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Warrior vs Druid Tanks


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#21 XI-

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 04:49 PM

That would be pretty cool, but it won't happen.  Can you imagine the uproar from guilds that have denied Druids feral gear up untill now? :)

But the druid talent revamp is why you don't ever have a hope of seeing said encounter. The encounter would have to be designed around a druid with basically no talents. Then when you break down the encounter it would be significantly easier for anyone with HotW, which is precisely why you don't see a talent like this deep in protection.

My previous comment was in jest, but to respond:

Firstly a lot of this is based upon reading the Druid forums as opposed to personal experience (although I'm working on that :).)

If you had said Feral Instinct I might have agreed, but I seriously doubt that not have 20% extra HP would prevent a guild using a Druid tank if such a situation required it. Horde guilds were able to do encounters that the Alliance did with the benefit of Blessing of Kings (no comments on Blessing of Salvation - that's another story) without a significant increase in difficulty in most cases. The basic Druid skills all generate the same levels of threat regardless of talent build (if we ignore feral instinct, which is to Druids what Defiance is to Warriors afaik), and given that most Druids consider agility to be a primary tanking stat then I dare say that Druids are capable of making up for lost parry that Warriors have via increased dodge. Certainly a larger pool of hitpoints helps Druids soak up the extra critical strikes that a Warrior would avoid, but they also have other advantages/features/blah:

- Larger armour soak: It all adds up in the end.
- Demoralizing Roar reportedly decreases DPS taken by a percentage (something like 10% according to several posts i've seen on the Druid forums) as opposed to a flat AP reduction that Demoralizing Shout gives.
- Swipe seems to act like sunder armor (but generates less threat)
- Maul is the Druid version of Heroic Strike (and supposedly applies more threat than the damage component does)
- Polymorph Immunity (thought i'd include this, given that the proposed encounter is based upon it.)
- I'll include Heart of the Wild simply because I'm sure Druids in many guilds would jump at the chance to respec because only they were able to tank a particular encounter; so Heart of the Wild would help make up the few percent critical strike reduction that they lack when compared to Warriors. Crushing blows are a moot point, as defense doesn't mitigate those (as far as I'm aware.)

Sure, Druids don't have the snap aggro generation that a Warrior does, but given enough time they'd build up enough hate for DPS to go in and have the mob remain on the Druid throughout the encounter.

If anything, the only disadvantage I can see is that Druids are lacking the additional 10% elemental damage reduction that Warriors recieve in defensive stance (thanks Beef for pointing this out a few days back.)

Disclaimer: This is all theorycraft!.

Edit: Damnit, Gurgthock! Get back to work instead of replying to posts before me!

How about a druid having 30% more hp (HotW + kings) vs a horde druid with no hotw.

If you've made the encounter a single mob, and you're staying away from elemental damage, and you're limiting knockbacks, other than the gimmick that encourages a druid tank what could you do to make the encounter hard. The only thing from the current style of raiding would be, beat the shit out of them. And in any case where the mobs does huge damage the bigger hp pool you have the easier the encounter is.

With regard to your druid comments.

Armor soak means nothing since most bwl geared tanks are at about 61-63% mitigation, and it caps at 75%. Toss in the 10% reduction from defensive stance, and the damage is about the same, and the warrior isn't getting crit, ever.

Demoralizing Roar.

http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=9898
http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=11556

It's actually less effective and the aura mod is the same.

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#22 Umph

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 04:52 PM

Much of the empirical testing done by Druids (who have tanked mobs like Ragnaros with no difficulty) more knowledgable than I supplied most of the information for my post; so I'm not willing to discount things like Demoralizing Roar based simply upon something on Thottbott.

And yes, a Druid with 30% more HP as opposed to one with 20% more would have an easier time of it. Welcome to Alliance vs Horde.

#23 Praetorian

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 04:54 PM

Much of the empirical testing done by Druids (who have tanked mobs like Ragnaros with no difficulty) more knowledgable than I supplied most of the information for my post; so I'm not willing to discount things like Demoralizing Roar based simply upon something on Thottbott.

And yes, a Druid with 30% more HP as opposed to one with 20% more would have an easier time of it. Welcome to Alliance vs Horde.

Er, Thottbot is more empirical than any player testing. It's the actual game data files.

Now, a lot of things, like most aggro generation/reduction, and so forth, are not plainly visible in those files, and must be worked out. But where Thott gives you an actual number, that is the number.

#24 Umph

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 04:56 PM

Shrug, whatever the case; a lot of people think that Druids make viable tanks in comparison to Warriors in a variety of situations. So despite my making jokes about feral Druids earler I don't think possible future encounters should be disregarded simply because of a talent revamp :).

#25 Umph

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 04:58 PM

Er, Thottbot is more empirical than any player testing.

Oh, and empirical measurements are gotten from observation and experimentation.

Just sayin ;) .

#26 Elerion

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 05:00 PM

Armor soak means nothing since most bwl geared tanks are at about 61-63% mitigation, and it caps at 75%. Toss in the 10% reduction from defensive stance, and the damage is about the same, and the warrior isn't getting crit, ever.

75% reduction versus 62% reduction means you're taking 35% less damage. It's not insignificant. Although with the current trend of mobs having elemental damage and/or killing tanks with crits rather than sustained damage, it doesn't matter. An encounter could easily be designed to favor druid tanking though, as mentioned above. Frequent low damage physical hits adding up to high dps would accomplish that.

And correct me if I'm wrong here, but when sporting flasks, doesn't a tauren warrior have equal/more hp than an alliance warrior with BoK? (I guess this has changed a lot since when we started clearing BWL though, since flask and similar buffs is a relatively smaller decrease compared to stamina now)

(Oh, how does the hp increase from Bear Form/HotW work alongside the tauren racial? If the tauren racial is applied after the BF hp boost, it could possibly work out to be more than an alliance druid with BoK, at least if using flasks.)

#27 XI-

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 05:00 PM

Much of the empirical testing done by Druids (who have tanked mobs like Ragnaros with no difficulty) more knowledgable than I supplied most of the information for my post; so I'm not willing to discount things like Demoralizing Roar based simply upon something on Thottbott.

And yes, a Druid with 30% more HP as opposed to one with 20% more would have an easier time of it. Welcome to Alliance vs Horde.

You missed the point of that statement. Blizzard has stated they never intend to design encounters around 1 particular talent spec, and never intend to force a talent spec on people.

To have an encounter where you are basically forced to have a druid tank it would either be impossible for a horde tank without HotW, or incredibly easy for an alliance tank with HotW.

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#28 Graham

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 05:03 PM

I disagree, Xi, and it's for two reasons.

1) Druids are a 2/3s specialist class, not a hybrid class. Druids can be a 60/40 or 70/30 split amongst any two of the three trees, depending on gearing. I think the talent design makes that rather obvious, especially Nature's Swiftness at 21. Blizzard doesn't intend the class to be a hybrid like Shamans or Paladins, nor do they intend all functional talent specs to be at least X percent of basic class utility. The obviously intended nature of the 15/31/5 (14/32/5) PvP/Solo spec supports this.

The Druid class is supposed to either pick two things (and be really good/good or VERY good/ok at them) or be a silly cat DPS machine (presumably for solo use).

2) Blizzard has said they want both specs and encounters to lend credibility to a mix of Druid builds. The way we've been highly succesful with 0/30/21 and 24/0/27 and even 15/32/5 build druids in EJ means that the specs work. Now it remains for Blizzard to give us encounters where druid utility DPS is useful for more than trash.


Edit: Fixed for Romper

#29 Umph

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 05:04 PM

I still feel you're overestimating HotW, and that a Druid would be capable of tanking without it. My initial point regarding HotW was that comparing a Druid with HotW to a Druid without HotW would be like comparing an Alliance Warrior with a Horde Warrior only with an obvious percentage difference. The Horde has always managed without BoK, why would a Druid not be able to manage without HotW? You may have to make up for it via buffs but in my opinion it would be viable.

Edit: Which is not to say that I don't see your point regarding HP being such a variable factor when you consider Druid tanks, I think it would be possible to design an encounter that takes into account the variable highly HP of a Druid tank.

#30 Praetorian

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 05:06 PM

I think people are kind of talking past each other here. Xi isn't arguing what he personally thinks the outcome should be so much as he is articulating what Blizzard has said/done in the past, in justifying why the holy tree didn't make priests godly healers, or why prot didn't make warriors amazing tanks, etc.

I think most of us disagree with a lot of that philosophy.

Edit: Personally, I'd like to see more diversity. You don't force people into a single spec, but rather you reward various spec choices at various points throughout a zone. Have one fight where Blast Wave really, really helps, followed by one where Ice Block removes a huge threat. Have fights where the more warriors you have with Shield Slam, the easier it'll be, and then have fights where MS is key. And so forth. It's balance, but achieved in a different way than just homogenous encounters that assume no talents at all. Save that level of design for 5-man and 10-man zones where, yes, I agree, you shouldn't be forced to bring a particular spec along.

#31 Umph

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 05:10 PM

Well it certainly wouldn't be the first time I've missed the gist of what someone was saying at 2:30am.

#32 hamlet_the_lesser

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 05:11 PM

In respect to priests becoming godly healers though, it would really get rid of us shamans and druids. I dont care to think of that.
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#33 XI-

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 05:14 PM

I think people are kind of talking past each other here. Xi isn't arguing what he personally thinks the outcome should be so much as he is articulating what Blizzard has said/done in the past, in justifying why the holy tree didn't make priests godly healers, or why prot didn't make warriors amazing tanks, etc.

I think most of us disagree with a lot of that philosophy.

Edit: Personally, I'd like to see more diversity. You don't force people into a single spec, but rather you reward various spec choices at various points throughout a zone. Have one fight where Blast Wave really, really helps, followed by one where Ice Block removes a huge threat. Have fights where the more warriors you have with Shield Slam, the easier it'll be, and then have fights where MS is key. And so forth. It's balance, but achieved in a different way than just homogenous encounters that assume no talents at all. Save that level of design for 5-man and 10-man zones where, yes, I agree, you shouldn't be forced to bring a particular spec along.

You hit that nail on the head that was exactly what I was trying to get across. What's funny is if we went with the holy tree makes priests excellant healers, you need protection tanks, there are no "DPS" warriors because they're significantly outclassed by rogues, it would run directly counter to your opinions ;). You wouldn't be bringing a hybrid to tank, or DPS, since they'd just be blown away by the pure classes.

On your second point, how do you then get away from the Ragnaros 2.0/Vael debacles of "lol i stacked my raid with 20 of X class, this encounter is so easy".

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#34 Praetorian

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 05:21 PM

Hmm, good point. I do think there's a middle ground though, where you are really, really served by having 1-2 people of a given talent spec in a given fight, and having zero hurts you, but having 5+ won't really make much of a difference versus just a couple.

I guess I can actually see a little bit of this in some of the AQ40 fights I've seen on the PTR (argh, seeing screenshots and news updates from Medivh for the next two weeks is going to be frustrating), which is a good thing I think.

#35 Wodin

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 05:29 PM

Edit: Personally, I'd like to see more diversity. You don't force people into a single spec, but rather you reward various spec choices at various points throughout a zone. Have one fight where Blast Wave really, really helps, followed by one where Ice Block removes a huge threat. Have fights where the more warriors you have with Shield Slam, the easier it'll be, and then have fights where MS is key. And so forth. It's balance, but achieved in a different way than just homogenous encounters that assume no talents at all. Save that level of design for 5-man and 10-man zones where, yes, I agree, you shouldn't be forced to bring a particular spec along.

How do you reward spec diversity when there's only one job for the class(ie rogues?). As it stands the only difference in spec is based purely on whether or not the rogue is using swords or daggers, and it's a 10 point difference in allocation. Mages are in a similar boat - Raiding mages after their AQ20 frostbolt are all still going to be frost-spec anyways, since it's still going to be the best balance of debuff sensitivity, efficiency, and DPS thanks to the retardedly large upgrade to frostbolt.

Unless you make the mobs specifically gimmicked to a single ability like the hunter demons, there's not really much you can do to reward specs of pure classes.

#36 Praetorian

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 05:35 PM

How do you reward spec diversity when there's only one job for the class(ie rogues?). As it stands the only difference in spec is based purely on whether or not the rogue is using swords or daggers, and it's a 10 point difference in allocation. Mages are in a similar boat - Raiding mages after their AQ20 frostbolt are all still going to be frost-spec anyways, since it's still going to be the best balance of debuff sensitivity, efficiency, and DPS thanks to the retardedly large upgrade to frostbolt.

Unless you make the mobs specifically gimmicked to a single ability like the hunter demons, there's not really much you can do to reward specs of pure classes.

Sartura?

Also, clearly, a mob with a 35 yard PBAoE that you can only outrange with Throwing Weapon Spec.

#37 subscience

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 05:40 PM

Also, clearly, a mob with a 35 yard PBAoE that you can only outrange with Throwing Weapon Spec.

:laugh:

#38 Wodin

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 06:05 PM

Sartura?

Also, clearly, a mob with a 35 yard PBAoE that you can only outrange with Throwing Weapon Spec.

Sartura rewards spec diversity in Warriors. It's a wash for rogues - there's no practical difference in CP generation in the window you have to melee her. There's a 1CP difference between a hemo spec(35energy per CP) and a 20/31 sword rogue(40energy per CP). You're spending 220 energy(100 saved up + 120 in the 12 seconds) and get 5 CP in a 20/31 build, vs 6 CP for the hemo spec.

And if they really make a mob that requires Improved Throwing Weapon spec I'm switching mains the next day.

#39 XI-

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 06:11 PM

Sartura?

Also, clearly, a mob with a 35 yard PBAoE that you can only outrange with Throwing Weapon Spec.

Sartura rewards spec diversity in Warriors. It's a wash for rogues - there's no practical difference in CP generation in the window you have to melee her. There's a 1CP difference between a hemo spec(35energy per CP) and a 20/31 sword rogue(40energy per CP). You're spending 220 energy(100 saved up + 120 in the 12 seconds) and get 5 CP in a 20/31 build, vs 6 CP for the hemo spec.

And if they really make a mob that requires Improved Throwing Weapon spec I'm switching mains the next day.

I didn't fight sartura on the later iterations of the test server, but if she's afflicted by the same things as the earlier versions were all I can say is LOLHOJLOL.

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#40 Praetorian

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 06:16 PM

Yeah, no shit -- we killed her earlier forms on Test before they gave her the three mini-Sartura instagib adds, but it pissed me off to no end reading Alliance guilds talk about Sartura was no harder than Sulfuron. I'm curious to see how she's changed. Note that Fury conspicuously did not post a Sartura screenshot last night. They must have trained/rezzed past her.




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