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Val'anyr - Hammer of the Ancient Kings

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#21 Frogmite


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Posted 05 May 2009 - 12:14 PM

Less hardcore guilds that are only now starting to clear ulduar will not be getting 5shards pr week on average (which is what it'd take to get two hammers). Add to that the fact that less hardcore guilds usually have bigger problems with turnover/guild splits and that they will be doing significantly fewer hardmodes and less chance of dual-clears (10&25) (I do think the drop% is higher for hardmodes) you are way off course here.

Other then that I agree with your post, but this hammer will not be seeing any large quantities in any guilds that are not bleeding edge (think 4hm t3&tf-warrior transfers in classic), any time soon.

Sorry I didn't make myself very clear; I was thinking more about guilds that are clearing stuff now rather than in the first 2 or 3 days. My feeling is that guilds that brute force encounters will still brute force them without this but those that stick to their normal schedule and will take more than a month to clear all the hard modes will find these extremely useful for progression.

Actually in reality it's no-where near 23 seconds. Apart from Sapphiron where is the AoE damage to the raid constant? My limited experience is that I won't heal any one person more than about once every 10 seconds even when things are crazy. Also the individual shields will be weak. As mentioned above a 6k heal, which is big for AoE healing gives a 900 point shield. I have yet to see an encounter where that makes the difference, what makes the difference is people not coordinating healing or someone standing where they shouldn't. To get meaningful raid protection out of this proc, whenever it happens to be up you will need to spam very high cost spells.CoH/wildgrowth aren't going to cut it in the making a major difference category, either you have enough healing without the mace or your wiping anyway. An extra, maybe useless 500pt shield to random dude every 45 seconds isn't worth the price of the proc. It's very similar to the value of a discs priest Aegis, which is in raid healing terms a complete non-event.

Certainly my experience raiding on my priest has been somewhat different. At least being one of 5 healers on Kologarn/Hodir I was finding that I needed to and could constantly spam PoH and the fights were over fast enough that even with constant casting (Kologarn was extremely laggy for us; yay for instance servers) mana wasn't an issue.

Also with paticulary healing intensive fights normally one healer is on the same group of people anyway (ie: melee/ranged camps even group specific sometimes - mimiron phase 2) so this mace would shine there.

There is certainly nowhere in naxx you'll get that much usage out of it without running at 3 or so healers though.

From what I have seen, hardmodes are only about pushing near impossible DPS numbers from your raid and outlandish HPS on your tank. It's got nothing to do with raid damage. Hard-mode wise, the mace proc will be very valuable on your MT, because it should allow you to drop a healer in favor of another DPS. Not because you can shield your raid from a few thousand damage.

I had Hard Mode; AoI: Runemaster, Freya, Mimiron, Hodir and Thorim in my mind as having alot of raid damage as well as the rediculous DPS requirements but this is just obsevational and theoretical from my stance maybe I over-estimated. I guess someone who has experienced more of them should clarify but I would of still thought it would be more useful than a shield on the MT? The relative % wise mitigation would be more surely as many tanks are getting to in excess of twice many DPSers HP.

#22 Pitbuller


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Posted 05 May 2009 - 12:53 PM

Tanks need steady hps flow and this has to be as big as usual worst case scenario. Low uptime shield don't allow you drop tank healer. Proc only increase tank overheal or save some mana but don't allow you solo heal any better.
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#23 cyimben


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Posted 05 May 2009 - 01:01 PM

I can't understand the number of statements about how little the shields ,like 900 dmg absorbs, are so many. We can see many WWS parses in Ulduar which for example healing stream does %20+ healing with 500ish ticks even it is not raid wide, without an icd the bonus of the mace is very good and i m sure with so many consistent dmgdealing towards the raid , even with the little 900 dmg shield procs plus spamming aoe heals , Val'anyr proly suits its legendary name with the bonus.

And i must add that sure i think the same way about controllable heal is too much preferable than some proccing shield but after some point raid healing is just about a bit of spamming with eyeclosed occasionally (for aoe healing classes mostly) and without icd i m pretty sure there will be too many shields on many raid members just like the healing stream ticks. An item that holds a buff that good is legen...wait for it...dary to me :)

#24 Vuldunobetra


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Posted 05 May 2009 - 03:03 PM

It would be possible to take combat logs and analyze just how often the theoretical shield would be consumed by later damage vs how often the shield would expire unused. Just look for each healer, what percentage of the time does the target of their heal take damage in the next 8 seconds. Based on Healing Stream Totem numbers, I'd reckon that the shield will fall off 50% or more when on raid heals.

For raid healing, best case is a 5% increase in raw healing output. (15% * 15s / 45s icd). Overhealing will vary from fight to fight. Best case is Sapphiron, with raidwise periodic damage. Worse case is for burst damage like XT's tantrum, when the proc might not come at the right time.

#25 Draugdae


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Posted 05 May 2009 - 03:08 PM

Any raid-wide burst damage that coincides approximately with the internal cooldown on the proc will dramaticly increase its benefit. If XT's first tantrum comes about 1 minute after the start of the fight than in will likely coincide with the proc which would provide significant returns.

#26 Vhex


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Posted 05 May 2009 - 03:41 PM

While not the best proc in the world, I appreciate that it's not as stupidly overpowered as TF/WG's were. That being said, it'd be nice if it were a right click effect so we can proc it when we need it as opposed to it conveniently going off during a lull in the fight. Any paladin will tell you how often their Jedi sense goes off and they can sneak in a good 10 seconds of divine plea now and then. Or ask a priest about how often you got a good 7~9 seconds of OO5sr regen.

I was honestly hoping that it'd be something like a proc that your heals grant your target 200 dodge rating, 200 sp and 300 ap for 5 seconds (can only be up on one target at a time per hammer wielder) or something. Good enough to help tanks, but 99% of our wipes haven't been because of a lack of healing, but a lack of dps.

Actually, you know what would be -really- awesome? Right click effect, removes all void zone and void zone like effects within a 100 yard radius of the caster. Oh to dream that impossible dream!

#27 MatsT


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Posted 05 May 2009 - 03:46 PM

When tank healing with this mace, it's important to keep in mind that an absorb shield is often significantly better than a heal of the same size. Tank deaths these days comes almost exclusively from 2-3-shots, and the absorb shield will soften this burst. I guess this is mostly an effect of the very high overhealing percentages you will get when healing tanks on hard-hitting bosses.

EDIT: Blizzard clarified some stuff, i'm still somewhat confused how they're gonna implement it though.

#28 tesk


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Posted 05 May 2009 - 04:00 PM

Since HoT's do not overheal targets on 100% hp but rather not heal at all, I don't think this will add to the shield. This doesn't make the mace useless to the druid, but it significantly reduces it's effectiveness for them.

Every tick regardless of if it heals or not will add to the shield once you have the blessing. This has already been attested to by GC. Those ticks "not healing" are just displayed like that from the game client. The server knows that the heal ticked and will add that 15% value to the shield.

#29 Xunwael


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Posted 05 May 2009 - 04:08 PM

That is not quite true, Xunwael (...)

I guess I should've listened to the voice in the back of my head telling me I was forgetting something. I still think a random proc is not much to brag about, though.
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#30 Sarjin


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Posted 05 May 2009 - 04:19 PM

Any raid-wide burst damage that coincides approximately with the internal cooldown on the proc will dramaticly increase its benefit. If XT's first tantrum comes about 1 minute after the start of the fight than in will likely coincide with the proc which would provide significant returns.

Value of the proc indeed depends strongly on the nature and cooldown of raid damage, as I can see Tantrum type damage being useful with pulsed damage during which you are healing. (Obviously you don't need a Legendary for XT) Hodir's Frozen Blows is another one which comes to mind.

On the other hand I fear the proc will be near useless on say Kologarn, as the interval between damage will likely cause the shields to fall off more often than not.

I think for raid healing the proc will become a lot more valuable if they increase the shield timer to about 15 seconds, as it will increase the likelihood of additional damage immensely.

#31 Jazzer


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Posted 05 May 2009 - 04:26 PM

I'm not too thrilled that it has both the 10% proc rate AND the 45s ICD. That's my biggest complaint on a lot of the items that have an ICD. I do think putting ICDs on procs are a good thing because it allows them to be a LOT less random by upping the proc rate to 25-50% (look at lightweave embroidery for example.) However, after the ICD expires, you could be waiting for another ~15 seconds before it procs.

Actually, given that the hammer is a crit/haste piece, a mana-related proc would have made a fair amount of sense. Something along the lines of a proc that returns mana based on effective healing. Also, a mana-reducing/returning would be something that's universal for everyone; everyone can use more mana. Though with their recent concern with regen levels, I can see why they'd want to shy away from a mana-related proc.
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#32 Snowy


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Posted 05 May 2009 - 04:39 PM

Don't turn this thread into a wishlisting thread of what you think the proc should have done, nobody wants to read pages of armchair designing.

#33 Sprout



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Posted 05 May 2009 - 06:36 PM

If (and its a big if) your guild is strictly handing out shards based upon usefulness, then I would point out that some classes have distinct advantages. IMHO the proc will be better off in the hands of your best player, as the class difference is not huge, but its there.

Assuming players of equal skill, advantages are as follows

1) Druids...lots of proc chances due to multiple HoT/heals. This means the time between the ICD and the next proc are shorter on average. In addition if the 8 sec timer on the shield is reset a HoT will automatically keep the shield up for the full time between the proc and the 23 second mark. this is a HUGE advantage because as a Druid you may have half a dozen HoT's up before the proc even takes effect. ALL of those start building shields as soon as the proc occurs. Lastly Druid have alot of control over when they get big heals with blooms and swiftmends. Time those right and you can make maximum use of a shield on a raid member or tank. dont even get me started on

2) Holy....some of the advantages of Druids with HoT's (proc increase, pre HoTing) but not as much. However Holy has PoH and CoH, and Divine Hymn. All of those will make very good use of the overheal which is typically associated with their use. 15% is not awesome but its nothing to sneeze at either. Holy and Shammies who want to spam over heal to build up a shield are going to pay a big cost in HPM. For some fights this is not a big deal. For some it might be.

3) Pally....This is pretty simple. Massive crit and throughput mean that when MT healing you build some really nice shields. The problem with Pallys (and Shammies, and Disc) is the lack opf HoT's mean that getting the next proc may take more time. Its not huge but it's there none the less. As a MT healer the 8 sec shield will be renewed the vast majority of the time, so that is not an issue. And with their overheal normally being so high you dont need to worry about killing your HPM to build the shield

4) Shammies.....Similar to Holy with a few downsides. HST probably wont count towards shields as it is considered a pet in the combat log. ES will however since the healing is atributed to the shammie. And unlike PoH, if CH does not jump due to lack of targets, it wont build shields. The longer proc issue is also a potential problem compared to Holy/Druids. Not as bad as pallies if each jump can proc the weapon. The shield may drop off of people more since CH spam tends to jump around alot (no pun intended). Being a shaman myself, the idea of this weapon plus 1.7s chain heal spam with the 4 piece T8 bonus does make me drool however.

5) Disc.....not much to be said. Kind of get screwed on this one unless they make it build shields/proc from PW:S and DA.

Two other points

Shields >>> Healing. The value of shield go up as the value of the dmg approaches your current HP pool.

While the 3.75-5% value would work out to be true for effective healing, the fact that this uses overhealing raises the number significantly. I have not doen the numbers, but the 10% number thrown out by others in this thread seems to be reasonable.

All in all an amazing proc.

#34 fearyaks


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Posted 05 May 2009 - 06:44 PM

NM... failed at reading comprehension

#35 Ellyh


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Posted 05 May 2009 - 08:44 PM

When calculating the value of this proc to effective healing increases you cannot simply add 15% of all heals to the total and call it a day, this and things like PWS/Aegis directly lower the heal part of your effective healing by reducing damage taken and increasing overheal. What it does does do is give extra cushion against spike damage. Example, tank gets smashed in the face for 20k health and pally with this weapon crits for 19k this places a bubble on the tank of 2850. Next swing boss hits tank in the face again for 10k health and the pally lands another 19k crit (she's on fire today) tank takes 7150 damage and has another 2850 bubble on him. However the pally's effective healing is 19k +2850x2 +8150 = 32850 effective healing. Without the proc the tank would still be at full health and the pally would have healed 30,000 k health. The only actual gain is the residual 2850 which is 8.6% of the pallies throughput, while the buff is in effect.

Note that divine Aegis is about the same throughput and is a whole lot more reliable, my experience is that it is in the 6-7% range of my healing and raid buffed will be near as good as this proc but it is up ALL the time, basically the proc looks to me as if it is as good as 1 talent point spent in Aegis which is not exactly inspiring for a legendary proc.

#36 Th1rte3n


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Posted 05 May 2009 - 10:43 PM

I'm also pretty underwhelmed by the proc. If you make some generous assumptions of a perfect 33.3% uptime, as well as +15% effective healing (assuming all shields proc'd are used in their entirety), this makes a grand total of about +5% healing; in reality, it will be lower. Between it's relatively uncontrollable nature and the mace's somewhat disappointing stats (the same spell power as the only other ilvl 239 mace I can find, ), I have to say this is probably one of the least impressive legendaries; certainly nowhere near the level of the warblades or TF. Even more sad is the fact that it will probably be outclassed by the first mace to drop out of whatever raid instance is released in the next content patch (barring a hopeful buff to the mace). I don't see that it's worth the effort needed to make it at all.

#37 arison


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Posted 05 May 2009 - 11:46 PM

Unlike trinkets or other procs, you can equip and unequip this mace in combat to help influence when the proc will occur. No guarantee on perfect timing, but if you know a sudden surge of damage is coming, you can equip the mace a bit before it and hope for a proc (with ticking hots, AOE heals, etc, you can increase the chance of the proc occurring when you want it to).

Not ideal, but really nice. Let's not forget how much better the shard system is than random drops, too; guilds can build towards the mace rather than farm hoping for lucky drops. Overall, definitely a nice legendary. I think people are underestimating the value of the shield; even in the next tier of content, flat percent of healing as a shield will scale quite nicely.
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#38 Denrire


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Posted 06 May 2009 - 01:02 AM

There seems to be a general consensus that the proc will be quite useful for raid damage mitigation. However, I am not entirely sure that the buff will allow the healer to put bubbles on all raid members. Here an excerpt from the blue post regarding the effect of the mace that may lead people to believe the effect can affect the raid:

Now all of your heals for the next 15 sec cause an 8 sec damage shield.

This language sounds like it may possibly affect the entire raid, however if you put those aside for a moment and focus on the description of the effect, it isn't quite so clear. From the posts, here is my understanding of the mechanic.
  • A Healer casts a spell on a target that is below 100% health. The mace has a 10% chance to trigger it's effect. If it does, the 45 second internal cooldown is triggered.
  • A heal triggers the proc, this immediately places a buff on the healed target, providing a shield for them that will absorb 15% of the amount of effective healing.
  • Simultaneously, the healer gains a buff that will allow any of their additional heals to increase the amount that this single shield will absorb.
  • If the target takes damage and the entire shield is absorbed, any heals cast on that target will cause a new shield to be generated, as long as the buff remains on healer.
Further, Ghostcrawler seems to have elaborated on Bornakk's remark.

…[O]nce the blessing is active, then all of your healing spells will contribute to the bubble even if they do no actual healing.

I know that GC's final remark refers to all healers getting 'juicy bubbles'—and this is the only occurrence in these posts of referring to the effect in plurality—however, I think he is referring to all of the bubbles that the healer will create over their healing career, not the bubbles they will create while the buff is up.

In short, I don't think the hammer will affect the entire raid, however I do think Blizzard will need to make another post to address this specifically.

edit: grammar

#39 Xunwael


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Posted 06 May 2009 - 01:21 AM

blah buffs blah something blah
In short, I don't think the hammer will affect the entire raid, however I do think Blizzard will need to make another post to address this specifically.

That makes no sense , then it'd be useless for anything but tank healing. How much clearer can they make it? Do you need him to type "bubble(s)"? It was very clear how it was going to work from the tooltip alone, the only thing we couldn't reasonably assume being the duriation of the shield and that it wouldn't activate if no actual healing was done.
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#40 Denrire


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Posted 06 May 2009 - 01:29 AM

then it'd be useless for anything but tank healing.

DUH. From GC

If it helps to explain it, the blessing is triggered by healing being done. If you cast a heal on a fully-healed target, you are doing no healing. The bubble itself is triggered by a heal spell being cast. The proc then looks for how much your spell would heal and makes a bubble of 15% of that number. The amount actually healed by the spell isn't a factor for purposes of the bubble. That is why we tried to explain that hots that tick but don't heal cannot cause the blessing on you (the healer) but can contribute to the bubble on the target.

If the bubble goes down (because it took enough damage or 8 sec have elapsed), then you next heal will cause another bubble for as long as the blessing lasts (which is 15 sec).

that's a lot of singularity in his writing.

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