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Discipline Healing Compendium v3.1


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#1 TheDoctor

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 04:53 PM

Discipline Healing Compendium

More additions to come...

This compendium will work hand-in-hand with Constantius's thread general priest items will remain there primarily. Disc specific items, additions… etc will be here. This is a compilation of data contributed on threads such as the "WotLK Healing Compendium v3.0..." and the previous Discipline Priest compendium thread. For specific information about Shadow specs please refer to there latest threads for the most current information.

Disclaimer: This thread and this post will evolve with current theorycraft. While the data presented here should be accurate it is advisable that you use it with some discretion. Errors, omissions, and significant additions should be PM'd to me to ensure I update the main body of this post. Remember Discipline has only been a viable PvE healing spec for a short time and doesn't have a long theorycraft history from which to draw.

Terminology
A short list of terms that will be used in this thread and in the dicussion following.

BT - Borrowed Time
DA - Divine Aegis
WS - Weakened Soul
oo5sr - Out of 5 second rule
i5sr - Inside of 5 second rule
PoM - Prayer of Mending
PoH - Prayer of Healing
HpM - Healing per Mana, a measurement of efficiency
HpS - Healing per Second, a measurement of throughput
MpS - Mitigation per Second, a measurement of throughput

I. Spec's & Talents
A. Disc Specs
There are currently two baseline methods for talent spec as a Discipline priest. There have been several more exotic multi-tree spec’s proposed though as of yet the viability of them has not been demonstrated well enough to be included. The primary difference between the two base spec’s is the Holy talent Improved Healing. Based on the depth into the Holy tree to acquire it (IH) some items in the Disc tree have to be sacrificed.

In either of the following specs the focus is single target healing through the use of both mitigation and direct healing. Raid healing support can be accomplished through PW:S, BT’d PoH, PoM, and quick reactive heals.

57/13/0, this spec has all of the Discipline tools available. The remaining point is discretionary.

53/18/0. This spec trades 4 points in Disc for Improved Healing. In Disc I would sacrifice and go with 1/2 Grace, 1/3 Improved Flash Heal, and without Power Infusion. The 2 points in Spell Warding can be spent at your discretion.

B. Talents
Q: What are the most important talents for Discipline?
A: The majority of the PvE talents in the Discipline tree are necessary to reach full potential. The most important talents are Penance, Divine Aegis, Focused Power, and Aspiration. There are quite a few other good talents though I would not sacrifice these from any build.

Q: How valuable is Improved Healing?
A: This is an efficiency talent and only has value so far as your difficulty with mana management.

Penance is 618 x 15% = 92.7 mana saved if used on CD. It is worth…
~72.42 mp5 (w/Glyph)
~57.94 mp5 (w/out Glyph)

Divine Hymn is 2434 x 15% = 365 mana saved. Because of the long CD on this ability it isn’t a significant amount over the duration of the fight, the longer the fight the less mp5 contribution.

Greater Heal is 1236 x 15% = 185.4 mana saved per cast. This is a decent savings and you can calculate the equivalent mp5 you would receive based on the number of casts of your play style. You can approximate it at 15 mp5 for each cast of GH over a one minute period.

Q: Is 1/2 Grace superior to 2/2 Grace?
A: It provides the chance that if you FH/GH off your primary healing assignment that the Grace stack does not transition with a single heal. If you Penance off target there is a 1/8 chance it doesn’t transition. For this reason some people consider taking 1/2 superior though this would be the incorrect reason for it to be superior.

Re-stacking Grace on the primary target comes as a cost. Rember Penance counts as 3 heals… This section has been reworked to better display the cost of going down to 1/2 Grace.

1/2 Grace – It will take 6 direct heals to ensure a triple stack of Grace at greater than 98%. The average cost to Healing/Mitigation provided during this time is 6.5% and it could cost as much as 8.3%. If there is some bad RNG it could take longer than 6 heals which will increase the average over a 7% loss.

2/2 Grace – It will take 3 direct heals to re-stack Grace. The total loss of healing on the target is the equivalent of 4.7% of the total Healing/Mitigation during the process of restacking when compared to 1/2.

While maintaining Grace on the primary target is great, the cost that is incurred if it does move with 1/2 Grace is quite a bit higher than if you have 2/2 Grace. If you don’t off heal it is a viable option because it will not take long to stack it and is not likely to fall off. Though it is not better because it give the possibility of the stack not moving and the point shouldn’t be dropped for this reason. It is actually overall better to keep the second point if you will off-heal because the penalty is less. You could drop the point in the process of pickup Improved Healing if you plan to not off-heal and risk the stack to often.

II. Mana Regeneration
A. Base Regen
As a traditionally "spirit based" mana regeneration class. The level 80 version of the mana regeneration from Int and Spi now follow the following formula's:

oo5sr = 0.016725 * Spirit * SqRt(Intellect)
i5sr = oo5sr * .17/.33/.50 (Based on the points in meditation. 3/3 Meditation is standard in all specs.)

This portion of the mana regeneration model is the only reason for Discipline to utilize Spirit at all.

B. Rapture
Rapture had a major overhaul with the 3.1 release. It was quite imbalanced in its previous incarnation, though the current mechanic has some issues. Rapture provides 1.5/2.0/2.5% of total mana when a PW:S is completely consumed or dispelled and can only occur once per 12 seconds.

The maximum regeneration from Rapture is:
(Mana Pool) x Return% / 12 * 5 = X mp5

The maximal return is unrealistic and should instead be evaluated based on the amount per proc and the proc rate received. Instead you find that:
(Mana Pool) x Return% / 12 = X mp5 per proc, where the proc rate is from 0-5 proc’s/min.

Example:
21568 x 2.5% / 12 = 44.93 mp5/proc... The PTR proc rate data I was running was ~3.4 proc/min. So this would indicate ~152.8 mp5.


There needs to be more data collected and theorycraft analysis on the proc rate. The proc rate depends on multitude of factors. For a single target the proc rate is maximally 4/min based on the WS debuff. How close to this can be achieved is based on damage income and pattern, target avoidance, target mitigation..etc calculating an average “time to consumption”… Optimally a time to consumption of less than 3 seconds yields 4 proc/min.

1 Int = ~0.1538 mp5, maximally
1 Int = ~0.1045 mp5, 3.4proc/min

The mechanic behind Rapture indicates that PW:S should be used with regularity on any target that will benefit from being shielded and provides the potential or guarantee of the shield being completely consumed.

C. Replenishment
Replenishment is a talent available to a multitude of class/specs... The buff provides a 15 second buff on up to 10 people that restores 0.25% of total mana every second for the duration of the buff. Mental Strength couples well with Replenishment in a raid/group environment for Discipline.

1199 Int provides 17705 mana. That 17705 mana at 0.25% is 44.2625 mana per second or ~221 mp5. Based on the 221 mp5 @ 1199 Int you find that -

1 Int = ~0.18458 mp5 (not accounting Blessing of Kings or Mental Strength)

D. Mana Pool
The larger the mana pool the better the longevity over the course of the fight. This equates to mana regen based on the fight duration.

Mana Pool / Duration * 5 = X mp5, working with a 5 min fight duration at the previously demonstrated Int amount it works out too.

17705 / 300 * 5 = ~295.08 mp5

1 Int = ~0.2461 mp5 (not accounting Blessing of Kings or Mental Strength)

E. Spirit vs. mp5
The more Int the more valuable Spi becomes, though without a secondary benefit of having Spi it is a fairly weak stat for Disc. It takes approximately 3 Spi to equal 1 mp5.

Giving the opportunity Disc should choose quality mp5 gear over spirit.

III. Raiding as Discipline
Discipline can be used very dynamically in a raid environment much like Holy was in BC and before 3.1 released. While all healers should be less concerned with meters and more about keeping people alive, as Disc you need to be even less reliant on current meters. The majority of Disc contribution is not visible on most meters (see Add-On section).

A. Tank Healing
The primary tools as a tank healer are Penance, Flash Heal, PW:S, PoM, and occasionally Greater Heal.

Q: Should PW:S be saved for “burst” healing on the tank?
A: In most cases it is far and away more important to maintain the Weakened Soul debuff on the tank to ensure the highest crit rate possible. There are occasions where it may be necessary to line-up the application of PW:S with large strikes on the tank. Even at these times the cast shouldn’t be delayed unless absolutely required for tank survival, instead the order of casting should align such that the PW:S lands prior to the big strike as often as possible. Penance alone is significant “burst” and provides enough for most encounters.


B. Raid Healing Support
The new talent Soul Warding and the change to PoH group targeting provide significant improvement to Disc raid healing. The large amount of predictable raid damage in Ulduar provides ample opportunity for Disc to pre-shield to help create time for the other raid healers. Shielding of raid members provides additional BT casts on either the tank or for reactive raid healing and works well with the new Rapture mechanic.

Disc is NOT an optimal choice for raid healing. It is however the only choice for raid mitigation so switching specs isn't optimal. Weaving PW:S onto raid members, well timed PoH, and PoM are more than enough to allow Disc to fill a niche in any raid. All this can be done while healing the MT if necessary.

C. Specific Fight Information
This section will be updated with some best practices or helpful play style information that applies to specific fights, damage patterns …etc. <Still In-Progress>

IV. Healer Interaction
Q: Disc and Holy Priests working together reducing PoM performance due to PW:S?
A: Discipline and Holy priests complete each other very well in a raid situation. Shielded targets will delay the bouncing of PoM though it is not enough to greatly reduce the healing of the Holy priests stronger PoM. The goal is to keep the raid alive not to “win the meters”. The use of PW:S provides a great amount of survivability and even if it slows a PoM bounces.

V. Maximizing
A. Stat Weighting
The stat ratings presented are generated from the Disc Spreadsheet that will be attached in a later section.

Thoughput stats...
  • Intelligence - 0.16
  • Spell Power - 1.0
  • Crit Rating - 0.48
  • Haste Rating - 0.59

Discipline through use of BT and with Enlightenment has a lower need for gearing to haste. It is valuable for total output at the above stat weighting up to the point you reach the "soft cap" of a total haste of 50%. At that point the GCD is 1 second and more haste impacts less of the Disc arsenal of tools. This point varies based on the buffs available and should be individually calculated.

Longevity stats...
  • 1 Intelligence = 0.74 mp5
  • 1 Spirit - 0.33 mp5

For those that utilize a combined stat weighting you can use the following. Though I usually work with them seperately in order to better balance my gear selection. The longevity stats are important to balance mana burn and mana gain for your playstyle, mana beyond that point is unnecessary.

Combined stats... Using a 60/40 split for throughput vs. longevity.
  • Intelligence - 0.65
  • Spirit - 0.22
  • Haste Rating - 0.59
  • Crit Ratng - 0.48
  • Spell Power - 1.0
  • Mp5 - 0.67

B. Gearing
When gearing you need to consider what stats you are short on at the current time. This means looking at do you need more mana regen or greater throughput? Be sure to consider which gems and enchants will couple with the piece.

Discipline priests should always consider gear with Mp5 in place of Spirit. For regen Intellect is ultimately the best stat because it has dual value through conversion to crit at a rate of 132:1. Once you consider Blessing of Kings and Mental Strength 1 Int very nearly compares to 1 Mp5.

*The following post will present the current BiS "known" options.

C. Gemming
The most valuable gems are... There are more obviously, though these are the ones to consider for Discipline gearing. If gearing for Holy/Disc combined refer to the WotLK Healing Compendium to get help select the best overal gem.
Red

Yellow


Purple

Green

Orange




Metagems
Primary choices... Selection based on whether you need more regen or more throughput.
- The highest regen meta available until extreme levels of Int. A 45-second ICD proc that restores 600 mana and 21 intellect.
- A good choice for mixed throughput and longevity.

After additionally theorycrafting it is possible this could be a contender for the best throughput meta.
- Possible contender with ESD for output.

D. Enchants
Currently the enchanting of either Disc or Holy is fairly similar. Reference the WotLK Healing Compendium v3.1 for specific enchants. Discipline can generally focus on the higher throughput enchants as regeneration is less of an issue generally. In some cases such as Boots taking a Spirit enchant may be the best option even though it wouldn't be the optimal choice with different options available.

E. Trinkets
<Still In-Progress>

F. Glyphs
Major Slots
Required:
Glyph of Penance

Viable Options:
Glyph of Power Word: Shield
Glyph of Flash Heal
Glyph of Prayer of Healing

Of the options for the remaining 2 Major glyphs dropping FH is an option if you don't need additional efficiency in order to keep glyphs that improve throughput. If efficiency of FH is something you need then it would probably be PoH that would be on the chopping block.

Minor Slots
There are a few decent minor glyphs you can choose between.

Glyph of Fading - Good savings on mana.
Glyph of Levitate - Saves from purchasing or farming spell casting materials. Kind of handy.
Glyph of Shadowfiend - With improved Shadow Fiend survivability this glyph may be outdated.
Glyph of Shadow Protection - Not necessary but could be the replacement for Shadowfiend Glyph.

V. Add-On
The RecountGuessedAbsorb addition to Recount made available by Elisa, is proving to be a viable current option for giving general information for mitigation/absorption provided. This can be used by raid leaders and healers looking for more real-time informaiton about the contribution of Disc priests to the larger raid healing environment.

VII. Spreadsheet
Disc Priest Spreadsheet this link will be updated as I continue to evolve this information source.

This is the first ready for public consumption copy of my spreadsheet. I am still working on adding more things to this spreadsheet. It is not complete yet but is in a workable form that should be usable by most people, you will notice some areas of the sheet are blank because they have not been ported over from less 'pretty' spreadsheet.

Please do NOT clutter this thread with discussion of the spreadsheet. If there are items that you require assistance with, improvements that you think should be made, or corrections to any mistakes that may be present please PM me. If there is sufficient need for discussion it may warrant another thread but at this time I would like to keep it in PM.

PM me any specific information not listed you would like in the compendium, or sections that you think would be valuable.

#2 TheDoctor

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:33 PM

This thread is now open for discussion and comment. There are some more additions I have in progress for the main body and the spreadsheet I have developed will both be made available as soon as possible.

#3 Bottles

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 05:17 AM

Has anyone figured out what the new crit "soft-cap" for us is? Before 3.1, it was believed to be 30-35% after raid buffs because DA did not stack, and any more after that was usually lost as overheal. How much crit is now needed to maintain a a decent uptime on DA currently?

Some nice trinkets for us from Ulduar:
Pandora's Plea - Mimiron25
Sif's Remembrance - Hodir25 (hard mode)
Eye of the Broodmother - Razorscale10
Energy Siphon Flame Leviathan10

#4 Sharajat

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 06:14 AM

Has anyone figured out what the new crit "soft-cap" for us is? Before 3.1, it was believed to be 30-35% after raid buffs because DA did not stack, and any more after that was usually lost as overheal. How much crit is now needed to maintain a a decent uptime on DA currently?

Some nice trinkets for us from Ulduar:
Pandora's Plea - Mimiron25
Sif's Remembrance - Hodir25 (hard mode)
Eye of the Broodmother - Razorscale10
Energy Siphon Flame Leviathan10

Is crit really even any good? About 30% or more of my casts are PW:S currently. PW:S gets almost no benefit from crit (glyph).

I wouldn't even seek it out, and I'm strongly considering something else over Soul of the Dead - If I had Illustration of the Dragon Soul, it wouldn't even be part of my throughput set for Disc.

#5 Bottles

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 08:31 AM

Is crit really even any good? About 30% or more of my casts are PW:S currently. PW:S gets almost no benefit from crit (glyph).

I wouldn't even seek it out, and I'm strongly considering something else over Soul of the Dead - If I had Illustration of the Dragon Soul, it wouldn't even be part of my throughput set for Disc.

Of course it's useful, it increases heals and procs DA. But I still don't know up to what point it's good before it becomes "useless". Surely the other 70% of spells you cast debefit from it?

30% shield are abornally high to me, even without a cooldown, I still get more Penance and flashs heals than shield, which both benefit from crit. I don't see how that's even possible unless you're trying to heal the raid, but if that's so, you might as well go holy instead.

But even before the current patch, I did not like Soul of the Dead. There were lots of crit to be had from gear, and with the old rupture, the mp5 gain from the proc was wasted. I prefered the spellpower +proc trinkets like Forethought Talisman and Illustration of the Dragon Soul, and for extra regen I had the JC rabbit trinket socketed with 2x int gems.

#6 Sharajat

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 10:01 AM

Of course it's useful, it increases heals and procs DA. But I still don't know up to what point it's good before it becomes "useless". Surely the other 70% of spells you cast debefit from it?

30% shield are abornally high to me, even without a cooldown, I still get more Penance and flashs heals than shield, which both benefit from crit. I don't see how that's even possible unless you're trying to heal the raid, but if that's so, you might as well go holy instead.

But even before the current patch, I did not like Soul of the Dead. There were lots of crit to be had from gear, and with the old rupture, the mp5 gain from the proc was wasted. I prefered the spellpower +proc trinkets like Forethought Talisman and Illustration of the Dragon Soul, and for extra regen I had the JC rabbit trinket socketed with 2x int gems.


30% is abnormally LOW compared to where I am. The reason is that Ulduar is just that sort of instance- there's a lot of mechanics that require someone to not be taking damage twice in a row. There's a lot of predictable AOEs. There's a lot of just generally predictable damage.

Disc is not a tank healer really, nor is it a raid healer at the moment. It's a damage mitigator, and for that you want more spellpower.

Crit is truly entirely useless, and I'd dump it. I think as we see more and more WWS reports of Ulduar people are going to reach that very same conclusion. Having a higher crit rating does not help you in the least. You still have a lower throughput than a Paladin no matter what you do, and you still have segments of enormous incoming damage that can be stopped by PW:S applications to many people.

P.S. Your armory doesn't exist. There's a problem with your profile.

#7 Bottles

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 10:40 AM

30% is abnormally LOW compared to where I am. The reason is that Ulduar is just that sort of instance- there's a lot of mechanics that require someone to not be taking damage twice in a row. There's a lot of predictable AOEs. There's a lot of just generally predictable damage.

Disc is not a tank healer really, nor is it a raid healer at the moment. It's a damage mitigator, and for that you want more spellpower.

Crit is truly entirely useless, and I'd dump it. I think as we see more and more WWS reports of Ulduar people are going to reach that very same conclusion. Having a higher crit rating does not help you in the least. You still have a lower throughput than a Paladin no matter what you do, and you still have segments of enormous incoming damage that can be stopped by PW:S applications to many people.

P.S. Your armory doesn't exist. There's a problem with your profile.

Admitedly, I haven't stepped into Ulduar yet since I'm still waiting on an invite from my new guild. Though I don't see how crit can be completely useless, or that we have lower output than a paladin. Maybe we show up as having lower hps or healing on recount because our shields don't show. But compared with a a paladin that has similar gear, I can heal a tank just as well. The holy paladin in my old guild always had more overheal on the fights when I was disc, and I always managed more healing on the tank than he did. Even before 3.1, I felt that a disc priest was superior to a holy paladin when it came to tank healing, mainly because we didn't just have high burst with the correct gear, we also offered damage mitigation through shields, but the biggest thing which hindered us was that our shields screwed up rage/mana regen for tanks.

And I didn't say I valued crit over spellpower. Right now I'm gearing for sp > haste > int > mp5/spi > crit as I already have 29% crit unbuffed with renewed hope. But I would still like to know what the crit "soft cap" for us is. Maintaining decent DA uptime is very important imo. It's still our biggest damage mitigator, and since it relys on crit to proc, crit is pretty important.

And what about the other 70% of your heals which aren't shields? They should benefit from cit too.

I'm transfering servers atm, so my armory hasn't updated yet I'm guessing, it's been a week already though. But my self-buffed stats are 2480sp, 8% haste, 29% crit, 21900 mana pool, 310mp5. I can bump my haste up to 10%, but i lose about 3% crit that way. When I start raiding again, I'm going to start upping my regen stats a bit first, mainly due to the rupture nerf.

#8 Sebalot

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 10:54 AM

For glyphs, I settled on Penance, Power Word: Shield and then as the last one Prayer of Healing. I don't think Glyph of Flash heal is needed yet. I haven't been close to having any issues with mana yet. Perhaps during the hard modes. I am however, no matter what role I have, likely to use Prayer of Healing to help deal with raidwide aoe damage. So that Glyph gives good value.

What are peoples view of Penance? I tend to just use it in a normal rotation. If it is up, I use it. Otherwise I Flash Heal. It seems too useful a general heal to just save for situations where someone needs burst healing. Anyone tried a tactic where you mostly flash heal and just have Penance in your back pocket ready for a situation where someone needs a heal very fast?

#9 Sharajat

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 11:04 AM

Admitedly, I haven't stepped into Ulduar yet since I'm still waiting on an invite from my new guild. Though I don't see how crit can be completely useless, or that we have lower output than a paladin. Maybe we show up as having lower hps or healing on recount because our shields don't show. But compared with a a paladin that has similar gear, I can heal a tank just as well. The holy paladin in my old guild always had more overheal on the fights when I was disc, and I always managed more healing on the tank than he did. Even before 3.1, I felt that a disc priest was superior to a holy paladin when it came to tank healing, mainly because we didn't just have high burst with the correct gear, we also offered damage mitigation through shields, but the biggest thing which hindered us was that our shields screwed up rage/mana regen for tanks.

And I didn't say I valued crit over spellpower. Right now I'm gearing for sp > haste > int > mp5/spi > crit as I already have 29% crit unbuffed with renewed hope. But I would still like to know what the crit "soft cap" for us is. Maintaining decent DA uptime is very important imo. It's still our biggest damage mitigator, and since it relys on crit to proc, crit is pretty important.

And what about the other 70% of your heals which aren't shields? They should benefit from cit too.

I'm transfering servers atm, so my armory hasn't updated yet I'm guessing. But my self-buffed stats are 2480sp, 8% haste, 29% crit, 21900 mana pool, 310mp5. When I start raiding again, I'm going to start upping my regen stats a bit first, mainly due to the rupture nerf.



It's reasonably simple. The HPS on Holy Light is around 7-8,000, so is the HPS on Penance. The HPS on Flash is about 4-5,000. This is with Aegis factored in. Current content you don't really see this disparity because there's nothing that's hitting for nearly what the mobs in Ulduar are.

Meanwhile the HPS on PW:S are about 8-9,000 if borrowed time is up (7k shields, 1.3-1.4k heal, 1 second cast). Holy Light falls short, and everything, EVERYTHING falls short of holy light. On any fight where another priest might be casting Flash Heal, a druid Nourish, a Shaman LHW (or even a badly jumped CH), PW:S is much, much better. Add in how you can use it to trivialize mechanics like Tantrum and Jets, and suddenly you're not a tank healer any more. You're a raid healer with a sidejob on the tank.

PW:S is your major spell, and that spell is too good to have any crit on. I'd agree with the breakdown you posted, but as I said before, my feeling is that the soft cap on crit is 0% - any more than that, and you're already looking to shed some crit.

#10 Bloodsiren

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 04:00 PM

I am by no means an expert and I rarely ever post in here, but prefer to use these threads as a go to place to learn to be a better player. I also am not very good at the higher lvl math and theorycrafting.

With that being said, I wanted to propose a talent specc I haven't seen yet in the threads. It includes 2pts in holy reach. I raid on a disc priest as my main and have been using this specc: MMO-Champion Talent Calculator since 3.1 came out in 10 and 25 man Ulduar.

I agree that in 25man Ulduar with enough other healers to help out, my role as a disc priest is primarily for tank healing. However since the patch came out, our other priests have been gone for our 25man attempts and we also were in there with 6 healers which meant I needed to heal both tanks and assist in raid healing. Holy reach seems much more useful to me than improved healing with the changes to both Holy Nova and PoH. I currently have Penance, PW:S, and the holy nova glyph as my 3 majors. I am able to use holy nova quickly on my group for instant heals when I also need to be moving. We have 2 resto shaman and with the way fights are, my PoH isn't something I am able to use as often since I find flash heal/bubble to be much better at saving people.

I also saw no reason to put any points in divine fury. Flash heal is better to use as disc and the other spells are for dps. My dual-specc is shadow and I haven't cast a smite or holy nova since 3.1. It used to make sense because I did dailies as my raid specc, but now I do them as shadow. Renew and Spell Warding seemed much more useful with my roll as a tank healer (renew) and all the aoe spell dmg that I've encountered so far inside Ulduar. Also, I used desperate prayer almost every time the CD was up on boss fights inside Ulduar. It is an extremely useful survival tool imho when you are short handed healers.

In 10man Ulduar, I was able to have the ranged in my group and the increased range from Holy Reach enabled Holy Nova to get more people in range of me and PoH reached more people for both groups. With divine aegis proccs, I could often see multiple DA bubbles on the raid after casting.

I'm not saying I'm right about disc priests taking Holy Reach, but I haven't seen it discussed at all and thought I would open up the discussion. (And yes, I have read through virtually every priest thread here, though admittedly with the hundred + pages in all the priest forums here, I could possibly have missed it and apologize if I did)

#11 TheDoctor

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 07:31 PM

Spell Power is a great stat... Easily the best throughput stat as Sharajat points out. Though not having Crit isn't an option I find reasonable. Divine Aegis is extremely strong as well from a single target and raid healing/mitigation standpoint.

PoM - Procs DA. That is a 1500-2000 shield which doesn't require any effort.

PoH - Is extremely useful in the heavy raid damage environment that Ulduar presents. DA procs on PoH provide DA shields that will be very useful. BT'd PoH considering DA and the glyph's HoT is > PW:S spam alone.

As a MT healer for my guild I have been able to heal the MT while providing a great deal of raid healing support. It is fairly easy to weave PW:S between heals on the MT without presenting an overt risk of the tank dying. This is especially true once the Penance Glyph is in use.

As it stands right now I see there being 2 Roles for Disc in the raid environment.

MT Focus
The primary healer on the MT. Most fights there are periods where assistance with the raid can be provided via 1 second PW:S, PoM, and through PoH on the tank group at a minimum. For which Crit/Haste both have value. Haste such that raid buffed you reach 1 sec GCD with BT. There are some phases of fights where the tank healing is either non-existant or light enough that a lot of raid support can be provided. At those times PW:S and PoH are strong choices, PoH is greater than PW:S if it is effectively used... If the time is available prior to events such as Frozen Blows then pre-shielding is stronger.

Mitigation Support
In this role mitigation via DA/PW:S is provided where ever it is needed on demand. In some situations this will be as much of the raid as possible others it could be gripped/slag-pot'd/etc raid members and even other times it could be tanks. This is a new role for Disc as it previously wasn't possible with the 4 sec CD on PW:S, and now that there is no CD it opens up opportunities for Disc to contribute at a larger level.

Neither of the above two is greater than the other. Which role filled by the Disc priest needs to be driven by the need of your raid composition and healers available. If you have a Holy Paladin that is available for being the primary healer on the MT then transitioning to more of a mitigation support role may be greater benefit to the raid.

#12 Seacove

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 05:56 AM

With Ulduar 25 man falling quickly, and gear becoming available I was wondering what the current thoughts were on gearing for Disc.

I for one am specifically interested in everyone's thoughts on the 4 piece set bonus on tier 8.5, and if you think the bonus will outweigh possible Best in Slot non set gear.

It was obvious with tier 7.5 that the bonuses were for the most part entirely worthless for Disc so it was much more beneficial to simply grab best in slot based on stat weights.

While looking at the pieces the only thing that stands out as being not entirely favorable for disc would be the large quantities of spirit.








Edit: Also since I already opened up a gear discussion. What are everyone's thoughts on

#13 tsigo

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 07:31 AM

As Disc I'd imagine the 4pc T8 bonus will have close to 100% uptime during a boss encounter. Almost every piece of T8 is best in slot for all of the currently known gear. I'm sure there's at least two pieces out of the five slots that will be better and are yet to be discovered, but that bonus just seems too good for Disc.

#14 Liths

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 11:47 AM

I am by no means an expert and I rarely ever post in here, but prefer to use these threads as a go to place to learn to be a better player. I also am not very good at the higher lvl math and theorycrafting.

With that being said, I wanted to propose a talent specc I haven't seen yet in the threads. It includes 2pts in holy reach. I raid on a disc priest as my main and have been using this specc: MMO-Champion Talent Calculator since 3.1 came out in 10 and 25 man Ulduar.

I agree that in 25man Ulduar with enough other healers to help out, my role as a disc priest is primarily for tank healing. However since the patch came out, our other priests have been gone for our 25man attempts and we also were in there with 6 healers which meant I needed to heal both tanks and assist in raid healing. Holy reach seems much more useful to me than improved healing with the changes to both Holy Nova and PoH. I currently have Penance, PW:S, and the holy nova glyph as my 3 majors. I am able to use holy nova quickly on my group for instant heals when I also need to be moving. We have 2 resto shaman and with the way fights are, my PoH isn't something I am able to use as often since I find flash heal/bubble to be much better at saving people.

I also saw no reason to put any points in divine fury. Flash heal is better to use as disc and the other spells are for dps. My dual-specc is shadow and I haven't cast a smite or holy nova since 3.1. It used to make sense because I did dailies as my raid specc, but now I do them as shadow. Renew and Spell Warding seemed much more useful with my roll as a tank healer (renew) and all the aoe spell dmg that I've encountered so far inside Ulduar. Also, I used desperate prayer almost every time the CD was up on boss fights inside Ulduar. It is an extremely useful survival tool imho when you are short handed healers.

In 10man Ulduar, I was able to have the ranged in my group and the increased range from Holy Reach enabled Holy Nova to get more people in range of me and PoH reached more people for both groups. With divine aegis proccs, I could often see multiple DA bubbles on the raid after casting.

I'm not saying I'm right about disc priests taking Holy Reach, but I haven't seen it discussed at all and thought I would open up the discussion. (And yes, I have read through virtually every priest thread here, though admittedly with the hundred + pages in all the priest forums here, I could possibly have missed it and apologize if I did)

I wouldn't even consider a disc spec without Divine Fury post 3.1. Too many of our heals are hasted by borrowed time with the removal of the cooldown on pw:s, using those for flash heal is a terrible waste. A ~1.5 sec cast GHeal has so much higher HP/S than a 1 sec cast Flash Heal. And there's always those times when you need to squeeze out a bit of dps, like the heart phases on xt-002.

#15 Xaerran

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 04:36 PM

30% is abnormally LOW compared to where I am.


This is about inline with where I am, as a MT healer with sporadic PW:S on the raid.

Disc is not a tank healer really, nor is it a raid healer at the moment. It's a damage mitigator, and for that you want more spellpower.


I agree with this, the problem is, you select a "role" when you raid. You cannot proclaim to be the "damage mitigator" you are either assigned a group to heal, or a MT... as such, you should gear accordingly. IMO gearing for throughput is very effective if you are doing either of those. In Ulduar I have noticed a substantial increase in the need for mitigation, throughput and crit helps with both of those.

Crit is truly entirely useless, and I'd dump it.

Once again, this is based on role. you are going to see a lot of back and forth regarding this and is based on play style/role. I do agree throughput is evermore important now, but crit is still a stat which has some clout depending on healing assignment. I do not believe that magical 30% number still holds true. I believe it is lower, but that is primarily based on the reduced cast times of our bread and butter spells as well as the new found emphasis on PW:S.

and you still have segments of enormous incoming damage that can be stopped by PW:S applications to many people.

Bingo, you hit it the nail on the head here. It appears this became the goal with the buff which reduces all damage taken for the entire raid.

My .02... There needs to be a clear definition of what one's role is and perhaps gear accordingly. Some stats will weight more heavily then others based on spell rotation. Crit is not dead, haste is more important now that PoH and others are effective raid heals and throughput is probably the most important stat because so many of our abilities are SP dependant. I will see if I can help come up with numbers to back these opinions.

#16 Ceralyn

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 08:26 PM

An interesting quirk in the way rapture behaves came up while I was messing around on a Malygos fight:

Posted Image

Wow Web Stats

I haven't done any hard thorough testing, but this seems to be duplicateable when shields expire at the same time. It appears that there is a delay between calculating the rapture procs and the start of the 12 second cooldown. Possibly (probably) a bug, but interesting to note in any case.

#17 Promethia

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 11:23 PM

Discipline through use of BT and with Enlightenment has a lower need for gearing to haste. It is valuable for total output at the above stat weighting up to the point you reach the "soft cap" of a total haste of 50%. At that point the GCD is 1 second and more haste impacts less of the Disc arsenal of tools. This point varies based on the buffs available and should be individually calculated.

...

For those that utilize a combined stat weighting you can use the following. Though I usually work with them seperately in order to better balance my gear selection. The longevity stats are important to balance mana burn and mana gain for your playstyle, mana beyond that point is unnecessary.

Combined stats... Using a 60/40 split for throughput vs. longevity.


I agree that one should mostly gear to either longevity or throughput, rather than trying to come up with some combined metric. So why then offer a 60/40 throughput to logevity weight? That will imply (implicitly) that one should weigh thoughput more than longevity, which may be bad advice, especially at first. The general dogma is that for progression content, healers gear for longevity first then worry about throughput later. DPS is lower (relative to content), so longevity is more relevant. Unless there is in fundamental change in 3.1 content, that will almost certainly continue to be true.

Also, while it's fair enough to say that longevity beyond a certain point is not needed, throughput beyond that needed to heal spikes of incoming damage is also unnecessary. Of course having some margin for error on both fronts is good, but the itemization of healing gear is such that it requires no effort whatsoever to have enough throughput.

Fortunately. gearing for discipline is really quite easy. Spell power and intellect are very valuable but you don't have a lot of control over either, except when gemming or enchanting. Those two stats come on all cloth healer gear in about the same amounts on the same ilvl gear. You can optimize away if you like, but if you don't bother doing anything, you won't be far off. You can read long threads here on crit versus haste, which just proves it is a tough call and doesn't make a huge difference or else it wouldn't be controversial. Plus, unlike holy priests, disc priests do not value spirit much more than mp5, so that choice becomes non-issue as well. To me this is an advantage for discipline priests. If healer gear (i.e. no +hit cloth gear) drops, it's probably pretty good for you. That's pretty nice.

The debate is more about gemming. I like using orange, purple, and green gems since it makes fulfilling metagem requirements easy, and I only pick spell power, int, and either spirit or mp5 in some combination with each other. That's pretty simple and doesn't go far wrong. Others may like to add crit or haste, and that's reasonable if you're throughput starved, but intellect is better than either of those stats otherwise.


Regarding the haste "soft cap", with enlightenment and borrowed time, you reach the 1.0 second global cooldown cap with just another +13.2% haste, which is quite possible to reach.

#18 TheDoctor

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 12:13 AM

I agree that one should mostly gear to either longevity or throughput, rather than trying to come up with some combined metric. So why then offer a 60/40 throughput to logevity weight? That will imply (implicitly) that one should weigh thoughput more than longevity, which may be bad advice, especially at first. The general dogma is that for progression content, healers gear for longevity first then worry about throughput later. DPS is lower (relative to content), so longevity is more relevant. Unless there is in fundamental change in 3.1 content, that will almost certainly continue to be true.

Fortunately. gearing for discipline is really quite easy. Spell power and intellect are very valuable but you don't have a lot of control over either, except when gemming or enchanting. Those two stats come on all cloth healer gear in about the same amounts on the same ilvl gear. You can optimize away if you like, but if you don't bother doing anything, you won't be far off. You can read long threads here on crit versus haste, which just proves it is a tough call and doesn't make a huge difference or else it wouldn't be controversial. Plus, unlike holy priests, disc priests do not value spirit much more than mp5, so that choice becomes non-issue as well. To me this is an advantage for discipline priests. If healer gear (i.e. no +hit cloth gear) drops, it's probably pretty good for you. That's pretty nice.


I offered a combined score because as unfortunate as it may be there are those that look for some "magic system" that gives them an easy single solution. Mana is not unlimited in Ulduar but it isn't really a huge limited factor either for the most part. Granted at lower gear levels longevity probably needs to be weighted higher.. I gave throughput a slight edge for those that seek a combined weighting because in the end Disc isn't going to need to stack regen stats.

You first argue that a combined score isn't good and then say that if you don't bother doing anything you won't be far off anyway. Not having a lot of control and not having any are different in my book. There are always choices that can be made or why have multiple items for any slot.

#19 Sharajat

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 12:34 AM

I agree with this, the problem is, you select a "role" when you raid. You cannot proclaim to be the "damage mitigator" you are either assigned a group to heal, or a MT... as such, you should gear accordingly. IMO gearing for throughput is very effective if you are doing either of those. In Ulduar I have noticed a substantial increase in the need for mitigation, throughput and crit helps with both of those.


This is so entirely false. Roles are selected based on what your class is best at. Holy Priests are best at raid healing, they heal raids. Holy pallies are best at tank healing, they heal tanks.

At this point we have two classes that are neither. Druids are neither tank healers nor raid healers, and disc priests are neither tank healers nor raid healers. People call druids 'hot healers' but that doesn't even mean anything. The only reason they do that is because they don't raid heal and they don't tank heal.

Fine, if Druids are HoT healers, then Disc priests are damage mitigators.

The way to obtain the theoretical maximum HPS from disc is to bubble the raid and cast penance on the MT off cooldown. This is very close to what I actually do as Disc in raids, and it's very highly effective. Penance>Gheal (25% haste, remember) is an insane burst of healing on a tank.

This makes people live. Making people live is the healing role. This 'tank/raid' stuff is garbage, if it means you're letting people die.

#20 clukstank

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 01:17 AM

OK, first off: I am a LONG time reader, but this is my first time posting on this forum. My main is currently a Holy Paladin (Horde side). Pre-BC my main was a Holy Priest and was my main all the way through T5 content, until my Paladin was geared up enough to take over as my main. My guild has downed Sarth 3D, and all other pre-Ulduar content, and have cleared the first three bosses in Ulduar with NO Discipline priest. My current job is MT healer.

I came here mostly to relearn my priest and after looking at all the main healing priest forums I see that Discipline is almost NEEDED in Ulduar. I also looked at a LOT of priest armories to look at talent builds for my holy spec and realized that MOST of all the priest posting on EJ were discipline. Hence the reason I am here.

NOW to my questions
Coming from a Paladin stand point, when I see a talent like PI it makes me automatically think of Divine Illumination. I understand that Discipline priest do not have a LOT of mana issues (like Palies because of our mana return), but COULD Power Infusion be used in a similar fashion as the Paladin Talent Divine Illumination. What I mean by that is say during Tympanic Tantrums.
As a Paly: First MT has beacon of light on so I do not have to heal him directly, so I hit Divine Illumination and SPAM the hell out of my heals on any/everyone. I lose almost NO mana if any at all.
I am assuming that a Disp priest (usually MT healer) would be spamming PW:S on as many people as possible. Could you us PI to 1) get 20% more SP to increase the amount absorbed by the shield and 2) more importantly make the spell cost Less and there for increase the Return % you would get? Or is mana really not an issue at all here, making PI more of a utility to cast on a DPSer?

Second question: I read a LOT about placing a PW:S on a target and then casting Penance. I am confused unless you’re saying you cast shield AFTER the tank takes damage and then you need to heal him. If the tank has the shield up and is at full health why cast Penance on him right away? I may just not understand the whole timing, can someone clarify please?

Third question is I guess an opinionated question: Do any of you use PS as a kind of bubble? Or do you cast it freely on raid members that are getting beat down? The way I see it, PW:S is a form of bubble you can put on anyone that needs help until a raid healer can get to him. SO PS is either a useless talent point OR it can be used to sort of bubble your self when needed.

Last question (for now) I have not seen anything about Renewal in all the Discipline forums I looked at. Is Renewal really that bad now? Or is Penance just that good. As holy back in the old days, I would love to shield/renew the raid to help out while MT healing (but this was a LONG time ago). All I read is PW:S, Penance, BT, PoH, PoM and quick reactive heals… Is that all there is too it? Besides throwing around PW:S’s around the raid when help is needed and you have time.

Thank you for any help you can provide. My Priest is currently level 71 (Duel spec’ed to Shadow/Holy) but I want to try out Discipline now to get the timing down in some of the lower level instances and work my way up as Disc. I feel like the timing to gear ratio is about 50/50% I have always been able to heal as good as or better then some of the people with a higher gear level due to know the timing of things.




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