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#41 Hodor

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 10:53 AM

My guild had our first try on 25m General V tonight, and since I was one of 3 healers in our 10m attempts, I explained it to the other 4 (total of 7 healers). We decided to try to split up the healers on the MT, 3 at first until they ran oom, 3 others after that, with 1 healing the mana users getting into the vapors for mana regen. When the first 3 started healing, the other 4 were spotting just incase the 3 were having issues of whatever kind. Of course that was the plan at first. The first 3 healers' mana was great for quite some time. I ended up calling the switch on healer groups almost immediately after the first Surge of Darkness. But we ended up having to use nearly all the healers when we got to about 40% (unfortunately with the boss getting heals), and burning vapors every 30 seconds to 1 minute because of everyone getting really low. I'm here to ask on a healers perspective: managing 7 healers and making sure we always have heals on the tank, how should this be done? Is splitting up the heals like this ok to do?


We simply have all healers in melee range. That way our ranged camps always get their shadow crashes (and the curse), while the healers can concentrate entirely on healing (using stopcasting to save mana). After every surge, the DK pulls in one Vapor and kills it right next to the General, so that all healers can get mana without worrying about being bunched up and getting a curse or a shadow crash since they are in melee range.

#42 khel

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 11:55 AM

We simply have all healers in melee range. That way our ranged camps always get their shadow crashes (and the curse), while the healers can concentrate entirely on healing (using stopcasting to save mana). After every surge, the DK pulls in one Vapor and kills it right next to the General, so that all healers can get mana without worrying about being bunched up and getting a curse or a shadow crash since they are in melee range.


That's fine until your casters need mana. If too many are in melee range then shadow crashes and marks start happening in melee range, which can wipe you pretty easily.

#43 Frozenn

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 12:31 PM

Concur. I tanked Vezax next to the vapors last Saturday, and the healers were doing just fine with it.

How are non-warrior tanks kiting Vezax during the surge? Or are they just tanking him straight through it? I've found that even with the surge's snare, he runs faster than I do with the boot speed enchant. Do you expect a priest with Body and Soul?


In 10 man I simply run as a paladin with pursuit of justice. Got hit once, because I started running too late. Just need to stand at the edge of his hitbox, and start running as soon as he casts.

#44 vorda

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 12:33 PM

That's fine until your casters need mana. If too many are in melee range then shadow crashes and marks start happening in melee range, which can wipe you pretty easily.


Not that hard to communicate about stuff like this though. Just make sure your casters know when they are allowed to use clouds.

#45 Exemplar

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 01:12 PM

Hearing conflicting reports about Shadow Resistance on this fight. Both that it's very very bad (you can full resist Saronite Vapor and get no regen) and that it's useful (you can partial/full resist Saronite Vapor damage but the debuff still applies and generates mana).

Right now I'm applying the Razuvious method (SR Aura applied to MCed Understudies, who then had increased heartbeat resist checks) - telling everyone not to use any SR (barring Druid Gift). I'd love to know if it's safe - reduced/resisted damage from people who Can't Runâ„¢ from Shadow Crash and during the mana regen will obviously make it easier on general raid healing, which probably means axe a healer for another DPS and a faster fight.

Anyone know for sure whether SR buffs (aura and prayer) are safe?

Note: I can at least rule this out as cause of buggy Vapor. We're only running with Gift, still have no-regen Vapor and when it occurs no one gets any regen on that Vapor, even if they hop in and out multiple times. This guarantees bad Vapor is more than just SR issues (assuming SR chance for no Vapor debuff is even true). I must say, it's terribly frustrating to have a buggy mechanic which is so integral to a fight - we had 3 failed vapor out of 5 on a single attempt.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
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#46 Melthu

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 03:21 PM

Kiting as a druid tank is trivial, just shift to cat form and run pretty much anywhere you want. You can actually build enough distance to stop and Rebirth someone if they're in your kite path.

#47 Silmeria

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 03:36 PM

Hearing conflicting reports about Shadow Resistance on this fight. Both that it's very very bad (you can full resist Saronite Vapor and get no regen) and that it's useful (you can partial/full resist Saronite Vapor damage but the debuff still applies and generates mana).

Shadow Resist effects are fine. I wore an extra SR piece so I could push the 8th tick without (hopefully) dying on our first kill. Kind of a crutch for when you're going for hard mode though, so I wouldn't really recommend it for the long-term.

  0:04'46.969	Silmeriah is afflicted by Saronite Vapors (4).
  0:04'49.031	Silmeriah gains 1600 Mana from nil Saronite Vapors.
  0:04'49.031	nil Saronite Vapors hits Silmeriah for 2240 Shadow. (960 Resisted)	
  0:04'49.031	Silmeriah is afflicted by Saronite Vapors (5).
  0:04'51.016	Silmeriah gains 3200 Mana from nil Saronite Vapors.	
  0:04'51.016	nil Saronite Vapors hits Silmeriah for 5120 Shadow. (1280 Resisted)	
  0:04'51.031	Silmeriah is afflicted by Saronite Vapors (6).	
  0:04'52.984	Silmeriah gains 6400 Mana from nil Saronite Vapors.	
  0:04'52.984	nil Saronite Vapors hits Silmeriah for 9204 Shadow. (1280 Resisted) (2316 Absorbed)	
  0:04'52.984	Silmeriah is afflicted by Saronite Vapors (7).	
  0:04'54.984	Silmeriah gains 12800 Mana from nil Saronite Vapors.
  0:04'54.984	nil Saronite Vapors hits Silmeriah for 15360 Shadow. (10240 Resisted)	#591860


#48 LucidityAxel

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 04:57 PM

A DK tank gives you the option of using Icebound Fortitude on every surge instead kiting the boss. This tremendously simplifies the fight -- we one-shot him the very first time we tried it.

#49 Harwin

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 05:04 PM

It doesn't take very many cooldowns on any tank to survive. DK tanks obviously can do it themselves.

We used a warrior tank and with his enrage timer at 10 minutes, you've only got to survive 9 of those buffs(if the fight goes that long) 5 of them (#1, #3, #5, #7, and #9) can be dealt with by Shield Wall.
The other 4, the warrior pops his other cooldowns and either Pain Suppression, Guardian Spirit, or the pally buff (I'm sorry, I forget the name) covers it. It's obviously more complicated than a DK, but you've got 2 minutes in between ones healers need to help on, and we just call out in advance which healer is going to be responsible this time (or whether the tank is going to just shield wall it)

Edit:
Once we did that Searing Flames was the only issue. Kiting him just makes that harder. We also ended up asking our Enh. Shaman to stop using Earth Shock in his rotation. It hurt his DPS but he'd screw up the kick timing of the rogues since he'd lock-out only for 2 seconds. The rogue kicking seemed to get much better after that.

#50 Mideci

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 07:58 PM

The other 4, the warrior pops his other cooldowns and either Pain Suppression, Guardian Spirit, or the pally buff (I'm sorry, I forget the name) covers it.


Hand of Sacrifice is what it's called.

#51 norikk

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 08:06 PM

Why would you not kite the boss, except maybe for the 1st surge when the tank is trying to get a good hold on aggro? Kiting reduces immensely the damage you take since every minute you can spend 15s not getting hit at all. Kiting surges offers 25% less damage taken when compared to a strategy that uses a DK tanking with IBF all the fight. Healer positioning is not an issue because you can safely kite between two predefined positions, with healers standing in the middle.

#52 Mideci

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 09:38 PM

Having only done this with a fixed-position tank, the answer I'd say is that healing is very light anyway, especially if your ranged is avoiding the shadow crashes and you are interrupting the flames. So this just lets everyone more or less get into position and stay in position.

#53 Gofa

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 11:14 PM

Basically it's the same with Emalon. You just heal your tank through the nova instead of letting him run out and in again (at least on our server).
Of course you're right that kiting should reduce damage taken. But your tank, your healers or your interrupts could mess the kiting phase up ending probably in a wipe.
In my opinion a static fight is always easier and hey, cooldowns are there to be used. ;)

#54 Tojara

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 12:52 AM

It's fairly safe to say that kiting or standing still are both perfectly acceptable methods when doing this boss on normal mode. There is no urgency to conserve mana, positioning is easier and the fight is far simplified if you stand in one position.

The hard mode is another beast all together, as ~15 seconds where the tank isn't taking damage would be absolutely necessary to save as much mana as possible. Using this method a DK for example would be free to keep his defensive abilities on CD during normal phases, which would thus lower the amount of healing needed.

Can the discussion please move on from kiting and or standing still?

#55 Giske

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 04:20 PM

The hard mode is another beast all together, as ~15 seconds where the tank isn't taking damage would be absolutely necessary to save as much mana as possible. Using this method a DK for example would be free to keep his defensive abilities on CD during normal phases, which would thus lower the amount of healing needed.


It is not absolutely necessary when it has been beaten on hard mode without the use of kiting. Both methods are viable for both modes of the fight.

#56 Snowy

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 04:28 PM

It's fairly safe to say that kiting or standing still are both perfectly acceptable methods when doing this boss on normal mode. There is no urgency to conserve mana, positioning is easier and the fight is far simplified if you stand in one position.

The hard mode is another beast all together, as ~15 seconds where the tank isn't taking damage would be absolutely necessary to save as much mana as possible. Using this method a DK for example would be free to keep his defensive abilities on CD during normal phases, which would thus lower the amount of healing needed.

Can the discussion please move on from kiting and or standing still?


The tradeoff is that by keeping the boss still you increase DPS, which makes the fight shorter. It's a valid discussion.

#57 Mideci

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 06:44 PM

Furthermore, I'm a little curious what else about the fight is worth discussing. Strategically, you want your ranged dps to be spread out some distance from the boss so that no one gets hit by shadow crash and yet people can quickly get to the residue to dps from it. That much seems obvious.

I suppose one can argue about where to put the healers, altho it seems fairly obvious that melee range is safer with no discernable downside other than a guarantee they have to move in order to pick up the cloud residues.

This fight reminds me a lot of Void Reaver, of all things: There is a core mechanic that has a lot of people running around, but the fewer people you can get by with running around, the better off you are.

#58 Torrential

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:13 PM

a guarantee they have to move in order to pick up the cloud residues.


Death grip the clouds to Vezax.

#59 Fabinas

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:55 PM

Has anyone tried the on Vezax? Would be nice to know if the triggered mana effect works on this fight.

#60 Dollar

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 09:07 PM

Has anyone tried the on Vezax? Would be nice to know if the triggered mana effect works on this fight.


I really, really doubt it works. No other trinkets of any kind work unless they somehow forgot that one.
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