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Discipline Healing Compendium v3.1


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#21 gsman20

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 07:00 AM

OK, first off: I am a LONG time reader, but this is my first time posting on this forum. My main is currently a Holy Paladin (Horde side). Pre-BC my main was a Holy Priest and was my main all the way through T5 content, until my Paladin was geared up enough to take over as my main. My guild has downed Sarth 3D, and all other pre-Ulduar content, and have cleared the first three bosses in Ulduar with NO Discipline priest. My current job is MT healer.

I came here mostly to relearn my priest and after looking at all the main healing priest forums I see that Discipline is almost NEEDED in Ulduar. I also looked at a LOT of priest armories to look at talent builds for my holy spec and realized that MOST of all the priest posting on EJ were discipline. Hence the reason I am here.

NOW to my questions
Coming from a Paladin stand point, when I see a talent like PI it makes me automatically think of Divine Illumination. I understand that Discipline priest do not have a LOT of mana issues (like Palies because of our mana return), but COULD Power Infusion be used in a similar fashion as the Paladin Talent Divine Illumination. What I mean by that is say during Tympanic Tantrums.
As a Paly: First MT has beacon of light on so I do not have to heal him directly, so I hit Divine Illumination and SPAM the hell out of my heals on any/everyone. I lose almost NO mana if any at all.
I am assuming that a Disp priest (usually MT healer) would be spamming PW:S on as many people as possible. Could you us PI to 1) get 20% more SP to increase the amount absorbed by the shield and 2) more importantly make the spell cost Less and there for increase the Return % you would get? Or is mana really not an issue at all here, making PI more of a utility to cast on a DPSer?

Second question: I read a LOT about placing a PW:S on a target and then casting Penance. I am confused unless you’re saying you cast shield AFTER the tank takes damage and then you need to heal him. If the tank has the shield up and is at full health why cast Penance on him right away? I may just not understand the whole timing, can someone clarify please?

Third question is I guess an opinionated question: Do any of you use PS as a kind of bubble? Or do you cast it freely on raid members that are getting beat down? The way I see it, PW:S is a form of bubble you can put on anyone that needs help until a raid healer can get to him. SO PS is either a useless talent point OR it can be used to sort of bubble your self when needed.

Last question (for now) I have not seen anything about Renewal in all the Discipline forums I looked at. Is Renewal really that bad now? Or is Penance just that good. As holy back in the old days, I would love to shield/renew the raid to help out while MT healing (but this was a LONG time ago). All I read is PW:S, Penance, BT, PoH, PoM and quick reactive heals… Is that all there is too it? Besides throwing around PW:S’s around the raid when help is needed and you have time.

Thank you for any help you can provide. My Priest is currently level 71 (Duel spec’ed to Shadow/Holy) but I want to try out Discipline now to get the timing down in some of the lower level instances and work my way up as Disc. I feel like the timing to gear ratio is about 50/50% I have always been able to heal as good as or better then some of the people with a higher gear level due to know the timing of things.


I don't understand what you're talking about, to be honest. When PI'ing somebody we don't gain any SP. When we PI ourselves while spamming shields we don't gain anything but 20% less mana cost, as most discs are at the haste cap when Borrowed Time is up.
So taking it yourself while shielding is a bad thing to do.
Next: You don't need to Penance the target you put a PW:S on. So shielding someone that's probably going to take damage soon, then healing someone with BT up with Penance who needs the heal is a nice combo.
When talking about single-target healing, shielding makes sense still because we don't lose the BT buff after casting Penance (BT is only consumed by casts that are not instant and Penance is), so could cast another _very_ fast heal afterwards if needed. Penance on someone at full health after shielding him only makes sense if it's the MT/a tank to prevent Grace from falling off or to stack up DA (also works on overheal since 3.1 and stacks up to 10k), in my opinion.

PS is a lot more powerful than PW:S. AND you can put up both on the same target, since a shield might not be enough. It's an emergency button and never a wasted talent point. Whether you use it on yourself or on someone else is completely dependent on the situation.

Renew is nothing a disc priest would ever use unless he's forced to move and everyone taking damage has a Shield. We almost cannot talent it (besides Twin Disciplines), neither do we need to.
Most healers (non-holy priests/resto druids) don't track hots in their unitframes or just ignore them to make sure the person lives. It cannot proc DAs. The whole spell just doesn't fit into our toolbox, again, in my opinion.

Hope that makes things a little clearer little to you.

Edit: I haven't checked lately, does Penance still benefit from BT or is that fixed? If so, ignore the one line in the post up there.

#22 Observer

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 08:24 AM

People making remarks about how spellpower is so superior and crit is so worthless: what does that mean to you in terms of gear choices?

It seems to me that you can gem everything with , but that's about as far as it goes. Every piece of gear has Stamina, Int, and Spellpower, and some combination of Crit, Haste, mp5, and spirit. Crit you don't like, Haste reaches the soft cap pretty fast with BT up most of the time, and regen becomes less important if you're mostly using PW:S since it is so efficient. So... what DO you care about in an item?

Do you have no preference for those other four stats, as long as it's a spellpower upgrade? Do you favor the one with the highest spellpower, even if it's only a 1-point difference? Do you try to favor the regen-heavy ones so the DPS in your raids can take advantage of the throughput stats that aren't important to you?

#23 TheDoctor

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 02:10 PM

This is so entirely false. Roles are selected based on what your class is best at. Holy Priests are best at raid healing, they heal raids. Holy pallies are best at tank healing, they heal tanks.

At this point we have two classes that are neither. Druids are neither tank healers nor raid healers, and disc priests are neither tank healers nor raid healers. People call druids 'hot healers' but that doesn't even mean anything. The only reason they do that is because they don't raid heal and they don't tank heal.

Fine, if Druids are HoT healers, then Disc priests are damage mitigators.

-snip-

The way to obtain the theoretical maximum HPS from disc is to bubble the raid and cast penance on the MT off cooldown. This is very close to what I actually do as Disc in raids, and it's very highly effective. Penance>Gheal (25% haste, remember) is an insane burst of healing on a tank.

This makes people live. Making people live is the healing role. This 'tank/raid' stuff is garbage, if it means you're letting people die.


Disc priests can be great tank healers... There isn't a fight that a Disc priest can't MT heal that a Holy Paladin could. If there is a Disc Priest and a Holy Paladin in the same raid and only one tank to heal it is probably optimal to have the Paladin on the MT at that point. This is not because the Holy Paladin is a better MT healer but because the Holy Paladin is more limited in other roles while Disc is not as limited.

Disc can easily provide tank/raid mitigation support and healing. That makes Disc very versatile. Keeping the tank/raid alive is the goal, Disc has lots of tools to assist with that ... PW:S is very strong but shouldn't be the only button you push.

The idea of PW:S spamming reminds me of "CoH spam is maximum hps why use anything else" garbage. There are tons of tools in the Disc priest toolbox... PoH > PW:S spam for maximum hps, why don't you do that? The real maximum hps would be something like PW:S->PoH repeat until oom. Is that the best way to play because it is tons of hps?

Putting up some PW:S prior to incoming damage during lull's in the fight is a great idea. It can even be done while being the MT healer, Penance is that good. Popping a PW:S on a slag pot / gripped / napalm'd / etc raid memember is pretty easy considering you can BT'd heal your MT to recover. Working in some PW:S before predictabe raid damage while on the MT is easy enough even PW:S(MT) PoH group in need is fine.

Blizzard has already said that if Disc Priests become one button wonders with PW:S that they will take the bat to our regen even further. They expect us to shield regularly but not at the cost of all our other tools.

Who said anything about letting people die?

Actually just spamming PW:S creates a large window of time where once the shield is consumed the green bar isn't getting any help from you and instead it is left to other healers. This could depending on the other raid healing increase the risk of people dying not drastically reduce it. It is even worse if your shields don't get used because now you are wasting mana/gcds on the non-essential healing targets versus the ones that were actually in need.

The only time I actually think PW:S spam might be a good answer is Mimiron P2 because the raid damage is so high all shields will probably get consumed without fail. Though because the damage is so high you need to recover health at some point and not just mitigate some of the loss.... For Mimiron P2 I do something along the lines of preshield healers and my assigned group before the phase begins, then once in progress I do 2-3 PW:S -> PoH and repeat. I find this is a much more effective approach to dealing with the huge damage income.

#24 Cahrin

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 05:45 PM

The only time I actually think PW:S spam might be a good answer is Mimiron P2 because the raid damage is so high all shields will probably get consumed without fail. Though because the damage is so high you need to recover health at some point and not just mitigate some of the loss.... For Mimiron P2 I do something along the lines of preshield healers and my assigned group before the phase begins, then once in progress I do 2-3 PW:S -> PoH and repeat. I find this is a much more effective approach to dealing with the huge damage income.


Theoretical best would be to PoM and pre-shield during Heat Wave down times and PoH-PW:S until everyone's healed back up. PoM does an absolute ton of healing and it's "good" healing as it's somewhat smart targeted.

Regardless, the point is that using PW:S 90% of the time is seldom the best theoretic output and even more seldom the best way to heal when measuring by number of deaths.

#25 Sharajat

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 05:47 PM

Disc priests can be great tank healers... There isn't a fight that a Disc priest can't MT heal that a Holy Paladin could. If there is a Disc Priest and a Holy Paladin in the same raid and only one tank to heal it is probably optimal to have the Paladin on the MT at that point. This is not because the Holy Paladin is a better MT healer but because the Holy Paladin is more limited in other roles while Disc is not as limited.

Disc can easily provide tank/raid mitigation support and healing. That makes Disc very versatile. Keeping the tank/raid alive is the goal, Disc has lots of tools to assist with that ... PW:S is very strong but shouldn't be the only button you push.

The idea of PW:S spamming reminds me of "CoH spam is maximum hps why use anything else" garbage. There are tons of tools in the Disc priest toolbox... PoH > PW:S spam for maximum hps, why don't you do that? The real maximum hps would be something like PW:S->PoH repeat until oom. Is that the best way to play because it is tons of hps?

Putting up some PW:S prior to incoming damage during lull's in the fight is a great idea. It can even be done while being the MT healer, Penance is that good. Popping a PW:S on a slag pot / gripped / napalm'd / etc raid memember is pretty easy considering you can BT'd heal your MT to recover. Working in some PW:S before predictabe raid damage while on the MT is easy enough even PW:S(MT) PoH group in need is fine.

Blizzard has already said that if Disc Priests become one button wonders with PW:S that they will take the bat to our regen even further. They expect us to shield regularly but not at the cost of all our other tools.

Who said anything about letting people die?

Actually just spamming PW:S creates a large window of time where once the shield is consumed the green bar isn't getting any help from you and instead it is left to other healers. This could depending on the other raid healing increase the risk of people dying not drastically reduce it. It is even worse if your shields don't get used because now you are wasting mana/gcds on the non-essential healing targets versus the ones that were actually in need.

The only time I actually think PW:S spam might be a good answer is Mimiron P2 because the raid damage is so high all shields will probably get consumed without fail. Though because the damage is so high you need to recover health at some point and not just mitigate some of the loss.... For Mimiron P2 I do something along the lines of preshield healers and my assigned group before the phase begins, then once in progress I do 2-3 PW:S -> PoH and repeat. I find this is a much more effective approach to dealing with the huge damage income.


First, Disc doesn't have the sustained healing power of a Holy Pally. Yes, factored in mitigation. Over a sustained period of time (i.e. longer than a few second ability), Holy Pallies are many thousand HPS ahead of Disc's combined HPS/Mitigation.

However, disc is much better at mitigating raid damage than a holy pally ever could be. Yes, I frequently use PoH (hasted) as disc. Yes, I bubble people who need a heal quick, and that bubble saves lives. My bubble absorbs about 7k damage, and heals the target as well. Instantly. That's almost as good as a Nature's Swiftness into Healing Touch, and I didn't blow any cooldowns to do it.

Given these two facts, why would you cripple a class by asking it to perform a role that another class performs better? It's like asking an elemental shaman to kite some adds when you have a hunter in the raid.

Disc healing is somewhat bursty, and overall lower than a holy pally's. On the other hand, with the removal of IoL haste, a holy pally has limited burst healing capacity to handle big hits.

Why WOULDN'T you assign a holy pally to healing the tank, and let the disc priest do his thing? And why WOULDN'T the disc priest's thing be to supplement raid healing by mitigating incoming predictable damage bursts, saving people who are near death with fast bursts of healing, and supplementing tank healing with fast bursts of healing as required (that outheal a Holy pally, for a few seconds (Shield>Penance>G. Heal is far higher HPS than a pally)?

Saying you ain't a tank healer and you ain't a raid healer is silly. You're a 'keeping people alive' healer. Be the people tanks, DPS, or other healers.

Finally, if I PW:S someone who took a huge hit, then they don't take another hit for 30 seconds, I don't consider the shield wasted compared to a flash heal on them. Why? Imagine that you could guarantee, 100% that a person wouldn't be hit for 30 seconds. Would you heal them in a raid? Probably not. At some point a Chain Heal jump, WG heal, CoH heal, splash from Holy Light, or something else is going to bring them up to full without particularly impacting anything else. Yet I'd bet dollars to donuts that at that when someone takes an 11k hit, there's healers in your raid immediately dumping heals on him. And you'd consider this a good thing.

Given all of this, why, why, why would you shackle the disc priest to the tank when their best role is to keep people alive? It's a weird niche, but Disc priests have, bar none, the best ability of any healer in the entire game to keep people alive in "OH @#$!" situations. Remember, even if they're bubbling the raid, the GCD on bubble is 1 second. So they're never, ever, ever more than 1 second away from dropping a shield then a penance then a nice big heal on the tank. Ever. Mostly you're about half a second away.


P.S. Blizzard might nerf bubble in the future. Or they might give disc priests power word barrier. Or they might remove the cooldown on penance. Or they might make shields scale with crit instead of pure spellpower (which is something I consider necessary, moving forward, but that's an aside). They might make Grace a buff that makes Disc equal holy pallies and then nerf the bubble spam down. They could do absolutely anything. They might not like Disc's role at all, they might change them to fit their vision for the class. I don't particularly care. I'm playing the game they made, not the game that they might make in the future at some point.

#26 clukstank

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 07:30 PM

I don't understand what you're talking about, to be honest. When PI'ing somebody we don't gain any SP. When we PI ourselves while spamming shields we don't gain anything but 20% less mana cost, as most discs are at the haste cap when Borrowed Time is up.
So taking it yourself while shielding is a bad thing to do.
Next: You don't need to Penance the target you put a PW:S on. So shielding someone that's probably going to take damage soon, then healing someone with BT up with Penance who needs the heal is a nice combo.
When talking about single-target healing, shielding makes sense still because we don't lose the BT buff after casting Penance (BT is only consumed by casts that are not instant and Penance is), so could cast another _very_ fast heal afterwards if needed. Penance on someone at full health after shielding him only makes sense if it's the MT/a tank to prevent Grace from falling off or to stack up DA (also works on overheal since 3.1 and stacks up to 10k), in my opinion.

PS is a lot more powerful than PW:S. AND you can put up both on the same target, since a shield might not be enough. It's an emergency button and never a wasted talent point. Whether you use it on yourself or on someone else is completely dependent on the situation.

Renew is nothing a disc priest would ever use unless he's forced to move and everyone taking damage has a Shield. We almost cannot talent it (besides Twin Disciplines), neither do we need to.
Most healers (non-holy priests/resto druids) don't track hots in their unitframes or just ignore them to make sure the person lives. It cannot proc DAs. The whole spell just doesn't fit into our toolbox, again, in my opinion.

Hope that makes things a little clearer little to you.

Edit: I haven't checked lately, does Penance still benefit from BT or is that fixed? If so, ignore the one line in the post up there.


First thank you! You cleared up a LOT of stuff for me.

What I was trying to get at as far as PI goes is (and this only goes for times when you may have a mana problems):
When a PW:S expires you get mana back based on your mana pool and other factors. All-in-all the % of mana returned to the cost of PW:S is X
IF PW:S cost 20% less; that would not change the mana return, BUT it will change the % of mana returned or X

(for Simplicity I know the numbers are way off)
Say PW:S cost 1000 mana normally. Let's say you get 900 mana returned. So the cost of the shield is ultimately 100 mana. IF you are spamming PW:S on 10 party members, you just spent a total of 1000 mana (after all the returns).

MY QUESTION:
Now if you have PI up in the same situation the cost Per PW:S is now 800, you still get 900 mana back per shield, so the new cost is (neg) -100 mana per cast. If you spam on 10 people; instead of paying 1000 mana you get returned 1000 mana.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE let me know if I am WAY off about this. This is how DI works for palies: we use it, and all spells cost 50% less mana. We get 60% of all critical heal mana back, so on a crit we Gain 10% of the mana cost of that heal.

#27 Jazzer

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 07:33 PM

Right now, I find spellpower to be the single biggest factor in the amount of healing/damage prevention I can do. However, it really depends on the situation.


There are times when I'm doing nothing but spamming bubble every gcd (which hits the 1s cap VERY easily with a minimal amount of gearing for haste) along with using mending on cooldown and penance when it's necessary on someone who took a chunk of damage. In this case, both crit and haste do next to nothing to help our effectiveness. Regen stats are pretty worthless too as there's not been a situation where I could run out of mana spamming my shields (this will probably be something they change in the future).

As a note, doing nothing but shield spam assuming each shield gets used up is between 6-7k hp/sec in damage prevention and is entirely possible to do at this point and this also ignores the shield glyph heal. It does take 25 seconds to cover the entire raid, but you also have other healers helping heal the damage that has been done already. This is the method I used for our Freya kill, and found it very effective.

---

If I'm taking the role of healing a tank, my priorities shift to keeping penance and mending on cooldown and flashing in between. Shields will be tossed in the raid as necessary, but penance/flash I will try to keep from using on anyone but the tank so grace doesn't drop. I'm able to keep an inspiration uptime of at least 90% and if my mana drops at all, I have a fiend to top it off which I really haven't had to use so far (haven't done Mimiron, Vezax, or Yogg yet).

In this situation, I tend to gear for crit over haste which only solidifies my uptime of inspiration, and with DA stacking now, there's no real negative side to having too much crit. I don't completely ignore haste, but 6% from talents, 8% from gear, 5% from WoA totem, and 3% from Ret aura/Boomkin puts me at 22% which I find to be more than enough.

So personally, I can't see myself stacking any more haste on my gear when healing as disc in pretty much any case. I see the value in it, though I don't see much of a point to get past the levels I'm currently at. I do wish I had a bit more haste though for when I'm healing as holy.



Edit: As a sidenote, I am, and always have socketed for pure spellpower over anything else. Every piece of gear we have has stam/int/spellpower. We get to choose between mp5/spirit and haste/crit for each piece, so when I say I gear for spellpower I mean that's the gems I choose to use. When deciding between crit/haste I will pick crit over haste, but if there's a haste piece that has significantly more spellpower, I'll get the haste piece. Generally anyway.

#28 TheDoctor

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 07:54 PM

First, Disc doesn't have the sustained healing power of a Holy Pally. Yes, factored in mitigation. Over a sustained period of time (i.e. longer than a few second ability), Holy Pallies are many thousand HPS ahead of Disc's combined HPS/Mitigation.

However, disc is much better at mitigating raid damage than a holy pally ever could be. Yes, I frequently use PoH (hasted) as disc. Yes, I bubble people who need a heal quick, and that bubble saves lives. My bubble absorbs about 7k damage, and heals the target as well. Instantly. That's almost as good as a Nature's Swiftness into Healing Touch, and I didn't blow any cooldowns to do it.

Given these two facts, why would you cripple a class by asking it to perform a role that another class performs better? It's like asking an elemental shaman to kite some adds when you have a hunter in the raid.

-snip-

Why WOULDN'T you assign a holy pally to healing the tank, and let the disc priest do his thing? And why WOULDN'T the disc priest's thing be to supplement raid healing by mitigating incoming predictable damage bursts, saving people who are near death with fast bursts of healing, and supplementing tank healing with fast bursts of healing as required (that outheal a Holy pally, for a few seconds (Shield>Penance>G. Heal is far higher HPS than a pally)?

Saying you ain't a tank healer and you ain't a raid healer is silly. You're a 'keeping people alive' healer. Be the people tanks, DPS, or other healers.

-snip-


Many thousands ahead in theory and on paper numbers.. In practice that high value isn't necessary and doesn't make them the "absolute best must have to raid tank healer". Disc is ahead of everyone else for the role of healing a tank and in pratice not behind Holy Paladins by much if anything.

I think for the most part what you are saying and what I am saying agree. The point I don't think you are following is that Disc can be...
1. MT Healer (providing some raid support)
2. What you describe as all raid support, niche.
3. Some mixed variation of 1 & 2.

And without a pally you should have whom tank heal instead so that you can do what you propose? That would be putting at best the 3rd best tank healer on the job, because the Disc priest wants to play save everyone?

All healers are there to keep people alive. To quote you said "At this point we have two classes that are neither. Druids are neither tank healers nor raid healers, and disc priests are neither tank healers nor raid healers. People call druids 'hot healers' but that doesn't even mean anything. The only reason they do that is because they don't raid heal and they don't tank heal."

I highlighted the important part.. Which is false. Disc can be a tank healer quite effectively. Disc can also support raid healing quite effectively. It can even do both simultaneously based on gear & skill.

It is fairly clear that PW:S is THE option to use on the raid if you are helping out or even supporting the raid as a primary role. Followed up with fast reactive heals Penance/BT'd anything.

Have you even tried MT/OT healing? You talk like you are crippled doing it. When in reality you have plenty of time to do what you say and keep up a tank. Ignis is about the highest sustained damage to the raid and tank over the course of an entire fight. Even on this fight I find it easy to keep up the MT and toss around sufficient PW:S, PoM, and PoH to improve raid survivability. Penance is that good, period... Disc can run with near a 1 sec heal spacing for as long as necessary.


Can Disc MT heal effectively in Ulduar? Absolutely. Even more important they can do this can provide considerable support to the raid simultaneously. In most fights I find that my Healing + Mitigation is equal to or greater than the majority of the "raid healers", while tank healing, because there are plenty of opportunities to toss PW:S around.

Can Disc reduce raid damage a significant amount and support in health recovery? Absolutely. Though Disc is slighly weaker at the second part. During high raid damage situations Disc can easily run over 5k effective healing + shielding.

Is Disc the best reactive healer in the game right now? Probably.

Is Disc some "new" type of healer that doesn't fill any currently understood healing role? NO. Disc is a different type of healer that deals heavily in mitigation... By doing that Disc has the ability to fulfill the roles of Tank Healer and Raid Healer individually or simultaneously with a synergy well beyond other class/specs.

#29 Sharajat

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 08:07 PM

I think I see what you're saying. You're right in that I have never seen the tank healing capacities of Disc in full force because we run with at least one holy pally at all times. In addition, our holy pallies are very good players.

I'm merely proposing an alternate role for disc that it is quite strong in. I've never seen disc's full tank healing capacity in action because we were on Mimiron before our server discovered the Penance Glyph. We'll see in the coming months how it evolves, but I've seen first hand what disc can do in a raid healing role, and it's quite, quite strong - and compliments holy pallies exceptionally well. Since I think most guilds will be running with a holy pally, I suggest strongly that disc priests master that role as well as tank healing.

What I disagree with is that disc is not a new type of healer. Until Discipline, the only proactive healing you could do was HoTs and Prayer of Mending (okay, and SS, but they nerfed that). Everyone remembers HoT casting before vortexes, etc. What disc can do there is provide healing for events that haven't occured yet.

Until Discipline, the longest you had to think ahead was the cast time of your longest heal, so you could be casting before the damage lands. With discipline you can plan for events that are 20 seconds away. Moreover, the class plays suboptimally if you're NOT planning for events 20 seconds in the future. I'm finding it very different from Holy Priest, where my 'preparation' was all mental (developing a plan for the event). With discipline, I need to slot the shield spam into my cast order without endangering the tank.

Perhaps this is not new, perhaps if I played druids enough I would have a better grip on how to do this. Certainly their HoTs seem to fill a similar (though not identical) purpose. But it is very new for any priest.

In conclusion, I'd just like to say that I think the roles of tank/raid healer is mostly dead. At the moment I see one 'pure' tank healer (although pallies can be pretty effective on Raid, they're not really optimized for it) and one 'pure' raid healer (though I think Serendipity was theoretically supposed to give Holy Priests something, but it failed rather spectacularly, even with the bug). Shaman can lay heavy bursts on the tank and support with earthshield, druids can tank and raid at the same time, and so can discipline.

#30 Avellina

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 08:09 PM

Say PW:S cost 1000 mana normally. Let's say you get 900 mana returned. So the cost of the shield is ultimately 100 mana. IF you are spamming PW:S on 10 party members, you just spent a total of 1000 mana (after all the returns).

Now if you have PI up in the same situation the cost Per PW:S is now 800, you still get 900 mana back per shield, so the new cost is (neg) -100 mana per cast. If you spam on 10 people; instead of paying 1000 mana you get returned 1000 mana.

To answer your question, Rapture isn't a refund as a percentage of what you spent on PW: Shield, it is a constant 2.5% of your total mana pool, meaning it is unaffected by how much you spent on the spell itself. Even if it were free (via Inner Focus), you would still gain the same amount of mana as if it were spent at full cost.

#31 TheDoctor

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 08:34 PM

I think I see what you're saying. You're right in that I have never seen the tank healing capacities of Disc in full force because we run with at least one holy pally at all times. In addition, our holy pallies are very good players.

I'm merely proposing an alternate role for disc that it is quite strong in. I've never seen disc's full tank healing capacity in action because we were on Mimiron before our server discovered the Penance Glyph. We'll see in the coming months how it evolves, but I've seen first hand what disc can do in a raid healing role, and it's quite, quite strong - and compliments holy pallies exceptionally well. Since I think most guilds will be running with a holy pally, I suggest strongly that disc priests master that role as well as tank healing.

What I disagree with is that disc is not a new type of healer. Until Discipline, the only proactive healing you could do was HoTs and Prayer of Mending (okay, and SS, but they nerfed that). Everyone remembers HoT casting before vortexes, etc. What disc can do there is provide healing for events that haven't occured yet.

Until Discipline, the longest you had to think ahead was the cast time of your longest heal, so you could be casting before the damage lands. With discipline you can plan for events that are 20 seconds away. Moreover, the class plays suboptimally if you're NOT planning for events 20 seconds in the future. I'm finding it very different from Holy Priest, where my 'preparation' was all mental (developing a plan for the event). With discipline, I need to slot the shield spam into my cast order without endangering the tank.

Perhaps this is not new, perhaps if I played druids enough I would have a better grip on how to do this. Certainly their HoTs seem to fill a similar (though not identical) purpose. But it is very new for any priest.

In conclusion, I'd just like to say that I think the roles of tank/raid healer is mostly dead. At the moment I see one 'pure' tank healer (although pallies can be pretty effective on Raid, they're not really optimized for it) and one 'pure' raid healer (though I think Serendipity was theoretically supposed to give Holy Priests something, but it failed rather spectacularly, even with the bug). Shaman can lay heavy bursts on the tank and support with earthshield, druids can tank and raid at the same time, and so can discipline.


Disc is new in that it deals in mitigation. I do agree with most everything you are saying here..

The most important part is that to be a great Discipline healer means that you have to know what is coming so you can prep for it and be incredibly capable of reacting to things simultaneously.


What I was trying to get at as far as PI goes is (and this only goes for times when you may have a mana problems):
When a PW:S expires you get mana back based on your mana pool and other factors. All-in-all the % of mana returned to the cost of PW:S is X
IF PW:S cost 20% less; that would not change the mana return, BUT it will change the % of mana returned or X

(for Simplicity I know the numbers are way off)
Say PW:S cost 1000 mana normally. Let's say you get 900 mana returned. So the cost of the shield is ultimately 100 mana. IF you are spamming PW:S on 10 party members, you just spent a total of 1000 mana (after all the returns).

MY QUESTION:
Now if you have PI up in the same situation the cost Per PW:S is now 800, you still get 900 mana back per shield, so the new cost is (neg) -100 mana per cast. If you spam on 10 people; instead of paying 1000 mana you get returned 1000 mana.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE let me know if I am WAY off about this. This is how DI works for palies: we use it, and all spells cost 50% less mana. We get 60% of all critical heal mana back, so on a crit we Gain 10% of the mana cost of that heal.


Couple of issues here with what you are talking about ... First Rapture can only proc once every 12 seconds. So During the period of the buff you would maybe get 2 procs from reduced cost shields. IF and this is a really big if you put up shields during the 20 seconds that didn't get consumed until late enough to proc the buff the most you could get is (20+30) / 12 = 4 shields... This requires that the each shield is instantly consumed once the CD is up and not before with a maximum leeway of 2 seconds total. It is likely that you would only see 3 returns at best.

The other thing is PW:S that procs Rapture for just about any Disc priest is gong to regen some mana and at the least the shield is virtually free. Moreso, really all you are doing is saving on the PW:S cast not creating more regen so the most you can benefit is exactly 20% of the mana spent. I find that usually PI is better spent on a dps then myself or another healer, with one exception (Vezax).

#32 Tweaksys

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 10:37 PM

Since someone brought up the gear discussion I made out a list of what I felt was BiS as of what had been found at the end of week one and ptr. This is what I currently plan to shoot for until better items end up being found down the line.

Weapon- - Hodir 25 Hard OR - 25 Yogg Saron + - 25 Kologarn
Trinket (Not sure here, lots of interchangeability dependent on encounter)- - Mimiron 25 AND 10 man Razor AND - 10 man Kolo AND - Thorim 25
Ring- - 25 Ignis AND 25 KT (Yes, it is still the best atm. If naxx stops completely I will try to pug it or substitute - 25 Flame Levi)
Head- - Vendors or 25 Thorim
Neck - - Thorim 10 Hard Mode
Cloak - - Sarth 25 (Yes again, this remains a BiS[though debatable as a nice 230+ has been found but with hit] and - 25 Ulduar Trash Might be the next best alternative)
Wand - - Vezax 25
Chest - - 25 Hodir
Feet - - Leviathan 25 Hard
Hands - - Vezax 25 Hard
Legs - - 25 Freya
Shoulders - - 25 Yogg Saron
Wasit - - Tailoring (Fortunately its BoE so any guild either side could get it but it is so far ahead of second placed belt atm it is truly best to wait for a guild to get it imo and upgrade other slots.)
Wrist - - Razorscale 25 or - Sartharion

#33 moowalk

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 11:36 PM

It looks like the days of arena weapons being comparable or superior to easily obtainable raid drops are back.

I'd rate the 2200 rating mageblade ahead of soulscribe - http://static.mmo-ch...on6_9806_23.jpg

#34 clukstank

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 06:24 AM

Couple of issues here with what you are talking about ... First Rapture can only proc once every 12 seconds. So During the period of the buff you would maybe get 2 procs from reduced cost shields. IF and this is a really big if you put up shields during the 20 seconds that didn't get consumed until late enough to proc the buff the most you could get is (20+30) / 12 = 4 shields... This requires that the each shield is instantly consumed once the CD is up and not before with a maximum leeway of 2 seconds total. It is likely that you would only see 3 returns at best.

The other thing is PW:S that procs Rapture for just about any Disc priest is gong to regen some mana and at the least the shield is virtually free. Moreso, really all you are doing is saving on the PW:S cast not creating more regen so the most you can benefit is exactly 20% of the mana spent. I find that usually PI is better spent on a dps then myself or another healer, with one exception (Vezax).


Great! Thank you very much, that is exactly what I was trying to figure out. So there is not a useful way of getting mana back by using PI. PI should be used as a buff on DPS class and Always be on CD. I was not sure about how Rapture worked. Thank you all. I am going to Spec Disc right now (since bliz was nice enought to give us all our points back with the update today :) ).

#35 Sharajat

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 06:59 AM

Great! Thank you very much, that is exactly what I was trying to figure out. So there is not a useful way of getting mana back by using PI. PI should be used as a buff on DPS class and Always be on CD. I was not sure about how Rapture worked. Thank you all. I am going to Spec Disc right now (since bliz was nice enought to give us all our points back with the update today :) ).

Always use it on DPS is a theory. I've dropped it on our holy paladin sometimes. If you want to see something funny, drop an extra 20% haste on Holy Light. He is pretty kitted out in haste gear anyway, so it's like... 1.2 second holy lights. Mere mortals are not supposed to wield that sort of power (though it takes a very specific problem for 1.2 second holy lights to be the solution).

#36 Elimbras

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 12:42 PM

Where I find Disc increadibly strong is when assisting the tank healer, and the raid healers, depending on what's needed.

Disc is the best reactive healer in the game, and has good anticipative mitigation also. This makes it what I could call a "O-Shit" healer. When there are big spikes expected on the tank, or when a fixed number of healer is not "enough" to cover the tank withouth too much overheal, Disc is the best choice to swap between tank (when needed) and raid (when tank is OK), because we don't need to precast to have an quick-landing big heal. Just use POM / PW:S on the raid, and be ready to penance / GH the tank when need is. No other healer can swap at will so easily.

I don't say that Disc is not good for tank healer. It's a really good tank healer, as strong as Paladins I would say (maybee less hps, but more burst reaction, which is as important as hps). It is "acceptable" raid healers, usely inferior to real raid healers (except on a few fights, where raid healing is in fact equivalent to random "tank healing"), but not crippled when doing so. But where I find it being unique is the "mixed" role I descibed.

#37 Promethia

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 07:47 PM

You first argue that a combined score isn't good and then say that if you don't bother doing anything you won't be far off anyway. Not having a lot of control and not having any are different in my book. There are always choices that can be made or why have multiple items for any slot.


To be more clear, I argue that a combined score can mislead some player into thinking they need more throughput or mana/regen than they do but that it does not matter a whole lot because even if you don't bother doing anything, you won't be far off. There is nothing contradictory there.

Of course you have some control, and it is best to think about what you need and gear appropriately. However, players can get carried away with "stacking" stats, which may do more harm than good. For instance, a gearset which stacks only crit or haste will generally not perform as well as a same ilvl gearset with a mix of crit and haste. That is a mathematical consequence of their effects being multiplicative.

Many players don't think that way but instead want to know "which is better?" and then proceed to stack that stat without end under the misguided understanding that the stat is always better in any circumstance. That would be an example of "a little knowledge is a bad thing". They would have been better off knowing nothing and doing nothing since that would have resulted in a better mix a stats.

I know that many players love optimizing their gear stats, and they certainly won't stop doing that because of anything I say. However, I'm just not convinced it matters much. Just don't do anything totally crazy with your gear, and you'll be fine.

Could you us PI to 1) get 20% more SP to increase the amount absorbed by the shield and 2) more importantly make the spell cost Less and there for increase the Return % you would get? Or is mana really not an issue at all here, making PI more of a utility to cast on a DPSer?

Second question: I read a LOT about placing a PW:S on a target and then casting Penance. I am confused unless you’re saying you cast shield AFTER the tank takes damage and then you need to heal him. If the tank has the shield up and is at full health why cast Penance on him right away? I may just not understand the whole timing, can someone clarify please?

Third question is I guess an opinionated question: Do any of you use PS as a kind of bubble? Or do you cast it freely on raid members that are getting beat down? The way I see it, PW:S is a form of bubble you can put on anyone that needs help until a raid healer can get to him. SO PS is either a useless talent point OR it can be used to sort of bubble your self when needed.


1. I use PI for both the reasons you cite: output and/or mana. I cast it more on others, but it can be for either reason. The haste does not stack with bloodlust, so I usually don't do it then unless the mana benefit is needed.

2, I'm guessing the context for shield+penance talk is when the tank (or whatever) has taken a spike of damage. The shield provides instant protection (buying you a little time), and you get a haste buff which penance does not consume. So it's a good combo right after spike damage. I commonly do shield+penance after Maexxna's webspray for instance.

3. I almost always cast PS on the tank or myself. It is sometimes a wipe-preventer when used on the tank especially, and so yes, I think that means I use it as a kind of bubble. On most dps, it won't save them in many cases, and they are usually not as crucial either, so I tend to save it for the tank or healers almost exclusively... Maybe others are different, though.

#38 dfscott

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 11:20 PM

VII. Spreadsheet
<Link to be added shortly>


So, Doc: any idea how "shortly" translates to conventional measures of time?

#39 TheDoctor

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 01:34 PM

So, Doc: any idea how "shortly" translates to conventional measures of time?


I have not finished making it other user friendly. It should be ready and posted Friday or at the latest Saturday.

#40 clukstank

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 06:05 PM

1. I use PI for both the reasons you cite: output and/or mana. I cast it more on others, but it can be for either reason. The haste does not stack with bloodlust, so I usually don't do it then unless the mana benefit is needed.

2, I'm guessing the context for shield+penance talk is when the tank (or whatever) has taken a spike of damage. The shield provides instant protection (buying you a little time), and you get a haste buff which penance does not consume. So it's a good combo right after spike damage. I commonly do shield+penance after Maexxna's webspray for instance.

3. I almost always cast PS on the tank or myself. It is sometimes a wipe-preventer when used on the tank especially, and so yes, I think that means I use it as a kind of bubble. On most dps, it won't save them in many cases, and they are usually not as crucial either, so I tend to save it for the tank or healers almost exclusively... Maybe others are different, though.


Thank you for that information. As far as using PS on a Tank, would the 5% reduction in threat be an issue? I am not sure how the mechanics works with that.

Also I went Disp for the first time ever yesterday and I loved it. At level 71, with a 71 DK tank, and a few other under leveled member, we were able to complete a AN run with no wipes. None of us were even high enough to get the quests yet... I was VERY impressed with the spec.

I will continue to try and soak up as much information from you guys as possible :)!

Clukdoc, 72 Troll Disp. Priest
Windrunner




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