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WotLK Healing Compendium v3.2: Same Old Thing


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#21 tedv

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 06:23 PM

I think the core of this dispute is whether or not we as priests are running out of mana in Ulduar. I contend that mana hasn't been an issue for me on any fight so far, but you've had problems with many fights. How many healers do you bring to most fights? We generally bring 6 healers, or 7 if the fight is more about control than DPS. I suspect that we are bringing too many though, which would explain the lack of mana issues. If you are bringing only 5 healers to an average fight, then I can see mana being a concern. If you have 6 or 7 healers, then someone in your raid is doing something wrong if healers are out of mana.

On the subject of hard modes, most of them seem to be of the form "stack extra DPS and cut healers", so that's a situation where you might need more mana regen. However, they also have the form "this deals more damage", so you in theory need more throughput. Mana efficiency and throughput are always at odds, and I believe hard modes need to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis. We can't just say that "all hard modes require a greater focus on gear aspect X".

You're in love with spellpower. I'm not. You've made a lot of assumptions about things in my post based entirely on the idea that spellpower is more valuable than regen.


I'd like to take a step back here. Spell power is just a means to an end, just like spirit, crit, haste, and m/5 are. There is always a tension between how much throughput you have and how much longevity (regen) you have. Shorter fights tend to favor throughput while longer fights favor longevity. From that framework, I suggest Spell Power is the most efficient stat because it increases both Throughput and Longevity. If you could spend 2 itemization points on any combination of spell power, int (mostly all regen), and haste (all throughput), 2 points in spell power (roughly 2.1 spell power) will beat 1 haste and 1 int for both throughput and longevity. That's not to say there aren't fights where 2 int will be better (vezax) or 2 haste will be better (razorscale), but 1 haste + 1 int is never the right choice because 2 spell power beats it on both throughput and efficiency.

So when I hear you arguing for both haste because it increases Throughput and Int/Spirit because they increase Longevity, I'm dubious. You can't argue both sides. Either Throughput matters more, meaning you focus on spell power / crit / haste, or Longevity matters more, meaning you focus on spell power / crit / int+spirit. I wonder if the reason you are running low on mana is that you haven't focused on spell power. It's easy to fall into a trap where you get a lot of haste, which makes you feel low on mana, and then you try to compensate by stacking mana regen. Unfortunately this produces a situation where the heals are anemic, and you need to work a lot harder to keep everyone alive.

Related to this, it's worth noting that we as priest might need to start collecting two healing sets, one focused on mana efficiency and another on throughput. I think part of this dispute comes from applying a "one size fits all" gearing methodology to the variety of boss fights in the game. Neither a "hit these arbitrary thresholds" nor a "follow these arbitrary weightings" heuristic can do justice.


As an aside, your argument on the flasks was specious. You don't compare 65 intellect directly to 125 spellpower. Even if you did, it comes off looking pretty good. Flask of Distilled Wisdom is worth approximately 57 Mp5, which definitely owns the Mojo flask, which is itemized exactly the same as the Frost Wyrm. So if Frost Wyrm = Mojo in itemization points, and Distilled Wisdom is more regen than Mojo, then it's a better option. I'd rather pick up 65 intellect from a flask and use spellpower food to help make up the difference than use spellpower food and be unable to pick up regen from another source.


But we don't make decisions by itemization points, because we know that things with similar item levels can have vastly different utility. Even if you wanted to argue from itemization points, 65 int < 38 m/5, so if we followed that logic, we would falsely conclude Distilled Wisdom is worse than Pure Mojo.

At any rate, this is another aspect of throughput versus longevity. But this one clearly favors Frost Wyrm, because taking Distilled wisdom makes you lose 2 spell power for every 1 intellect you gain. If you want more longevity, it's better to make that sacrifice in gemming, where you only lose 1.15 spell power for every 1 intellect you gain.

Your comment about "Spell Power > Crit > Haste = Spirit = Int >> M/5", if applied directly to gemming, is basically false. Gemming is the perfect situation to take your overall gear level, and balance out the stats.

...

As far as the soft haste cap, I'm sticking with it. Having ~ 21% haste raid-buffed is a nice number. Obviously more will help, but depending on your use of FH and Serendipity


But why is gemming the perfect situation to balance stats? Every other class in the game uses gemming as the opportunity to stack whichever stats give them the best returns. I know that there is a theoretical mathematical optimum where all stats are roughly equal in value. And yes, clearly the more spell power you have, the better returns you get from crit and haste. But I haven't seen any math proving that the current gear level just happens to be in this optimum. Rather, the math I've seen says quite the opposite-- some stats really do provide better returns than others, and they should be stacked.

Similarly, I confess I'm uneasy about putting the "21% haste soft cap" in the root post as a "really important guideline" without any math to back it up. I know you are sticking with it, but I prefer my choices to have a mathematical backing. If there's math to back it up, great-- we should post that. If not, then it seems like a harmful guideline that just encourages inefficient gearing (from a mana standpoint).

#22 Zomgdie

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 08:49 PM

I think the core of this dispute is whether or not we as priests are running out of mana in Ulduar. I contend that mana hasn't been an issue for me on any fight so far, but you've had problems with many fights. How many healers do you bring to most fights? We generally bring 6 healers, or 7 if the fight is more about control than DPS. I suspect that we are bringing too many though, which would explain the lack of mana issues. If you are bringing only 5 healers to an average fight, then I can see mana being a concern. If you have 6 or 7 healers, then someone in your raid is doing something wrong if healers are out of mana.


I think that as far as this goes you are generalizing far to much. You aren't taking into effect outide influences. How much replenishment are you running with in your raid, are you getting regular innervates and mana tides? How much HPS are you putting out. Are you doing the avg amount of hps other priests are? These are all outside factors that you are not accounting for. Personally, I have yet to be terribly taxed for mana except for Thorim which had me using every cd and ability availble to me and finished the fight right as I went OOM.

I think the core of this dispute is you are looking at this from the perspective of yourself all alone where as Nidaba is factoring in how to maximize everything around you, which from a min/max raiding perspective is kind of the point.
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#23 constantius

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 08:57 PM

In continuation of the discussion of flasks: the only time I'd use a Frost Wyrm flask on progression content (aside from gimmicks) is if I was running 2 regen trinkets. You can't make up the regen difference in gemming or enchants, really. Now, if you actively choose to pursue regen in every aspect of your gearing, and you get "more than enough", then it's possible that the only thing left to do is stack spellpower. I tend to think of the following as counterparts:

Gemming <--> Gearing <--> Enchanting
Flasks <--> Food <--> Trinkets

Why? Because as you setup for a pull, you can switch the last 3 with minimal effort. You can't switch gems or enchants on the fly, at least not without exorbitant cost. So I gear for heavy regen, and flask for it most of the time too, and occasionally (read: farm mode, or General Vezax), switch everything easy over to throughput. You're right that Frost Wyrm is the best flask in terms of itemization points. But Distilled Wisdom is the only way to gain ~ 60 Mp5 on *top* of gearing and itemization that I'm aware of, and my point is that sometimes (esp. progression / hard-mode content) regen is king. Long fights, especially ones with minimal regen periods, task our entire mana regeneration system, and having extra regen is more important than throughput.

I should note that I carry a stack of Frost Wyrm flasks with me, and I do use them. Just not often.

In terms of the "soft cap" on haste: haste is useful. I don't think anyone argues against that. Most of the time, we want to keep our crit high (HC procs, and increased throughput), and spellpower high-ish (~ 2900 or so) as well. That automatically puts the haste "cap" between 400 and 500, just in terms of itemization. 440 seems like a good benchmark.

If someone wants to show that you can get significant (i.e. > 15%) improvements in throughput by removing all haste from our gear and stacking spellpower and crit, by all means do it. It has to be extremely significant in order to balance out the lack in responsiveness gained through "some" haste. What value that "some" is -- that, we can argue about. Personally, the 21% has always felt right because of the way the gearing falls out. In early Naxx, 21% haste (i.e. 12% from gear) meant I hit 26% crit raid buffed. In Ulduar, it means I break 30% crit raid-buffed. Regen fluctuates a bit, but is predictably over 500 Mp5 I5SR after raid buffs.
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#24 tedv

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 08:58 PM

I think that as far as this goes you are generalizing far to much. You aren't taking into effect outide influences. How much replenishment are you running with in your raid, are you getting regular innervates and mana tides? How much HPS are you putting out. Are you doing the avg amount of hps other priests are? These are all outside factors that you are not accounting for. Personally, I have yet to be terribly taxed for mana except for Thorim which had me using every cd and ability availble to me and finished the fight right as I went OOM.

I think the core of this dispute is you are looking at this from the perspective of yourself all alone where as Nidaba is factoring in how to maximize everything around you, which from a min/max raiding perspective is kind of the point.


Well it's good to take everything into account. We generally have two sources of replenishment-- a shadow priest and a ret paladin. Both are good players. I don't get any innervates or mana tides. I'm generally putting out 20% more healing than the next highest raid healer, though on some fights I'm tied with another holy priest. For example, I believe last Ignis kill I put out a sustained 5600 healing per second over a 5 minute fight. It stressed my mana pool, but I didn't run out (barely) and didn't get any outside mana support. Those all went to other players.

For what it's worth, I believe that maximizing personal performance is the first step in maximizing raid performance. Obviously if the only way I survived was stealing mana tides and innervates every fight, then I'm not helping the raid. But that's not what's happening. That's why I asked if he was running fewer than 6 healers, because to me it feels like we could easily go down to 5 on a lot of fights, at which point my mana pool would matter a lot more. If his raid traditionally runs 5 healers so they can slot an extra DPS, then I can see how gemming for mana regeneration makes a lot of sense. Of course, if that's the case, then haste is the last stat you want (as it never increases mana efficiency).

RE: Flasks. I still dispute that mana regen is king, and my time in Ulduar hasn't changed this opinion. You're right that Distilled Wisdom is the absolute best flask for Vezax though, by a wide margin. But that's a strange fight in that all kinds of strange things become invaluable, such as Lightwell.

#25 TheDoctor

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 11:15 PM

Wide margin ? It depends what your role is...
1/ Most of the time PoH HoT part is sniped (at least in my raid, it might be another story on some fights like Mimiron)
2/ If you're on tank duty, most of the time it's not a good idea to commit to a more than 1.5 sec cast
3/ Disc superior mana regen is for a large part due to the simultaneous shield consumption bug, which is not intended, even with that I find myself struggling with mana sometimes


It depends on more than just your role...

Item 1 - Depends on the discipline of your raid healers to not heal just to heal. On Hodir I have been getting ~40k in ticks from PoH glyph while I am tank healing.

Item 2 - While I agree that you shouldn't be distracted or on gcd so much that your primary target could die. That doesn't mean you can't PoH since you can PW:S the tank then get a ~1.9 second PoH. Then you can PoH the group the tank is in that is 10 targets and you didn't really leave the tank that long.

Item 3 - Are you sure that it is really playing that big of a role? I have been watching for it and haven't seen it multi-proc that often but then I haven't been trying to exploit it either.

#26 Rezzy

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 02:59 AM

Related to this, it's worth noting that we as priest might need to start collecting two healing sets, one focused on mana efficiency and another on throughput. I think part of this dispute comes from applying a "one size fits all" gearing methodology to the variety of boss fights in the game. Neither a "hit these arbitrary thresholds" nor a "follow these arbitrary weightings" heuristic can do justice.


I think all of us should be doing this - a General V set and a re hps set - But i think the thing people ned to understand is that 125 SP is always better than 65 Int on the proviso that you can regen your SP gems to more +Int for more benefit.

Secondly, things like mana tides/vates play a massive role in whether or not you run oom - at least equal if not more to that of your gem choices.

#27 typobox

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 07:06 AM

I think all of us should be doing this - a General V set and a re hps set - But i think the thing people ned to understand is that 125 SP is always better than 65 Int on the proviso that you can regen your SP gems to more +Int for more benefit.


That's making the assumption that you have spellpower gems in the first place.

#28 Liriel

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 09:05 AM

Can you please give an argument why 125 SP should be better than 65 Int?

To be honest I don't care for Spellpower and the last time I did was MC. When was the last time someone died because your heal was 300 to small? We have a good chunk of overheal. Not every heal is an overheal but nearly every time someone is healed to full one has a big overheal. So healing for some more only will result in more overheal. It takes a long run for more Spellpower to make a difference in heals you need to cast for a given dmg.

Sure 2900 SP is different from 1900 SP. But most of that 2900 SP comes from your gear. It is there anyway. At the moment most items of a given item-level have the same SP (and the same Int) applied so SP and Int from gear are something like constants. All the differences come from enchanting, gemming and flask/buffood. You can gear for spirit, haste, crit, mp5 but you cannot gear for int or sp. So the differences in SP or Int between characters is not so high that you will reach the point where you have to cast much less to make SP a regen-stat as you imply.

Back to when people die. They die because healers cannot spare the mana or they die because healers are not fast enough. The only ones who may occasionaly die because you cannot heal the amount needed are tanks. This discussion came from a holy-priest PoV. So tank healing is not our focus. (And even there most times you have a huge amount of overheal and more SP would only result in more overheal.)

For raid-healing you do not safe people with more SP. In most cases it is irrelevant when you safe someone if he ends up with 50% or 55% life. But it may be relevant if you heal him .2s earlier or later. So haste is a stat that can safe lifes. SP in most cases is not. Yes, haste hurts our mana but it is the best stat to safe people. Raidhealing is about saving people not getting the highest possible HPS.

As for crit. If you crit your heal is much bigger than without the crit - so this can make a difference in #of heals to cast. But most times even this is irrelevant. We go for crit to get the other things that procc from it. (Which is some form of regen for a big part).

Regen can safe people, too. If it enables you to cast all the big heals without thinking for a longer time or start with them earlier. And unlike SP regen works over the whole length of an encounter. If you get 65 int you will get the mana for another cast sometimes. If you get 125 more SP your benefits are cut of every time you get an overheal.

Sure if you do not need that mana you will not benefit from it. But then I would try to go for haste or crit not pure SP.

#29 Tainter

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 09:11 AM

That's making the assumption that you have spellpower gems in the first place.


Well, unless you're gemming for stat-balancing with Haste and Crit then the only reason not to use Spell Power gems is if you have Mana problems. If all your sockets are gemmed for Regen and you still have Mana problems, thus requiring Distilled Wisdom, then you probably have bigger problems than the difference between the two flasks. It would appear that your raid takes too much damage, or that your healing isn't efficient enough, or perhaps that you have far too few healers, or maybe your gear is below par.

On the whole Flask discussion as a whole
If your raid is less disciplined, sniping HoTs, not avoiding damage quickly, forgetting Health-stones, ignoring Lightwell, using Immunities solely for threat issues and so on and so forth, then you will need more mana. Some of these are especially true during new encounters and will not be an issue in a few weeks. This whole discussion seems to boil down to the quality of the raid. If people make few mistakes and the dps is high, keeping fights short, then you don't need as much Mana. There's not an aweful lot the healers can do here. Their job is to keep people alive. If people make mistakes their job becomes harder and requires more mana. Particularly for new encounters having spare mana to cover for people's mistakes is a big asset to a raid and I would only reduce my available mana when I'm confident that I won't need the excess.
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#30 MavSteele

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 02:45 PM

I find this discussion is interesting, although it seems like people are pretty defensive about the subject. I think the fact that there can be such varying opinions on something as simple as stats is both a testament to the fact that healing is more an art than a science and that healing philosophy and it's ramifications can vary widely from guild to guild.

There are a few people who have posted very definitively that for progression, regen is king and throughput is of secondary importance. From my experience though, I tend to approach the situation from a different perspective; with proper raid support is it possible for me (or another healer) to completely replace one of our healers for more DPS? While most people think of this as being a farm strategy (drop healers for DPS) we find it to be extremely important on progression (especially hard modes) when people are the most under geared. High raid DPS is the best kind of Mp5 and the shorter the fight the fewer opportunities for the kinds of stupid mistakes that waste mana.

My point is, it's all about your guild strategy. If you prefer a slow and steady burn on the boss, then I can see regen being of the utmost importance. For some people, however, the plan is to burst the boss down using every possible CD in the process and bringing the absolute fewest healers possible. If that's the philosophy then gearing for throughput is a "progression" strategy. This strategy requires the support and buy-in of the entire guild; you can't just make that decision on your own if it's counter to your guilds plans. Everyone has a horror story of that healer who was asking for innervates a minute into the fight, and you don't want to be that guy UNLESS that's the strategy. I always find it funny when healers brag about never using an innervate like it's some kind of accomplishment. If it's hurting your raid (taking it from a healer in a more important position or taking it from a DPS that needs it for a burn phase or DPS check for example) then absolutely, it's good to not use it. On the other hand, if at the end of the encounter no one used the innervate it was just wasted and could have been put to use.

#31 Zomgdie

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 02:50 PM

For raid-healing you do not safe people with more SP. In most cases it is irrelevant when you safe someone if he ends up with 50% or 55% life. But it may be relevant if you heal him .2s earlier or later. So haste is a stat that can safe lifes. SP in most cases is not. Yes, haste hurts our mana but it is the best stat to safe people. Raidhealing is about saving people not getting the highest possible HPS.


This is my thought process as well. Our job as raid healers is not to drop massive gheals on that tank. We are to keep everyone else alive. Look at it like triage. Who needs a heal right this second and who can wait for the shamans chain heal or the druid hots. High amounts of crit and haste allow us to get to low targets faster and bring them to an acceptable level. I think a lot of people forget that unlike dps being competition, healing is a team sport. We all fill our niche. After you've taken care of the critical people then you can start looking at topping people up or getting serendipity charges up in preparation for the AOE burst. Where yet again it's better to get the heal off and move to the next target as fast as possible as opposed to healing for more.

I don't think any math is needed to realize that a target who gets a heal and survives at 30% hp is better off than the one who would have gotten a heal a half second to late and been at 40%.

I run with about 450-500 haste depending on a few items I swap in and out. I have no issues with throughput, rarely have mana concerns and the only people with more output than me(usually) are damn OP resto druids :P I'll agree spellpower is important, sure, but I have enough of it. Using regen centric buffs, Ie Flask of Distilled Wisdom, Cuttlesteak or Nettlefish allow me to sustain the healing for longer periods of time AND increase my crit. Who doesn't love free flash heals?(and holy concentration procs)
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#32 tedv

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 03:46 PM

Can you please give an argument why 125 SP should be better than 65 Int?

To be honest I don't care for Spellpower and the last time I did was MC. When was the last time someone died because your heal was 300 to small? We have a good chunk of overheal. Not every heal is an overheal but nearly every time someone is healed to full one has a big overheal. So healing for some more only will result in more overheal. It takes a long run for more Spellpower to make a difference in heals you need to cast for a given dmg.


I don't think this is the proper way to approach the question. If you are in a situation where there's a lot of overhealing, it's generally because the healing is light and you can afford to overheal. In that case, yes, spell power doesn't help. But neither does haste, crit, or regen, as you've already "solved" the healing problem. What's probably happening is that you have too many healers in the raid, and you should cut them for DPS until you are in a situation where there isn't a lot of overhealing.

If there's not a lot of overhealing though (which in Ulduar is typical a heavy AoE damage situation), then extra spell power really does save lives. When you heal for an extra 300 damage but don't top someone off, that margin can mean topping them off isn't as important as healing someone else instead.

The real impact is for group healing though. I did a quick analysis of gemming in Constantius' gear for example, and if he switched his gems from int/haste focused to spell power, and started using Frost Wyrm instead of Distilled Wisdom, here's the net change in stats:

+192 spell power
-97 Int (-1.5% crit)
-16 Spirit (-4.5 spell power)
-16 Haste (-0.5% haste)

How does this change affect a Prayer of Healing? For prayer, it's an extra 188 * 1.1 (Spiritual Healing) * 1.1 (Divine Providence) * 1.35 (crit rate) per target. That's 307, or 1535 total, not counting heals from the glyph and ignoring overheals (for now). We need to account for the loss of 0.5% crit and haste though. With 2700-ish spell power, a typical non-crit prayer of healing hits for 22500 for the whole group. Including a 35% crit rate, this is an average 30375. The crit loss costs 0.015 * 0.5 * 22500 = 168 healing and the haste lost costs 0.005 * 30375 = 152, for a net loss of 320 healing.

That makes the total net change be 1535 - 320 = 1215 extra damage healed per prayer, or 243 per target. Even with something like 40% overhealing, this is still a clear win.

I find this discussion is interesting, although it seems like people are pretty defensive about the subject. I think the fact that there can be such varying opinions on something as simple as stats is both a testament to the fact that healing is more an art than a science and that healing philosophy and it's ramifications can vary widely from guild to guild.


I think there are some parts of healing that are art and other parts that are science. But lets not call the science parts "art" just because some people don't have math backing up their opinions. The math is out there and it seems to disprove these intuitions. We should treat healing with as much science as possible, even if it will never be 100% science like DPS can be.

This is my thought process as well. Our job as raid healers is not to drop massive gheals on that tank. We are to keep everyone else alive. Look at it like triage. Who needs a heal right this second and who can wait for the shamans chain heal or the druid hots. High amounts of crit and haste allow us to get to low targets faster and bring them to an acceptable level. I think a lot of people forget that unlike dps being competition, healing is a team sport. We all fill our niche. After you've taken care of the critical people then you can start looking at topping people up or getting serendipity charges up in preparation for the AOE burst. Where yet again it's better to get the heal off and move to the next target as fast as possible as opposed to healing for more.

I don't think any math is needed to realize that a target who gets a heal and survives at 30% hp is better off than the one who would have gotten a heal a half second to late and been at 40%.


You need to look at the actual numbers though and see what you are really getting. You are arguing that extra spell power is useless because it can overheal, but haste is great because it can top people off faster. Looking at the numbers extracted from Constantius' armory, the actual loss would be 0.5% haste and the gain would be 188 spell power. That much spell power will increase the healing of a flash heal by 5% but make it cast 0.5% slower. And by 0.5% I mean 1/200th. That's 7.5 milliseconds slower. How can anyone argue that you're saving lives in the extra 7.5 milliseconds of haste, but not in the extra 120 damage healed by Flash Heal?

#33 RootBreaker

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 04:02 PM

The real impact is for group healing though. I did a quick analysis of gemming in Constantius' gear for example, and if he switched his gems from int/haste focused to spell power, and started using Frost Wyrm instead of Distilled Wisdom, here's the net change in stats:

+192 spell power
-32 Int (-0.5% crit)
-16 Spirit (-4.5 spell power)
-16 Haste (-0.5% haste)

How does this change affect a Prayer of Healing? For prayer, it's an extra 188 * 1.1 (Spiritual Healing) * 1.1 (Divine Providence) * 1.35 (crit rate) per target. That's 307, or 1535 total, not counting heals from the glyph and ignoring overheals (for now). We need to account for the loss of 0.5% crit and haste though. With 2700-ish spell power, a typical non-crit prayer of healing hits for 22500 for the whole group. Including a 35% crit rate, this is an average 30375. The crit loss costs 0.005 * 0.5 * 22500 = 56 healing and the haste lost costs 0.005 * 30375 = 152, for a net loss of 206 healing.

That makes the total net change be 1535 - 206 = 1329 extra damage healed per prayer, or 265 per target. Even with something like 40% overhealing, this is still a clear win.

I'm not sure how you can only lose 32 int if you're switching from distilled wisdom to frost wyrm.

Also, your math assumes that 35% crit rate is a 35% increase. Since heals only crit for +50%, a 35% crit rate is a 17.5% increase. Also, you're not including the spellpower coefficient of prayer of healing.

Besides, no one's arguing that distilled wisdom is a superior throughput flask. It's used for mana regen.

#34 tedv

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 04:13 PM

I'm not sure how you can only lose 32 int if you're switching from distilled wisdom to frost wyrm.

Also, your math assumes that 35% crit rate is a 35% increase. Since heals only crit for +50%, a 35% crit rate is a 17.5% increase. Also, you're not including the spellpower coefficient of prayer of healing.

Besides, no one's arguing that distilled wisdom is a superior throughput flask. It's used for mana regen.


Sorry that should have been 97 int, which is 1.5% lost. Edited the post with the new numbers, but it's still heavily biased towards spell power.

I did count the "crits heal for 50% more" in the formula:

The crit loss costs 0.015 * 0.5 * 22500 = 168 healing


The 0.5 is the 50% coefficient.

The spell power coefficient of Prayer of Healing is 1.0 I thought, so it was implicit. Even if it's 3.0/3.5 though, the net change is still over 1000 extra healing from the proposed gear/consumable swap.

#35 TheDoctor

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 04:32 PM

-snip-
The real impact is for group healing though. I did a quick analysis of gemming in Constantius' gear for example, and if he switched his gems from int/haste focused to spell power, and started using Frost Wyrm instead of Distilled Wisdom, here's the net change in stats:

+192 spell power
-32 Int (-0.5% crit)
-16 Spirit (-4.5 spell power)
-16 Haste (-0.5% haste)

How does this change affect a Prayer of Healing? For prayer, it's an extra 188 * 1.1 (Spiritual Healing) * 1.1 (Divine Providence) * 1.35 (crit rate) per target. That's 307, or 1535 total, not counting heals from the glyph and ignoring overheals (for now). We need to account for the loss of 0.5% crit and haste though. With 2700-ish spell power, a typical non-crit prayer of healing hits for 22500 for the whole group. Including a 35% crit rate, this is an average 30375. The crit loss costs 0.005 * 0.5 * 22500 = 56 healing and the haste lost costs 0.005 * 30375 = 152, for a net loss of 206 healing.

That makes the total net change be 1535 - 206 = 1329 extra damage healed per prayer, or 265 per target. Even with something like 40% overhealing, this is still a clear win.


The the +sp case you have as 188*1.1*1.1*1.35 when I actually think you should be showing it as 192*.8057*1.1*1.1*(.65+1.5*.35) which instead yields a value of ~220.

Obviously switching from heavier regen stats to output stats will result in an output gain. Whether that is needed/desired is a completely different evaluation.

Rather than looking at absolutes you should probably look at it from the % gain/loss standpoint. So really what you are modifying is the (base+sp*coeff) portion of the healing value so looking at the comparison it should be shown that it is a (2150+2892*coeff)/(2150+2700*coeff) = 1.0357% of the original value, @2700 SP... You should notice that as SP from other sources increases the gain from a static value source like Frost Wyrm or an individual gem decreases. Then if you evaluate the haste & crit cost you would find that ((1+.5(Crit-0.015))(Haste - .005)/((1+.5Crit)(Haste)) @20% haste 30% crit = .9893% the spell power loss is less than .001%..

So +SP you gain ~3.57% throughput at the loss of ~1.07%, for a net gain of ~2.5%. In the process you lose mana regen, which should be accounted for if you want a valid comparison of the trade off considering it is obvious that the gemming/flask isn't for it's throughput it is for the regen.

#36 RootBreaker

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 05:24 PM

Sorry that should have been 97 int, which is 1.5% lost. Edited the post with the new numbers, but it's still heavily biased towards spell power.

I did count the "crits heal for 50% more" in the formula:

The crit loss costs 0.015 * 0.5 * 22500 = 168 healing


The 0.5 is the 50% coefficient.

The spell power coefficient of Prayer of Healing is 1.0 I thought, so it was implicit. Even if it's 3.0/3.5 though, the net change is still over 1000 extra healing from the proposed gear/consumable swap.

According to the 1st post in this thread, the PoH coefficient is 80.7%. I think that's based off 1.88 (for being a healing spell) * 3/3.5 (for cast time) * 0.5 (for being an aoe spell).

Also, that's not the only formula in your post that used crit.

How does this change affect a Prayer of Healing? For prayer, it's an extra 188 * 1.1 (Spiritual Healing) * 1.1 (Divine Providence) * 1.35 (crit rate) per target. That's 307, or 1535 total, not counting heals from the glyph and ignoring overheals (for now). We need to account for the loss of 0.5% crit and haste though. With 2700-ish spell power, a typical non-crit prayer of healing hits for 22500 for the whole group. Including a 35% crit rate, this is an average 30375.


That should be:

188 * 1.1 (Spiritual Healing) * 1.1 (Divine Providence) * 1.175 (benefit from crit rate) * 0.807 (poh coefficient)

With 2700-ish spell power, a typical non-crit prayer of healing hits for 22500 for the whole group. Including a 35% crit rate, this is an average 26437.



#37 tedv

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 05:57 PM

I've been looking at Ulduar boss fights on wowwebstats.com and wowmeteronline.com for estimates of general mana usage and efficiency. Here are some rough data points to provide context:

* For a typical 5 minute fight, one third of the mana pool comes from the base mana and one third is from Spirit regeneration. About 30% is replenishment and shadow fiend and other things that scale based on total mana. The other 5% is from random procs, potions, and such. This is on the order of 60k mana total.
* Increases in intellect are linearly correlated with around 63% of total available man and have a square root correlation with the 33% from spirit. In other words, if you increase your base mana pool by 10%, you'll increase your total available mana by maybe 7%.

All of this is for holy by the way. Sorry, discipline priests. (Side note: we might want to fork two separate theorycrafting threads, as the equations change quite a bit for discipline.)

So with that in mind, we can calculate the mana lost from losing 97 intellect and 16 spirit. After accounting for kings, this is 107 int and 18 spirit on the character sheet.

Intellect: Worth 1605 base mana, or 3210 throughout the fight. Also increases total spirit regen by 5%. This is another 976 mana, for 4186 total.
Spirit: Worth 390 mana in a 5 minute fight with 30% holy concentration uptime.

So the total gain is 4576 mana. That's... decent but not amazing. How much of that mana is actually spent? If you're ending fights above the 4.5k mana mark, then the intellect was useless. If you're ending exactly at 0 mana, then I understand the justification. I ran some quick numbers on how much of that extra mana you'd need to spend for it to beat spell power, and if you even end the fight with 1200 extra mana, spell power still won.

#38 Ceralyn

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 06:36 PM

For your side note, there is a Discipline compendium as companion to this one. Right now I think most of us are waiting for TheDoctor's spreadsheet.

#39 constantius

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 06:40 PM

I started churning through some numbers, but found some major discrepancies between mine and yours, and don't have time to finalize it now. One note that I definitely can point at where you're off is your estimate of 1/3rd base + 1/3rd spirit. If you are limiting it to *only* spirit-based regen, that's fine and it works out about correct, but if you're just basing it off "regen that comes every 5 seconds without procs", then it's more like 40% from that, and under 25% from mana pool size.

Typical holy mana pool size is ~ 23,000. At 500 Mp5 I5SR, you get a minimum of 30,000 mana back from I5SR regen over a 5 minute fight. HC procs only increase this number (by up to 6-7k).

The other thing I noticed is that you say 107 intellect (raid-buffed) is worth 4.2k mana. This is incorrect. It is 1605 base + 803 shadowfiend + 578 mana tide + 1203 (replenish) + spirit-based ~ 5.1k.
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#40 tedv

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 07:09 PM

I started churning through some numbers, but found some major discrepancies between mine and yours, and don't have time to finalize it now. One note that I definitely can point at where you're off is your estimate of 1/3rd base + 1/3rd spirit. If you are limiting it to *only* spirit-based regen, that's fine and it works out about correct, but if you're just basing it off "regen that comes every 5 seconds without procs", then it's more like 40% from that, and under 25% from mana pool size.

Typical holy mana pool size is ~ 23,000. At 500 Mp5 I5SR, you get a minimum of 30,000 mana back from I5SR regen over a 5 minute fight. HC procs only increase this number (by up to 6-7k).

The other thing I noticed is that you say 107 intellect (raid-buffed) is worth 4.2k mana. This is incorrect. It is 1605 base + 803 shadowfiend + 578 mana tide + 1203 (replenish) + spirit-based ~ 5.1k.


It's true those calculations ignore m/5, but Holy priests don't have any of that on their gear (if they can help it). The estimates from WWS reports were:

* 1/3 Base mana
* 1/3 Spirit-based Regen
* 1/3 Replenishment, Shadow Fiend, and other stuff that scales off base mana

What you term "regen that comes every 5 seconds without procs" is really the merger of the second two categories. I separated the two categories react differently as your base mana pool increases.

My estimate was 4500 mana from 107 intellect included base, shadow fiend, replenish, and spirit altogether. I ignored mana tide because I never get it, and frankly never needed it. (We normally give it to shaman, paladins, and occasionally DPS casters.) If you include that 600 mana from mana tide, you get the 5.1k number you cite. So our estimates are in agreement there.

For the record, a typical holy mana pool is only 23k for priests intentionally stacking int. For priests stacking spell power, it's between 20k and 21k. You are estimating 37k total mana from general continual effects like replenishment and spirit. When added to a base mana pool of 20k to 23k, this is 57k to 60k total mana. Add another 3k for incidental procs (metagem, potion) and you have between 60k to 63k total mana, which is in line with my estimate of 60k total mana in a 5 minute. I think we are in agreement on this point too.

So what's the major discrepancy?




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