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#21 subscience

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 10:18 PM

How are you limited by global cooldown when you can use HS to dump rage rather effectively?

Does HS trigger global cooldown? I can't remember off the top of my head. :unsure:

Hm. Maybe I'm just a bad tank, but given that a mob has 5 Sunders, Demoralizing Shout, and Thunderclap applied, I cycle through Revenge -> Shield Block while queueing up HS and refreshing Sunder and a lot of the times I have excess Rage left.

For what it's worth, my tanking gear is awful though. 340ish Defense, 7k AR.

#22 Hamlet

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 10:22 PM

See, here's the situation I'm in. An incredibly well-geared tank is leaving the game for a while. He entrusted me his account for an indefinite length of time. We're hurting for tanks at the moment as it is, and, while obviously rebuilding a core is a higher priority, this guy will be pulled out in a pinch when we need a really big gun to help with a boss. That's the only thing this character is going to be doing. I'm trying to decide how to spec him.

He has full Wrath, Spineshatter, Aegis of the Blood God, etc. As far as I know, he certainly has no problem dumping any Rage he gets with the Spineshatter.

Here's my first thought, put together pretty quickly:
http://www.worldofwa...250110500000000

He has exactly 440 defense with 5/5 Anticipation, incidentally.

Big question at the moment is whether AM is really worth it, especially compared to Improved Sunder (there is something I kind of like about 5/5 TM as well).

Thoughts?

#23 subscience

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 10:24 PM

^ Your link is the link I posted earlier. :D


Edit- I put a point into AM in my spec since it's a very good bang-for-the-buck talent.

#24 Hamlet

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 10:25 PM

Does HS trigger global cooldown? I can't remember off the top of my head. :unsure:

Hm. Maybe I'm just a bad tank, but given that a mob has 5 Sunders, Demoralizing Shout, and Thunderclap applied, I cycle through Revenge -> Shield Block while queueing up HS and refreshing Sunder and a lot of the times I have excess Rage left.

For what it's worth, my tanking gear is awful though. 340ish Defense, 7k AR.

HS is tied only to your auto-attack cycle.

Shield Slam, Shield Bash, and Revenge all give better hate/rage than Sunder. Using those every cooldown is the first expenditure of rage. Filling in the "gaps" in your global with Sunder is the second. Dumping into HS is the third. Putting on a faster weapon is the fourth.

#25 moz

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 10:25 PM

I would take AM and forget improved sunder, but that's just me (I would take improved HS though). Keep in mind I'm speaking purely from what I feel is useful in tanking current high-end content with appropriate gear (i.e. no improved revenge for example).

As a side note, with the gear you mentioned -- I'd drop anticipation quite honestly, points are better spent elsewhere.

#26 subscience

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 10:27 PM

Hm. Okay. I should incorporate Shield Bash in more (don't have Shield Slam).

And I just recently started using a 1.8s tanking weapon and dumping HS was a lot easier last night, but I still found I had excess Rage on Timmy the Cruel. On the other hand, I took 3 crits in a row...

#27 Hamlet

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 10:28 PM

I would take AM and forget improved sunder, but that's just me (I would take improved HS though). Keep in mind I'm speaking purely from what I feel is useful in tanking current high-end content with appropriate gear (i.e. no improved revenge for example).

Where are you getting the points for Imp. HS?

#28 moz

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 10:29 PM

I would take AM and forget improved sunder, but that's just me (I would take improved HS though). Keep in mind I'm speaking purely from what I feel is useful in tanking current high-end content with appropriate gear (i.e. no improved revenge for example).

Where are you getting the points for Imp. HS?

I wasn't specifically talking about his allocation of points, merely that I would spend 3 points in improved HS before spending it on improved sunder.

#29 Hamlet

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 10:32 PM

Hm. Okay. I should incorporate Shield Bash in more (don't have Shield Slam).

I'm sure a more experienced thank than me could tell you how the threat from MS stacks up. I would guess it's quite worth using in place of SS, if that's what you have.

#30 subscience

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 10:35 PM

I wasn't specifically talking about his allocation of points, merely that I would spend 3 points in improved HS before spending it on improved sunder.

Good point since HS interrupts Rage generation done by damage dealt while Sunder doesn't. Or, is there another reason?

#31 Hamlet

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 10:36 PM

Good point since HS interrupts Rage generation done by damage dealt while Sunder doesn't. Or, is there another reason?

Since both knock 3 points off a 15-point ability, I would assume you just choose based on which ability you think you're using more often.

#32 subscience

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 10:44 PM

Since both knock 3 points off a 15-point ability, I would assume you just choose based on which ability you think you're using more often.

Well, I meant to say that Sunder Armor costs precisely 15 Rage. Heroic Strike costs 15 Rage plus the Rage you could have gotten on the next hit (since HS hits do not generate Rage like auto-attack).

#33 Hamlet

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 10:45 PM

Well, I meant to say that Sunder Armor costs precisely 15 Rage. Heroic Strike costs 15 Rage plus the Rage you could have gotten on the next hit (since HS hits do not generate Rage like auto-attack).

Right, but I'm pretty sure this is irrelevant. Each talent saves 3 Rage every time you use the ability.

#34 subscience

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 10:48 PM

Right, but I'm pretty sure this is irrelevant. Each talent saves 3 Rage every time you use the ability.

Oh, haha. Dur. Sorry, it's Friday and my brain shut off like an hour ago.

I'd assume in a raid setting that HS might be used more often, but Moz is obviously better qualified to answer that question for you.

#35 moz

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 10:59 PM

Ok, well

- to my knowledge, there is no extra threat generated by MS other than that afforded by the damage (which is incidentally ~4 points of threat per point of damage in defensive w/ defiance according to tests). Also, since you mentioned shield slam -- it's a hell of a lot more effective a rage dump than MS.

- HS is preferred in a raid setting (at least by me), and it's something that I get a lot more utility out of as oppose to sunder. A lot of the time we get off-tanks/other warriors to keep sunder maxed and I don't usually bother with it for the most part. I guess I should mention that I use a 1.9 speed weapon so that factors in somewhat.

As a final note, in most fights if you have excess rage you are simply not doing enough. Every one of your chosen abilities will be on cooldown and your swings are HS's -- of course this is very dependent on the type of mob you are tanking, its abilities and how much rage you are generating. Also, after a while you'll get a feel for how your DPS operates and adjust what you do at various points in an encounter. I mentioned weapon speed, but if you are doing all this and you still have a problem with excess rage, you can look into an faster weapon. Incidentally all this fun started with warriors considering daggers in the days of untauntable Firemaw. One thing about BWL is it forced tanks to generate more threat than they ever had to before, and do so more efficiently -- I think AQ will go away from that again, but it was certainly a nice change from MC.

#36 Hamlet

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 10:59 PM

Ok, I just noticed I had the wrong link pasted above.

Here's what I'm looking at now:
http://www.worldofwa...250110500220151

#37 moz

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 11:04 PM

Looking ahead from BWL to AQ, if you are going to spec that deep in the tree I'd take the 2 points in anticipation, 2 points in imp. shield wall and put it in iron will. Just a thought.

#38 Hamlet

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 11:07 PM

Looking ahead from BWL to AQ, I'd take the 2 points in anticipation, 2 points in imp. shield wall and put it in iron will. Just a thought.

Hmm, that's interesting. I might just go with it, since I don't have a better feel than you until I've been playing him a bit more (also, I was never in AQ40 on Test).

#39 Hamlet

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 12:30 AM

What's the rationale behind Defiance being worth less once you have good gear?

I mean, obviously if you're hitting 440 without it, it's worthless, but that's a pretty extreme state of gear. Otherwise, isn't is valuable to try to squeeze out those last bits of crit chance?

#40 Praetorian

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 12:36 AM

You mean Anticipation?

Yeah, Anticipation stays every bit as good. The problem is that the content changes.

MC bosses are almost all physical-based, and melee crits are a major threat to a new tank there. You really need more +def.

In BWL, on the other hand, it's mostly elemental attacks that are the source of the burst damage. Crits are basically a nonfactor -- most burst deaths involve a shadow flame or similar attack, and anticipation doesn't help at all there. When learning BWL, loss of aggro is much more likely to cause wipes than crits, so there's a tendency to favor defiance over anticipation.




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