Jump to content


Photo

Val'anyr - Hammer of the Ancient Kings


  • Please log in to reply
236 replies to this topic

#221 Drane

Drane

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 79 posts

Posted 10 December 2009 - 11:06 PM

Will this mace be replaceable come ICC? Is it worth finishing the second half of one mace and possibly building a third one for ICC or would it be a complete waste of possible progression time?



Its funny, for a druid I really don't think it will be replaced in ICC. With Glyph of Rapid Rejuvenation - Item - World of Warcraft and ~90 haste below the haste cap for non-LB hots, my amount of healing possible during a Rejuv-blanketing situation has increased, thus the amount of healing I can do during the blessing proc (and the amount of shielding I can do, obviously) has also increased. If you take my recent ICC10 parse World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis for example (tab over to my healing by spell) it attributed for over 20% of my effective healing done throughout the instance. Now, there are tons of opportunities to blanket the raid with HoTs, so this may be inflated from a "normal" raid scenario, but you can also look at this recent ToC25 normal parse (I think there's Sarth in there too >.>) World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis, its still attributing for over 10% of my effective healing.

Now, you can make any argument you wish as to whether or not shielding counts or doesn't count as "healing done," but if you count it as effective healing, that would mean I would need to find a weapon that would increase my healing by 10% to overcome the value of the blessing. I really don't see this happening in ICC.

#222 Mideci

Mideci

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 821 posts

Posted 11 December 2009 - 06:11 AM

Shielding is effective healing when there is incoming damage to heal and it's possible to heal less as a result of said shield. Otherwise, it's ineffective/superfluous healing as we said many moons ago.

To give an example, if the shield obviated the need to cast the nth Wild Growth to top up the raid, that's effective healing. If even the shielded people still need the same rank of rejuv they always did, the shields didn't really do anything by being there.

#223 Drane

Drane

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 79 posts

Posted 11 December 2009 - 06:41 AM

Well, that 10% shielding was the shields that were actually absorbed, too. No clue how much shielding it actually does that doesn't get absorbed.

#224 Silmeria

Silmeria

    I am a nice guy

  • Members
  • 9539 posts

Posted 11 December 2009 - 04:02 PM

Was it ever confirmed if WoL accurately tracked the absorb amount? It was incorrect for the longest time - the entirety of Ulduar at least.

#225 Slackie

Slackie

    Bald Bull

  •  Patrons
  • 2003 posts

Posted 11 December 2009 - 04:44 PM

Blizzard never implemented proper absorb tracking like GC said they would, as far as I've been able to tell. WoL still guesses.

#226 Drane

Drane

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 79 posts

Posted 11 December 2009 - 06:11 PM

Yea, it "guesses" the amount absorbed based on the power of the shield before the shield is taken away by subsequent damage in the combat log. I assume it gets the power of the shield by just knowing the amount of heals you did on that target with your Blessing active. I think the only problem with blizzard adding a way to accurately track this is the discrepancy with how multiple shields are used up in which order.

Here's a chunk of the combat log where our priest has her Divine Aegis get taken off, and my Protection falls as well.

12/10 19:13:48.467  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x04800000020231AB,"Thessaly",0x514,0x04800000027A7C07,"Drahndia",0x514,47753,"Divine Aegis",0x2,BUFF
12/10 19:13:48.467  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x04800000005A8C2B,"Drane",0x511,0x04800000027A7C07,"Drahndia",0x514,64413,"Protection of Ancient Kings",0x8,BUFF
12/10 19:13:48.467  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0xF1500087EC002206,"Gormok the Impaler",0xa48,0x04800000027A7C07,"Drahndia",0x514,67479,"Impale",0x1,4356,0,1,0,0,2835,nil,nil,nil


#227 Drane

Drane

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 79 posts

Posted 11 December 2009 - 08:53 PM

Harmankaya, if you're still reading this thread, did you ever get your shields above 10k with your edited LibShieldLeft? I've been messing around with GridStatusShield and it seems to work fine with showing the Protection shields, but they always cap out at 10k. There's a LUA "guru" (for lack of a better term) in our guild, so I was going to have him look it over to see if he could somehow fix it; I have barely any knowledge of LUA >.>

Edit:: The mod just started messing up the moment I got into a group, it just displays shield values of "0" on anyone with the buff. -.-

#228 Mideci

Mideci

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 821 posts

Posted 12 December 2009 - 12:46 PM

Well, that 10% shielding was the shields that were actually absorbed, too. No clue how much shielding it actually does that doesn't get absorbed.


It does not matter if the shields get absorbed in many cases. Why? Because if there was also a heal required and said heal also would've topped the person off without the shield, the shield did nothing special. It might have prevented death in some extreme cases, but otherwise, it just converted a portion of some other heal to overheal. That's not amazing or even interesting. And yet it is precisely what randomly tossed around shields do quite often.

#229 Harmankaya

Harmankaya

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 43 posts

Posted 12 December 2009 - 03:03 PM

Harmankaya, if you're still reading this thread, did you ever get your shields above 10k with your edited LibShieldLeft? I've been messing around with GridStatusShield and it seems to work fine with showing the Protection shields, but they always cap out at 10k. There's a LUA "guru" (for lack of a better term) in our guild, so I was going to have him look it over to see if he could somehow fix it; I have barely any knowledge of LUA >.>

Edit:: The mod just started messing up the moment I got into a group, it just displays shield values of "0" on anyone with the buff. -.-


Still read sometimes, just kind of lost my incentive to post after getting an infraction for my last effort in this thread.
The shields cap at 10k, that happened recently (this patch or the one before), but it doesn't really concern me that much, as shields generally tends to hover between 0-6k for my healing-style.
It bugs out and shows "0" for me as well when the other Valanyr in the raid procs, but it still works fine for me. This is what it looks like on a typical proc.

Posted Image

For your convenience I've also attached my GridStatusShield, which while not perfect still gives a hell of a lot more insight into what your mace is doing as opposed to nothing at all.

http://dl.dropbox.co...tatusShield.rar

I have no knowledge of lua whatsoever, this addon is a result of hours and hours with trial and error, and it won't work for non-druids. It won't work for your priest-alt either, so personally I keep 2 separate GridStatusShields zipped down and I have to extract the one belonging to the healer I'm about to play.

Hope this helps, and if I get a new infraction for this you owe me a PS3.

#230 Drane

Drane

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 79 posts

Posted 13 December 2009 - 04:16 PM

It does not matter if the shields get absorbed in many cases. Why? Because if there was also a heal required and said heal also would've topped the person off without the shield, the shield did nothing special. It might have prevented death in some extreme cases, but otherwise, it just converted a portion of some other heal to overheal. That's not amazing or even interesting. And yet it is precisely what randomly tossed around shields do quite often.


Yea, I see a lot of shields that even get procced are off of stray rejuv/wild growth ticks for Revitilize procs, or just during parts of the fight where there is literally no damage going out.

Still read sometimes, just kind of lost my incentive to post after getting an infraction for my last effort in this thread.
The shields cap at 10k, that happened recently (this patch or the one before), but it doesn't really concern me that much, as shields generally tends to hover between 0-6k for my healing-style.


That's good to know that they changed the max shield value, and that I'm not just going crazy >.>

Thanks a ton for uploading your version!

#231 Harmankaya

Harmankaya

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 43 posts

Posted 14 December 2009 - 02:23 PM

That's good to know that they changed the max shield value, and that I'm not just going crazy >.>

Thanks a ton for uploading your version!


Just to clarify, I'm not saying blizzard toned down the max-cap on Val'anyr-shields to 10k (allthough it's probably likely), I'm just saying that GridStatusShields cap them at 10k as opposed to 20k earlier.

How GridStatusShield actually determines the cap I'm not sure of, but since I haven't updated my "hacked" version at all and still it changed, it leads me to believe that it somehow automatically draws this information out of some gamefiles (which then again supports your conclusion).
Then again, I haven't bothered any research on this, since it's hard to get affected by it by a druid under normal circumstances (except maybe 5man).

Sidenote: if you rather want the numbers in x.xk format instead of xxxx, this is easily adjusted in the lua. I just found it alot more "realtime" to keep numbers under 10k in their full format.

#232 sycorax314

sycorax314

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 12 January 2010 - 07:31 PM

Ive seen mentioned here and there in discussions of how the mace proc works that another healer with the mace would build onto the same shield. Yet I never see this mechanic included in any discussions of the maces value in a raid. It seems to me that if you can potentially have a shield on a raid member for 23 seconds (15 second healer buff + 8 second shield duration after the last heal with the buff active) then if you have several maces in the raid proccing at staggered intervals you should be able to maintain 100% shield uptime on a large portion of the raid, and should be able to achieve or approach maximum shield values.

Its been quite a heated discussion in my guild with several ppl feeling the time we farmed for the mace was utterly wasted and for the life of me cant convince ppl that having a few more would make the differece between an eh, ok proc and an amazing raid buff for hard mode content. Am I just way off base, or does having several Val'anyr greatly increase the uptime of the shields, and how many would you need to maintain near 100% uptime on the shields?

Its just that I see guilds like premontion farming for many of the things and i cant imagine that they are doing it because they have nothing better to do. In videos ive seen of their kills it seems like the shields are just always up, and that if you were to put the effort into farming that many of them (ug) It would then be worth its legendary title.

#233 MatsT

MatsT

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 485 posts

Posted 12 January 2010 - 07:37 PM

Unless there is some bug in effect, there is little additional advantage to having several maces apart from the individual upgrade that each mace is. The "uptime" of the shield is mostly irrelevant, what matters is how much it absorbs. In some cases when the shield runs out before it absorbs anything renewing it with a second mace could increase the power slightly since less absorbs are wasted. The raw power of the shield differs a lot depending on classes. A paladin will usually have massive amounts of overhealing due to the size of holy light and beacon always being up. In this case the mace is a lot better and the shield can be over 10% of the paladins healing making it a lot better than the icc alternatives. On for example a resto shaman, I doubt it's a lot better if at all than the icc weapons.

#234 sycorax314

sycorax314

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 15 January 2010 - 05:15 PM

Also I tested the theory that the shield cap was lowered to 10k and it doesnt seem to be the case. I was in an ICC 10 man, in the brand new hallway boss (neo-frogger frost plumes). I hotted myself fully and spammed nourish to proc and max out a shield on myself and walked through a frost plume. Unfortunately a disc priest in the same run caught me with a power word: shield as well, but since his shields average about 7k I was still able to use the combat log to determine an estimated shield value. In total I absorbed just over 23k dmg, so with approx. 7k attributed to pw:s, the absorb from Blessing of the Ancient Kings should have been roughly 15-16k. Even if the pw:s was a crit, the absorb values are well over the cap of 10k that is being displayed on some mods.

#235 Mideci

Mideci

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 821 posts

Posted 15 January 2010 - 10:19 PM

Disc priest shield can absorb quite a bit more than 7k. There are people in the priest forums talking of the glyph healing for 2.5k which implies a 12.5k shield. Regardless whether that's with or without Divine Aegis, there is also a heal component coming from the shield even being cast on you.

In short, even if you removed that "shield heal" from the equation -- I have no idea what your mod is and is not doing -- you could've absorbed 13k from the priest and only 10k from Val'anyr. To get a real test, you need to basically find a situation where someone (ideally not you) is going to get smashed hard enough so that the shield is fully absorbed before it's gone. Then proc the blessing and then spam the ever living crap of the person to get in as much healing as you possibly can. With the damage incoming you can then look at the combat log and see the absorbs and figure out the maximum shield size.

One way this might work is to go to an in-game arena where people can freely attack each other and bring a warlock, mage, hunter or rogue who can -- on demand -- start being on the person and then stop once the shield is gone or the person is dead. It's pretty easy to parse the absorbs but you might want to have someone who can spam a single attack of sufficiently high damage to make the log entries shorter. For example, a warlock spamming shadowbolt or incincerate should work; a rogue hitting with two wepaons, special attacks, and poisons would be somehwat more irritating to parse through.

Again, this is a pretty easy test to do and would answer the question one way or the other.

Finally, I just re-read this: "Its just that I see guilds like premontion farming for many of the things and i cant imagine that they are doing it because they have nothing better to do."

What else do they have to do? A top end guild can clear Icecrown and ToGC in 1 night with ease. Prior to Icecrown coming out, it was an hour-ish. I can see a high-end guild that enjoys raiding clearing Ulduar in 2 hours a few more times to get yet another person a mace. They can do some goofy achievements, re-stock abyss crystals (ok, that's a stretch) and get another mace even if the person getting it might not use it throughout all of Icecrown Citadel. It's pretty hamless if you enjoy playing WoW. A guild on Stormrage is working on it's 4th or 5th. They're a top 300-400 guild. They're just killing time till hardmodes come out. More power to them.

#236 Grizlor

Grizlor

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 104 posts

Posted 22 January 2010 - 09:48 AM

To get a real test, you need to basically find a situation where someone (ideally not you) is going to get smashed hard enough so that the shield is fully absorbed before it's gone. Then proc the blessing and then spam the ever living crap of the person to get in as much healing as you possibly can. With the damage incoming you can then look at the combat log and see the absorbs and figure out the maximum shield size.


After having this mace a while, the highest I have seen according to recount guessed absorbs is slightly over 19k, which occurred while healing on Festergut. Chain critting healing waves for 33-35k thanks to Guardian Spirit during heroism in conjunction with the tank avoiding several hits can produce an extremely hefty shield.

#237 Mideci

Mideci

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 821 posts

Posted 22 January 2010 - 10:57 AM

So again, I've got no dog in this race, but "recount guessed absorbs" in your situation really tells us nothing.

That's not data, it's anecdote.

Our Val'anyr is in the hands of a druid, so I'm honestly not sure he could make a big enough shield to tell us much in a test. But someone with a paladin or shaman probably could. It's possible no one cares enough, which based on the status of this thread is a reasonable conclusion.

But that said, these stories from Icecrown tell us the shields might be really big. Or they might not.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users