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#41 Hamlet

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 12:41 AM

You mean Anticipation?

Yeah, Anticipation stays every bit as good. The problem is that the content changes.

MC bosses are almost all physical-based, and melee crits are a major threat to a new tank there. You really need more +def.

In BWL, on the other hand, it's mostly elemental attacks that are the source of the burst damage. Crits are basically a nonfactor -- most burst deaths involve a shadow flame or similar attack, and anticipation doesn't help at all there. When learning BWL, loss of aggro is much more likely to cause wipes than crits, so there's a tendency to favor defiance over anticipation.

Yeah, I meant Anticipation. There's no doubt Defiance is important.

I see what you mean. Outside of the rare possibility of a bad crit on Broodlord, running BWL with 420-430 defense isn't some kind of major issue.

#42 Praetorian

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 12:54 AM

Yeah, if anything, BWL leads some warriors to nab Last Stand if they're looking to drop a couple more points into protection.

Being able to pop Last Stand during a Nef warrior yell, or when Chromaggus breaths Acid below 20%, is really, really helpful.

I remember a post made by Itzlegend back on the Conquest boards in the early days of MC, pointing out that most warriors were foolish to focus on stamina over armor and defense. His point was simple: If you have enough hp that you aren't going to get two-shotted by a bad burst, then you want as much mitigation as possible to spare healer mana.

That point still holds in BWL, except that the "safe" level of hp has gone way, way up. I've seen Broodlord Blast Wave/MS within the span of one second. Nef can follow up a 6k+ Shadow Flame with a 3k+ crushing during a warrior yell.

So, for the time being in BWL, hp is king. We'll probably see that pendulum swing back the other way soon, I don't doubt.

#43 Hamlet

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 01:05 AM

I remember a post made by Itzlegend back on the Conquest boards in the early days of MC, pointing out that most warriors were foolish to focus on stamina over armor and defense. His point was simple: If you have enough hp that you aren't going to get two-shotted by a bad burst, then you want as much mitigation as possible to spare healer mana.

. . .

So, for the time being in BWL, hp is king. We'll probably see that pendulum swing back the other way soon, I don't doubt.

Hah, I remember that thread. I think the last bump on it is still mine (I was "Hamlet" over there).


The thing is, if large spikes aren't the heart of the challenge, what is? Endurance-based fights really encourage healer stacking. DPS races tend not to be very interesting from a healing perspective, but that's okay every now and then.

#44 hamlet_the_lesser

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 01:18 AM

I remember a post made by Itzlegend back on the Conquest boards in the early days of MC, pointing out that most warriors were foolish to focus on stamina over armor and defense. His point was simple: If you have enough hp that you aren't going to get two-shotted by a bad burst, then you want as much mitigation as possible to spare healer mana.

. . .

So, for the time being in BWL, hp is king. We'll probably see that pendulum swing back the other way soon, I don't doubt.

Hah, I remember that thread. I think the last bump on it is still mine (I was "Hamlet" over there).


The thing is, if large spikes aren't the heart of the challenge, what is? Endurance-based fights really encourage healer stacking. DPS races tend not to be very interesting from a healing perspective, but that's okay every now and then.

Why not mix them all together. Have an increasing damage AOE over time so that if you dont kill the boss fast enough everyone is toast but if the healers let people drop too soon then you loose the DPS to finish him off. Have it be a vael type AOE so everyone is getting hit.
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#45 Praetorian

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 01:24 AM

That's a brilliant idea. Need something snappy to call the boss, though. I've got it, how about "Huhuran"?

--

I think Blizzard has painted themselves into a bit of a corner by giving players too much mana and too much mana regen to work with. They can't really design a fight whose limiting factor is running the raid out of mana, because we have too many sources of mana available to us. Forget JoW ( :angry: ) ... if my raid is wiping because of mana concerns, then we can bring to the table Nightfin, Mageblood, Mana Oils, a NDB every minute, a major mana pot every 2 minutes, innervates, demonic runes, etc. Not to mention all the mana/5 we have these days. If I really don't want to run out of mana, I won't. So either the fight will require the use of these (cheap) consumables, or you balance it to be doable without them, and their use trivializes it.

Another problem is that any mana-taxing fight has to apply damage to the entire raid. You can't apply damage to a single tank fast enough to drain a raid's mana without also splattering the tank. Maybe as tanks get larger and larger pools of hitpoints, that will change, but I'm skeptical.

I do kind of miss the feel of Golemagg or Majordomo back in early 2005, when no one died to burst damage, but simply because their healers ran out of juice.

#46 Hamlet

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 01:30 AM

Maybe as tanks get larger and larger pools of hitpoints, that will change, but I'm skeptical.

Yeah, that doesn't seem like a very stable direction to take things.

You can't just have tanks with huge amounts of HP. Bosses already mince non-tanks badly enough.

#47 Taeme

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 03:44 AM

I think Blizzard has painted themselves into a bit of a corner by giving players too much mana and too much mana regen to work with.

There are always ways around stuff like this. As ideas are explored, new things can come into play. What if you had a mob that slapped down a "you can not regenerate or regain mana" debuff on you if you spend too much mana, too fast? Or just in general? Or a mob that burns you every time you cast a spell, AoE burns, triggers item cooldown, shuts down mana per five, debuffs your spirit, so on.

The options are endless - But they do need to actually stand up and write those tools to make those encounters. It's true you can't just make a Golemagg who mashes down on the tank to drain people dry, but you can step up the cost to the whole raid and so on. I'd love to see an epic version of the Mar'li encounter, or so on, for example.


Anyway, as to the main topic, Moz is the best tank I know and will ever know, so I would personally listen to what he says. I also really agree on Imp HS over Imp Sunder. I still use sunder if it's in line for the global cooldown past the five stack point, but it's a lot rarer after the first 12ish seconds of the fight.
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#48 Hamlet

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 03:49 AM

Anyway, as to the main topic, Moz is the best tank I know and will ever know, so I would personally listen to what he says. I also really agree on Imp HS over Imp Sunder. I still use sunder if it's in line for the global cooldown past the five stack point, but it's a lot rarer after the first 12ish seconds of the fight.

Yeah. Right now, I'm just debating the Iron Will idea.

#49 Xizorz

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 08:21 PM

Here are some notable points:
* 5/5 Cruelty - As a few have pointed out, this talent is very useful since a lot of your tanking skills can crit (Revenge, Heroic Strike, Shield Bash, etc.).

* 5/5 Imp. Demoralizing Shout - At least one person in your raid should have 5/5 of this talent and keep it on everything you fight.

* 1/1 Piercing Howl - Great for those mass-spawn fights (Razorgore, Nefarian, et. al.).

I personally would cut down tactical mastery to 4/5. That allows you to get Shield Slam in a 9/11/31 build.

A question to the tanks here:

There are really 3 tanking trinkets: Onyxia's Styleens, and Lifegiving. Which 2 do you use?

#50 moz

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 01:37 AM

Here are some notable points:
* 5/5 Cruelty - As a few have pointed out, this talent is very useful since a lot of your tanking skills can crit (Revenge, Heroic Strike, Shield Bash, etc.).

* 5/5 Imp. Demoralizing Shout - At least one person in your raid should have 5/5 of this talent and keep it on everything you fight.

* 1/1 Piercing Howl - Great for those mass-spawn fights (Razorgore, Nefarian, et. al.).

I personally would cut down tactical mastery to 4/5. That allows you to get Shield Slam in a 9/11/31 build.

A question to the tanks here:

There are really 3 tanking trinkets: Onyxia's Styleens, and Lifegiving. Which 2 do you use?

Totally situational.

#51 Anglakel

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 05:48 AM

I stick with styleen's/onyxia for almost everything but Nefarian. :-/

When I didn't have styleens though, lifegiving gem saved my life on chromaggus many times (especially if i was backup tanking and 19%/frenzy hit with acid on and it switched to me with no shield on). It also has helped on flamegor with the thrash. However it is as hard to predict when the burst is coming as it is to heal it, so I generally stick to "If I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die, just make it a little harder for that to happen" with my gear selection.

#52 hamlet_the_lesser

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 05:08 AM

That's a brilliant idea. Need something snappy to call the boss, though. I've got it, how about "Huhuran"?

In my defense I have not done any research on the AQ40 bosses so I dont know their abilities with that said it is good to see blizzard is finally taking my suggestions seriously.
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#53 Elerion

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 11:20 PM

A question to the tanks here:

There are really 3 tanking trinkets: Onyxia's Styleens, and Lifegiving. Which 2 do you use?

Don't discount ZHB for certain encounters. According to our MT, the bonus gets multiplied by Imp LoH and Inspiration bonus, so it can significantly reduce physical damage taken during known tough spots, example being Nef landing and Nef warrior shout.




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