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Warrior vs Druid Tanks


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#41 Wodin

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 06:18 PM

I believe they did neither, actually. It sounded from hardcore_cracka's post on the FoH boards that they just skirted the edge of her room and moved fast.

#42 Scorponok

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 06:47 PM

How do you reward spec diversity when there's only one job for the class(ie rogues?). As it stands the only difference in spec is based purely on whether or not the rogue is using swords or daggers, and it's a 10 point difference in allocation.

300 Sword Resistance

Edit: Or they could make things like Improved Sap and, what's the other odd talent? Haemorrage? Useful in certain fights.

#43 subscience

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 06:53 PM

Hemo is a very useful debuff.

#44 diospadre

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 06:55 PM

And if they really make a mob that requires Improved Throwing Weapon spec I'm switching mains the next day.

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#45 XI-

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 06:56 PM

How do you reward spec diversity when there's only one job for the class(ie rogues?). As it stands the only difference in spec is based purely on whether or not the rogue is using swords or daggers, and it's a 10 point difference in allocation.

300 Sword Resistance

Edit: Or they could make things like Improved Sap and, what's the other odd talent? Haemorrage? Useful in certain fights.

First they'd have to make the subtlety tree not suck so much that your character would be better if you randomly clicked talents.

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#46 Zellyn

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 07:01 PM

First they'd have to make the subtlety tree not suck so much that your character would be better if you randomly clicked talents.

Premeditation!
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#47 Praetorian

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 07:08 PM

Hemo is a very useful debuff.

No it isn't.

Edit: To elaborate, in a raid setting, pretend it isn't a debuff really. It may as well just be a 3-second DoT, practically an instant. Just treat every Hemorrhage as Weapon Damage + 210 from the rogue, since all the charges will be consumed very quickly. The DPS increase you get from being able to use Hemo instead of SS does not justify the other talents you give up by getting Hemo.

#48 subscience

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 07:09 PM

Hemo is a very useful debuff.

No it isn't.

¿Por que no?

#49 Lord BEEF

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 07:50 PM

Oh god so many things to reply to.

Back on druids:

There may not be a 75% reduction cap for armor. There was a screenshot of an alliance druid on test that had inspiration and improved lay on hands during the brief period where it gave a 50% armor boost. The druid had 23,000 armor, and the character screen displayed something like 86.9% reduction. This means that either there is no 75% reduction cap like there is for resistances, or the character screen is lying. It's hard to say which is more likely.

If you really wanted to make a boss fight gimmick that favors druids, you just need to give it a knockback that it uses every 16 seconds. Make it immune to all immobolizing effects except for feral charge.

With warrior tanking you'd have to use two tanks, with one taunting as soon as it knocks the other back, otherwise it'd run loose and bitchslap your healers/dps. With druid tanking you could just feral charge every knockback. Both would be doable, but warrior tanking would be a bit tougher.

Another example of how you could do this is already in the game in the form of the zg spider boss. Alliance can just cheese it with blessing of freedom, but horde has to two tank it, or they can single tank it with a druid, using shapeshifting to remove the roots and feral charge to catch up with her.

~~~~

As for hemmorage, it's actually one of the few attacks that hasn't been normalized. If you use a slow weapon like an empyrean demolisher, wouldn't it theoretically be able to do quite good damage if you have enough attack power? Weapon damage + 210 plus your attack power calculated on a 2.8 basis for 35 energy sounds pretty damn good.

The drawback is that you miss out on a lot of combat/assassination talents. What talents do you end up having to give up in order to spec hemmorage?
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#50 subscience

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 07:56 PM

The drawback is that you miss out on a lot of combat/assassination talents. What talents do you end up having to give up in order to spec hemmorage?

You miss out on Seal Fate and above in the Assassination tree and Adrenaline Rush in the Combat tree. Hemorrhage requires 26 points in Sublety (which I don't think is as bad a talent tree as XI makes it out to be).

However, you can still get Cold Blood or Blade Flurry.

#51 Lord BEEF

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 08:00 PM

I'm thinking more along the lines of passive damage boosters which are generally the biggest thing for raid dps, like dual weild spec, precision, lethality and the like.

Looking through the sublety tree it seems like speccing for hemmorage is essentially like speccing for mana tide totem. Jesus sublety has shit for raid dps talents.
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#52 Praetorian

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 08:02 PM

The drawback is that you miss out on a lot of combat/assassination talents. What talents do you end up having to give up in order to spec hemmorage?

You miss out on Seal Fate and above in the Assassination tree and Adrenaline Rush in the Combat tree. Hemorrhage requires 26 points in Sublety (which I don't think is as bad a talent tree as XI makes it out to be).

However, you can still get Cold Blood or Blade Flurry.

We're talking PvE here. The problem is that to get Hemo, you have to either give up dual-wield spec+weapon spec, OR you have to give up Lethality+Relentless Strikes.

Hemo is pretty good, but those other talent pairs are the core of any PvE rogue spec.

#53 subscience

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 08:09 PM

We're talking PvE here. The problem is that to get Hemo, you have to either give up dual-wield spec+weapon spec, OR you have to give up Lethality+Relentless Strikes.

Hemo is pretty good, but those other talent pairs are the core of any PvE rogue spec.

Hm. Optimally, wouldn't having 1 Hemo Rogue in your raid boost your overall damage compared to if that Rogue was a DW/Combat spec?

I guess we just had the luxury of having a Hemo Rogue that had a very solid attendance record. I remember reading the breakdown on Hemo and it's affect on raid DPS and it was pretty surprising. I'd dig it up if the WoW forums weren't still crapping on themselves.

#54 Praetorian

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 08:13 PM

No, because like I said, it's not a raid debuff really. It only has 30 charges. It's basically a 210pt DoT that ticks very rapidly over the course of a few seconds after you do Hemo. It's not a % increase to raid damage, it isn't a time-based debuff. It's just 30 rapid ticks of 7 damage each.

#55 subscience

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 08:20 PM

No, because like I said, it's not a raid debuff really. It only has 30 charges. It's basically a 210pt DoT that ticks very rapidly over the course of a few seconds after you do Hemo. It's not a % increase to raid damage, it isn't a time-based debuff. It's just 30 rapid ticks of 7 damage each.

Hm.

It might also be worth factoring in the very low Energy cost and the fact that not only is it a quick DoT-style debuff which gets consumed quickly (meaning you can lay Hemos as quick as you have Energy in some cases), but it does have a DD portion as well. Also, CP generation will be faster than Combat Rogues but maybe not as quick as SF Rogues.

#56 XI-

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 08:23 PM

Oh god so many things to reply to.

Back on druids:

There may not be a 75% reduction cap for armor. There was a screenshot of an alliance druid on test that had inspiration and improved lay on hands during the brief period where it gave a 50% armor boost. The druid had 23,000 armor, and the character screen displayed something like 86.9% reduction. This means that either there is no 75% reduction cap like there is for resistances, or the character screen is lying. It's hard to say which is more likely.

If you really wanted to make a boss fight gimmick that favors druids, you just need to give it a knockback that it uses every 16 seconds. Make it immune to all immobolizing effects except for feral charge.

With warrior tanking you'd have to use two tanks, with one taunting as soon as it knocks the other back, otherwise it'd run loose and bitchslap your healers/dps. With druid tanking you could just feral charge every knockback. Both would be doable, but warrior tanking would be a bit tougher.

Another example of how you could do this is already in the game in the form of the zg spider boss. Alliance can just cheese it with blessing of freedom, but horde has to two tank it, or they can single tank it with a druid, using shapeshifting to remove the roots and feral charge to catch up with her.

~~~~

As for hemmorage, it's actually one of the few attacks that hasn't been normalized. If you use a slow weapon like an empyrean demolisher, wouldn't it theoretically be able to do quite good damage if you have enough attack power? Weapon damage + 210 plus your attack power calculated on a 2.8 basis for 35 energy sounds pretty damn good.

The drawback is that you miss out on a lot of combat/assassination talents. What talents do you end up having to give up in order to spec hemmorage?

If its tauntable I'd just treat it like a drake and have the OT taunt and eat knockbacks :P. If its not tauntable have a druid feral charge it, while your MT intercepts to it. Still wouldn't need them to tank ;).

To get hemo you basically give up everything in combat with the typical build. DW spec/prec/BF/AR/aggression.

If you tried some sub/combat bastard hybrid you'd give up all the good ass talents like ruthlessness, relentless strikes, improved S&D, possibly improved evis, and lethality.

In exchange you could take amazing talents like camo, MoD, rapid concealment, elusiveness, ghostly strike (see where I'm going here). Subtlety doesn't have anything for real PvE dmg boosters.

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#57 XI-

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 08:25 PM

No, because like I said, it's not a raid debuff really. It only has 30 charges. It's basically a 210pt DoT that ticks very rapidly over the course of a few seconds after you do Hemo. It's not a % increase to raid damage, it isn't a time-based debuff. It's just 30 rapid ticks of 7 damage each.

Hm.

It might also be worth factoring in the very low Energy cost and the fact that not only is it a quick DoT-style debuff which gets consumed quickly (meaning you can lay Hemos as quick as you have Energy in some cases), but it does have a DD portion as well. Also, CP generation will be faster than Combat Rogues but maybe not as quick as SF Rogues.

Yes, its also worth factoring that the tree as a whole blows and is only good for being a tool in PvP.

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#58 subscience

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 08:31 PM

Yes, its also worth factoring that the tree as a whole blows and is only good for being a tool in PvP.

That's the name of my game. B)

Have you seen the Nerf Sap 6 video of that Prep Rogue? I was pretty impressed watching it, but I was also extremely high, so I shall reserve final judgement until I can watch it again.

#59 XI-

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 08:33 PM

Yes, its also worth factoring that the tree as a whole blows and is only good for being a tool in PvP.

That's the name of my game. B)

Have you seen the Nerf Sap 6 video of that Prep Rogue? I was pretty impressed watching it, but I was also extremely high, so I shall reserve final judgement until I can watch it again.

I'm not impressed by anything that involves all of your cooldowns at the same time leaving yourself completely defenseless for the next X minutes. As a rogue when I duel people I use as few cooldowns as possible, yea I'm sure if I OOC stealthed 27 times, and blinded you 4 times I could win, but what would it prove other than I was a faggot.

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#60 subscience

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 08:34 PM

yea I'm sure if I OOC stealthed 27 times, and blinded you 4 times I could win, but what would it prove other than I was a faggot.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Point duly noted. :laugh:




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