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#41 Torael_7

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 09:54 PM

Without the max improved SnD, you end up dropping into regular mode for a couple of hits or having to pop SnD a little early if you get a backstab dodged, parried(gotta love that), or blocked(also gotta love that - Huhuran can fuck herself for having a small enough model that standing "behind" her triggers the exemption in the code that pretends backstab is coming from the front). However, unless you get a really unlucky string you don't have that problem with 3/3, and that's why I want it back - those little gaps are bad.

Oh. So, with 3/3 Imp SnD what's the "ideal" rotation?

#42 Wodin

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 10:16 PM

If everything goes perfectly you can throw a 1pt rupture in after the Slice and Dice. Realistically, the last point gives you breathing room to have the boss dodge your attacks and/or let one more energy tick happen to get an extra combo point.

#43 Pizzarino

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 11:00 PM

As for +5, it's on the pugio because it's the second-best mainhand enchant for a dagger, and I don't want to burn the last two orbs I've got saved up till I get a C'thun weapon(which is admittedly a long ways off).

How do you figure crusader is better than the other MH enchants? I haven't had crusader on a dagger since I had a heartseeker.

#44 Wodin

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 11:30 PM

There was a big thread in the rogue forums running through the theory, but the nuts and bolts are that over a long fight, the 100AP from crusader will be active for a significant enough portion of the time to outdamage other enchants, due to the nature of the 100AP being magnified in both MH, OH, and special attacks.


http://forums.worldo...mp=1#post933318

is the thread involved, and the results were compiled into a spreadsheet by Kalman(who's one of the better mechanics guys out there).

http://www.radiation...wow/enchant.xls

You can look at the formulae he's using to calculate the values in the cells.


#45 tenarius

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 05:29 AM

If everything goes perfectly you can throw a 1pt rupture in after the Slice and Dice. Realistically, the last point gives you breathing room to have the boss dodge your attacks and/or let one more energy tick happen to get an extra combo point.

Two more questions, Wodin.

One - why would you spend 25 energy on Rupture at a 60% chance for the CP back and 20% chance of it being free? Would it not be better to preserve the energy and point for a rainy day, as it were, where you have multiple parries/dodges in a row, to keep the 30% IAS flowing? Perhaps I'm not arriving at the same ideal skill rotation as you are, or I'm missing something obvious about that Rupture, but a combo point and 25 energy seem like a bit of a waste to occupy a precious debuff slot and do some paltry damage.

Two - earlier in the thread you made reference to a DPBed special. I'm not familiar with that acronym - could you elaborate?

This thread deserves to be bumped over the other necromanced news item anyways!

#46 tenarius

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 05:41 AM

Oh, and that spreadsheet was sexy. Perhaps it's just me but there's a lot of satisfaction to be had from playing with formulae and numbers...

And as far as enchantments go, there's really no question that Crusader is the best enchant damagewise for combat rogues, even with conservative comparitive values between agility and AP. The healing from Crusader is also often ignored by rogues, which is odd considering the obsession people have with Stamina on PvE gear. On a long fight with periodic damage, Crusader's heal is fantastically useful - Golemagg, for example.

I think that Agility is superior for Seal Fate due to the heavy dependence on critical Eviscerates, however. But then, who uses Seal Fate anymore?

#47 Cayman

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 05:45 AM

earlier in the thread you made reference to a DPBed special. I'm not familiar with that acronym

D(odged) P(arried) B(locked)

Are the Twin Emps consistently buggy for horde, or does retrying the encounter give you a chance for a fair, bug-free fight?

Grats again guys - now alliance needs to catch up...
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#48 Cayman

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 05:53 AM

I think that Agility is superior for Seal Fate due to the heavy dependence on critical Eviscerates, however. But then, who uses Seal Fate anymore?

First off, a crit evis still only gives one combo point, even with SF. The finisher istelf doesn't generate a combo point, and as such isn't affected by SF. The talent that gives the combo point isn't a strike, per se, and is likewise unaffected by SF. If Evis and KS could give 2 combo points, SF would be a better stunlocking build than heavy subtlety, as opposed to the fairly even tradeoffs that the 4 or 5 main rogue builds currently have.

As far as who uses SF anymore, rogues who want almost as much DPS as combat daggers, but more PvP and solo power use SF. B)

(BTW, 15 agi has a couple externalities that aren't reflected in Kalman's calculations, but even without them, it's very close to +5 base.)
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#49 Wodin

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 06:19 AM

If everything goes perfectly you can throw a 1pt rupture in after the Slice and Dice. Realistically, the last point gives you breathing room to have the boss dodge your attacks and/or let one more energy tick happen to get an extra combo point.

Two more questions, Wodin.

One - why would you spend 25 energy on Rupture at a 60% chance for the CP back and 20% chance of it being free? Would it not be better to preserve the energy and point for a rainy day, as it were, where you have multiple parries/dodges in a row, to keep the 30% IAS flowing? Perhaps I'm not arriving at the same ideal skill rotation as you are, or I'm missing something obvious about that Rupture, but a combo point and 25 energy seem like a bit of a waste to occupy a precious debuff slot and do some paltry damage.

Well, the nice part is that even if you spend the point on the rupture, you can still get back to 5 CP before the slice and dice expires with 3/3. But yeah, the main reason I'm going back to 3/3 is for the ability to keep SnD up constantly, and most of the time it will be used for precisely that "rainy day" preservation.

There's actually a very interesting thread that explains how to model a rotation that perfectly preserves slice and dice, but it was pruned. :(

#50 decimus

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 06:28 AM

What the? Didn't Cayman get banned way back?

#51 Wubwub

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 03:59 PM

We unbanned him for not sucking. It's not like we can't reban him if he sucks again.

#52 Drauk

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 04:11 PM

The new combatstats that eliminated a bunch of information drives me up a wall

Hmm, what kind of information ?

Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.


#53 Bocheezu

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 02:30 PM

I hope no one gets upset for thread necromancy, but it sort of amazes me that people got this down under a week. We're starting to see the end of the tunnel (2, 5, 10, and 14% wipes) after a month of sacrificing ourselves to these guys. I think our kill time got streched out so long because we cycled in new people every day that'd never seen the encounter before, which, surprise, were the ones to die to blizzard/bugs the first time their side saw Vek'lor (no matter how much we stressed that you can't die to blizzards or bugs).

People have compared this fight to quite a few encounters. I've heard people say it reminds them of Vael or Firemaw, but for me personally this is exactly like Rag in a lot of ways. A long fight with a timer (albeit somewhat artificial in Rags case) where every single person must stay alive the whole way. You lose any type of character or class and you either won't have the tanking, healer mana or the dps to go the distance. You can tell in the first minute or two if you have a shot or not.

Also very positioning dependant. Against Rag, there are those spots that are jail if you get blasted into the lava, the same way a warlock can paint themselves into a corner against Twin Emps.

I will say that this fight can be very frustrating and unforgiving if you don't have everyone on the same page, but once things start to click and everyone's in a groove, it's a great feeling to keep going through transition after transition and you can take everything these guys are dishing out at you.

#54 Wodin

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 05:41 PM

The new combatstats that eliminated a bunch of information drives me up a wall

Hmm, what kind of information ?

They conflated miss/dodge/block/parry into just a hit% stat. Drove me up a wall and forced me to get recap.




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