fill their role as gear/skill checks and not be trivialized via resistance. Most of the really nasty damage in both of these fights would be far less dramatic if you could get over 300 fire resist with 2 pieces of gear, a la Sapphiron. Granted, you could still use your leftover BT gear, but I doubt the severe loss of stats would be anywhere near worth it.

#23 Elzam

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 01:56 PM

We spent a couple hours on Ignis on Tuesday evening in an admittedly non-optimal group, but regardless took a nearly BiS Warrior Tank, a Druid tank, and a moderately geared DK (fresh 80 to replace our old DK Tank).

Although Ignis is being killed, we just felt that the outgoing damage from Ignis' white damage was not reasonable at that point because of the job required of the offtank, the Slag Pot, and the unavoidable AOE fire bursts. We had several attempts in which a tank with what, natural buffed HP of 39-40k would eat Ignis white hits for 30-40k, making the likelihood of a 2-shot very realistic. I saw some posts on the R&D forums where others experienced this so I hope we're not the only sane people out there seeing these hits.

I know about the golem buff bug which was supposedly fixed, but we didn't even get any golems down as he would spawn up to 3 of them in the first minute before the off-tank could get any molten.

For some reason I just feel that Ignis is perhaps a little overtuned in consideration of his position in the instance. Yes he's optional, but he's in the starting "wing" and I guess I might be a minority in thinking that this should be the wing that gets raids "feeling" a ramping Ulduar difficulty.

#24 Cambriel

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 02:39 PM

I have no idea if this is sarcastic or not, but I believe the golems are rootable. (They are on 10-man, but we all know things don't always apply upwards.) The problem we ran into was this: We would root a golem, it would start building stacks, but then the scorch would run out and we couldn't break it loose of the roots before it started losing debuffs.


This was our difficulty as well. We were having a bit better luck with Chains of Ice over root, but it was still exceptionally difficult get 20 stacks. We'd get up to 19 constantly and then the scorch would end.

#25 katholas

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 02:54 PM

Interesting to note that Yogg drops the same ilevel gear as the rest of the bosses in the instance. Looks like the discussion in the PTR thread was rather moot. This could mean an end to the system of clearing a whole instance and DEing all the drops just for a shot at the end boss loot.

#26 Infuria

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 03:01 PM

We spent a couple hours on Ignis on Tuesday evening in an admittedly non-optimal group, but regardless took a nearly BiS Warrior Tank, a Druid tank, and a moderately geared DK (fresh 80 to replace our old DK Tank).

Although Ignis is being killed, we just felt that the outgoing damage from Ignis' white damage was not reasonable at that point because of the job required of the offtank, the Slag Pot, and the unavoidable AOE fire bursts. We had several attempts in which a tank with what, natural buffed HP of 39-40k would eat Ignis white hits for 30-40k, making the likelihood of a 2-shot very realistic. I saw some posts on the R&D forums where others experienced this so I hope we're not the only sane people out there seeing these hits.

I know about the golem buff bug which was supposedly fixed, but we didn't even get any golems down as he would spawn up to 3 of them in the first minute before the off-tank could get any molten.

For some reason I just feel that Ignis is perhaps a little overtuned in consideration of his position in the instance. Yes he's optional, but he's in the starting "wing" and I guess I might be a minority in thinking that this should be the wing that gets raids "feeling" a ramping Ulduar difficulty.


We experienced similar problems on Wednesday night. Ignus hits seemingly way too hard, to the point that he might need to be re-tuned. Have people really been downing him?

It doesn't make much sense for BIS tanks to get two-shotted consistantly. It's not as if there is any gear to get elsewhere, this is the second (basically) boss in t8...

#27 Beef

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 03:44 PM

I have about 43k hp raid buffed, and actually stacked an extra healer in our raid just to try to compensate for this. The healers were able to heal through what appeared to be fairly significant damage spikes until the raid started taking massive AOE, and then it would fall apart.

It still feels killable, just needs a little bit of tuning perhaps.

#28 andastra

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 04:30 PM

Interesting to note that Yogg drops the same ilevel gear as the rest of the bosses in the instance. Looks like the discussion in the PTR thread was rather moot. This could mean an end to the system of clearing a whole instance and DEing all the drops just for a shot at the end boss loot.



Which makes sense, considering the hard modes. Back then, the end boss(es) acted like the hard mode of the instance. It also made loot from some of the early bosses on the next instance undesirable as they're just sidegrades mostly of the end boss loot from the previous tier.

Judging from what my guild has done so far, it seems Flame Leviathan is tuned to be a Naxx difficulty boss and then it ramps up quickly after. I'm thinking they might need to tune Flame Leviathan a little harder so it'll be a bridge from Naxx to the next Ulduar bosses. Otherwise, it's too much of a pushover then doing the next boss is a rude shock.

#29 Cambriel

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 04:41 PM

Judging from what my guild has done so far, it seems Flame Leviathan is tuned to be a Naxx difficulty boss and then it ramps up quickly after. I'm thinking they might need to tune Flame Leviathan a little harder so it'll be a bridge from Naxx to the next Ulduar bosses. Otherwise, it's too much of a pushover then doing the next boss is a rude shock.


I dunno, I think Deconstructor is just about perfect for the normal mode version. It's tuned quite well. Razorscale and Ignis are both optional, so I don't mind them being a tad harder than the boss you have to kill in order to continue progressing.

I think they were worried about Flame Leviathan being less fun as a result of tight tuning on a vehicle fight. As such, it's pretty simple without towers.

#30 Mordekhuul

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 04:46 PM

I dunno, I think Deconstructor is just about perfect for the normal mode version. It's tuned quite well. Razorscale and Ignis are both optional, so I don't mind them being a tad harder than the boss you have to kill in order to continue progressing.


You say that, but you are wearing full 7.5 gear, not the mostly tier 7 gear a "10 man guild" would have going into Ulduar10. Blizz is theoretically tuning Ulduar10 for groups that didn't do Naxx25, Sarth25 with drakes, or Malygos25, eh.

You may already have factored that in though - we beat him around 5m15s in Ulduar10 last night (after we failed to form a 25 man raid lock thanks to instance server issues with Ulduar25 last night), so I imagine a good "10 man guild" could just hit the enrage timer for a kill.

#31 Exemplar

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 04:56 PM

Regarding Ignis difficulties, on Tuesday along with the Buff to Ignis not being removed when Golems died, our OT was reporting that as soon as you moved a not-quite Molten Golem out its stack would drop. So get it to 19, Scorch fades or you move - 0.

Last night when Scorch faded or he moved early it started reducing 19->18->17 and so on. This gives a little more forgiveness. It's possible the difficulties people were experiencing were due to the vanishing stack glitch.

Sounds like the fix for his debuff issue may have just been a roll back to a previous build - namely one that had the melee his Crotch Pot target issue.

Question:
Looking for some insight regarding the Flame Leviathan fight and turrets (not Hard mode Towers). Did this on 10man - first few tries launched onto FL, killed a turret. Got raid emotes, but not sure if anything actually happened - he got an overload debuff but it never wore off and he was never stunned - unsure if there's supposed to be a clicky under the turret based on previous reports of an overload "button." Additionally, being on FL was a death sentence. Dismounting lead to death in less than 1 second. Staying on and targeting other turrets for fun lead to death when we killed him - explosion damage, knock up, fall damage.

Not looking for strategies and don't want to start a strategy discussion. I'm just curious about the turret/overload mechanic and if you're supposed to dismount and return to a vehicle.
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#32 Cambriel

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 05:01 PM

You say that, but you are wearing full 7.5 gear, not the mostly tier 7 gear a "10 man guild" would have going into Ulduar10. Blizz is theoretically tuning Ulduar10 for groups that didn't do Naxx25, Sarth25 with drakes, or Malygos25, eh.

You may already have factored that in though - we beat him around 5m15s in Ulduar10 last night (after we failed to form a 25 man raid lock thanks to instance server issues with Ulduar25 last night), so I imagine a good "10 man guild" could just hit the enrage timer for a kill.


Well, true. Most of our 10 man run had people with naxx25 gear. However, I'm fairly sensitive to the issue you're referring to since I've switched pretty exclusively to 10 mans for Ulduar. I would be very disappointed if the tuning for the hard mode wasn't doable in 10 man ulduar gear, but for now Deconstructor seems pretty much fine. It's really more about your execution than your gear.

#33 Harwin

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 05:02 PM

Regarding Ignis difficulties, on Tuesday along with the Buff to Ignis not being removed when Golems died, our OT was reporting that as soon as you moved a not-quite Molten Golem out its stack would drop. So get it to 19, Scorch fades or you move - 0.

Last night when Scorch faded or he moved early it started reducing 19->18->17 and so on. This gives a little more forgiveness. It's possible the difficulties people were experiencing were due to the vanishing stack glitch.

Sounds like the fix for his debuff issue may have just been a roll back to a previous build - namely one that had the melee his Crotch Pot target issue.

Question:
Looking for some insight regarding the Flame Leviathan fight and turrets (not Hard mode Towers). Did this on 10man - first few tries launched onto FL, killed a turret. Got raid emotes, but not sure if anything actually happened - he got an overload debuff but it never wore off and he was never stunned - unsure if there's supposed to be a clicky under the turret based on previous reports of an overload "button." Additionally, being on FL was a death sentence. Dismounting lead to death in less than 1 second. Staying on and targeting other turrets for fun lead to death when we killed him - explosion damage, knock up, fall damage.

Not looking for strategies and don't want to start a strategy discussion. I'm just curious about the turret/overload mechanic and if you're supposed to dismount and return to a vehicle.


I dismounted from FL and got killed, but it wasn't instant. It was my fault for not marking myself with a raid icon, and coordinating with a chopper driver to pick me up in advance.

Our MT did it from the other side successfully(obviously he has more survivability) by calling for a chopper to be ready to pick him up the instance he jumped.

#34 GSH

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 05:02 PM

Looking for some insight regarding the Flame Leviathan fight and turrets (not Hard mode Towers). Did this on 10man - first few tries launched onto FL, killed a turret. Got raid emotes, but not sure if anything actually happened - he got an overload debuff but it never wore off and he was never stunned - unsure if there's supposed to be a clicky under the turret based on previous reports of an overload "button." Additionally, being on FL was a death sentence. Dismounting lead to death in less than 1 second. Staying on and targeting other turrets for fun lead to death when we killed him - explosion damage, knock up, fall damage.


I think you need to kill all of the turrets to stun him. At that point, he knocks off everyone and they parachute down safely.

#35 Razzberry

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 05:07 PM

Interesting to note that Yogg drops the same ilevel gear as the rest of the bosses in the instance. Looks like the discussion in the PTR thread was rather moot. This could mean an end to the system of clearing a whole instance and DEing all the drops just for a shot at the end boss loot.


I found it interesting that he also drops the shoulder tokens. If I'm not mistaken, that's the first time that an end-boss has dropped anything other than the "Big Three" (helm, chest, legs).

Speaking of tokens, now that everything has been cleared, which bosses drop which tier tokens?

#36 Guest_Alk_*

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 05:07 PM

Wait... I had no clue the dmg on XT's heart would transfer over to him.. that could explain a lot.

Can anyone confirm this?

Also.. I've seen plenty of rumors about the boombots, where as you can trigger their spawn one way or another, but to me it seems pretty random.

#37 rbbrdckybk

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 05:24 PM

Wait... I had no clue the dmg on XT's heart would transfer over to him.. that could explain a lot.

Can anyone confirm this?


The damage was transferring for us last night on normal. Seems like beating the enrage would be difficult if you were to just ignore the heart (at least for 10-man geared raids).

#38 Jakuniku

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 05:41 PM

The damage was transferring for us last night on normal. Seems like beating the enrage would be difficult if you were to just ignore the heart (at least for 10-man geared raids).


Our raid leader was feeling a little overconfident so he wanted to try XT-002 hard mode; our dps was a little slow and we didn't manage to kill the heart before the timer ran out. We did get it to 1 or 2% though and when the boss reawakened he was at 50% (down from 75%).

I think we had about 10-15 seconds of dps time before he exposed his heart again.

#39 andastra

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 05:42 PM

Wait... I had no clue the dmg on XT's heart would transfer over to him.. that could explain a lot.

Can anyone confirm this?

Also.. I've seen plenty of rumors about the boombots, where as you can trigger their spawn one way or another, but to me it seems pretty random.



Guild didn't attack the heart for roughly an hour of attempts and was always roughly 35% behind on good attempts. After starting to attack it, we eventually killed it.

#40 Axl_Stukov

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 05:44 PM

I found it interesting that he also drops the shoulder tokens. If I'm not mistaken, that's the first time that an end-boss has dropped anything other than the "Big Three" (helm, chest, legs).

Speaking of tokens, now that everything has been cleared, which bosses drop which tier tokens?


I believe it is
Mimiron - Hands
Freya - Legs
Hodir - Chest
Throim - Head
Yogg-Saron - Shoulders




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