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Feral Druid Discussion


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#21 XI-

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 04:24 AM

For bear tanking on the other hand, there's a really interesting thread comparing a warrior and druid using all "ideal" tanking gear that I found very interesting:

http://forums.worldo...mp=1#post744351

The basic summary is that druids are very comparable in tanking if both classes have their ideal sets of gear.

Well, comparable I suppose is a matter of opinion. I'd rather have 0% chance of my tank getting crit than the 4.5k armor, and 1k hp.

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#22 Chupa

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 05:43 AM

Dios, you look at it exactly opposite the way I do.

I like feral because I can contribute 300 dps or capable tanking to a raid with a very minimal impact on my healing ability. The utility is what I love so much. Healers/casters getting stomped? Bear-charge-taunt! Healing under control on trash? Cat form! Boss fight? Healbot! I also really enjoy LotP, and I know many DPS classes that enjoyed being in my group because of it. It's nice to bring more utility to a raid than just innervate.

I love, though, that feral druids are the ones who get made fun of for this, when shamans are practically equivalent. You have the Fjords who will tank anything they can, and the Relwin/Shabadus who love to do the dps, but, hey, they don't change forms in the prcess so who cares what they do, right? Why are druids expected to be nothing but healbots when the other hybrid class isn't held to the same standard? Why do we even have druids and shamans then, we should all be priests!

I love how we say lol beartank and then never actually try it, when most warriors prefer to do dps anyway and there is a large body of evidence that well-geared druids make good tanks. I love how I'm made to feel guilty every time I use cat form, even if we have plenty of healers. I love that I can do all this and still be an extremely capable healer, and yet still get made fun of regularly for doing so.

#23 diospadre

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 06:07 AM

You have the Fjords who will tank anything they can

Don't get me started on this.

As a warrior who enjoys tanking more than DPS it irritates me when a druid or shaman is actively fighting with me for aggro on a mob as it wastes both him and me. Bear form strikes me as something that is completely useless outside of the encounters that I listed, and saying "but we CAN tank 20mans" doesn't convince me when the real stretch of classes' merits is never in 20mans. The same goes for trash. If feral druids can shave 15 or 20 minutes off a raid's clear time that's cool, but how much time would they save a raid if they had no points in feral but went cat anyway? 10?

I think it's telling that when boss time comes around all the druids are healing away regardless of their talent specs because hey, if the raid wipes because there wasn't enough healing due to cats and bears running around there goes all that time that their extra dps had saved everyone.

I do think that just about every druid should have 11 points in prot, because seriously fuck not having intercept, but it would take a lot more than a crit aura and the ability to tank swarmguards to convince me that anything beyond those 11 wouldn't be better for the raid if they were put somewhere else.

And you shouldn't worry about being made fun of, hell we shit on our Prot warriors. however I do think that your healing abilities are what they are thanks to your above average skill as a healer and not your spec. I also don't mean to discount raids being more fun to you when you can go feral, which they obviously are.

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#24 Lord BEEF

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 06:32 AM

I think it's telling that when boss time comes around all the druids are healing away regardless of their talent specs because hey, if the raid wipes because there wasn't enough healing due to cats and bears running around there goes all that time that their extra dps had saved everyone.

Against bosses, everyone switches to what they can do best for that fight. It just happens that when you go through two raid dungeons that gear you up for a particular role you tend to be better at that, so it's no surprise that druids switch to healing mode against bosses.

However druids really shouldn't go into healing mode against all bosses. For example, as a full resto spec I really miss having feral talents against jindo, ebonroc and moam as the dps I deal there removes the need for much healing to be done.
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#25 Lord BEEF

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 06:56 AM

Well, comparable I suppose is a matter of opinion. I'd rather have 0% chance of my tank getting crit than the 4.5k armor, and 1k hp.

Well the whole idea is that you can live through crits much more than a warrior could.

Let's pretend there's a boss that does 10,000 damage before any armor. 15,000 on a crushing blow, and 20,000 on a crit.

A crit against the druid with the gear mentioned in that thread would be for 5572 damage, for 51% of his health. This would happen roughly 4% of the swings from the boss.

A crushing blow against a warrior with that gear would be for 4876, or 50% of his health. This would happen from roughly 15% of the attacks from the boss.

Warriors have higher overall mitigation for sure due to parry and block, but to assume "the bear will get crit and die" is just ignorance.
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#26 Torael_7

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 07:11 AM

Well, comparable I suppose is a matter of opinion.  I'd rather have 0% chance of my tank getting crit than the 4.5k armor, and 1k hp.

Well the whole idea is that you can live through crits much more than a warrior could.

Let's pretend there's a boss that does 10,000 damage before any armor. 15,000 on a crushing blow, and 20,000 on a crit.

A crit against the druid with the gear mentioned in that thread would be for 5572 damage, for 51% of his health. This would happen roughly 4% of the swings from the boss.

A crushing blow against a warrior with that gear would be for 4876, or 50% of his health. This would happen from roughly 15% of the attacks from the boss.

Warriors have higher overall mitigation for sure due to parry and block, but to assume "the bear will get crit and die" is just ignorance.

:huh:

Did you mix up the warrior and druid for some of that? Because it looks like the druid with 329 defense is getting crit 11% less often than the protection warrior with 442 defense...or am I just misunderstanding this fancy "tanking" buisiness?

#27 diospadre

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 07:29 AM

Crushing blows have a flat 15% rate. Crits have a rate that varies with a mob's stats and the tank's defense.

#28 Lord BEEF

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 07:31 AM

Note where I stated crushing blows and where I stated crits. Those maths are off the assumption that the warrior is getting crit 0% of the time, which is good for him since they would take off 67% of his health.

It would actually play out that the warrior gets crushing blows 15% of the time (not a damn thing anyone can do about that), and a druid would get crit 4% of the timeand crushed 15% of the time. A crushing blow in this case would take off 38.5% of the druid's health.
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#29 Torael_7

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 07:54 AM

Ahhhh. Okay. So, yeah, I just dont understand this fancy tanking stuff then. Thanks for the clarification.

#30 Sebudai

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 10:00 AM

We have 6 druids and 3(maybe 4) are heavy feral specs. We use them a lot.

We rely on bear form druids quite a bit with our current Prophet Skeram, Fankriss, and Nefarian strats. We found having extra tanks for Skeram really helped us. We'll use up to nine total 'tanks' on that encounter if we have enough warriors/druids. On Fankriss we don't use the fear bomb zerg strat(anymore), so our feral druids tank bugs throughout the whole fight, and they are arguably better at doing than a warrior would be. On Nefarian we use bear form druids in stage one to help control mobs on the side that AE's(we AE one side and focus fire the other).

We've also used them on the royals, the drakes in BWL, Sartura, and various trash pulls when we don't have our usual warrior turnout.

I prefer to have a nice mix of restoration and feral spec druids. I think our guild is better off that way. I think it is a valuable tool for raids, and entirely different than bringing elemental spec shaman, or shadow spec priests.


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#31 Gankin

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 03:06 PM

I can't believe there are guilds that have enough druids to even consider "letting them" go Feral. Our timeline usually follows this pattern...

Day 1: We recruit Druid.
Day 2: We raid MC and he gets 6/8 Cenarion and his tier 2 pants on his first trip.
Day 3: We raid BWL and he gets 4 more pieces of tier 2.
Day 4: He permanently quits the game because he got 7 pieces of loot on his first raid and only 4 on his second raid. Fuck only getting 4 upgrades in 1 day!

I think we had 2 druids present on our first Nefarion kill. We had 1 druid on our most recent Onyxia kill. 2 Druids on our last MC run. Any guilds want to trade a druid or 2 for some well-geared hunters?

#32 Taeme

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 03:19 PM

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#33 Praetorian

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 03:27 PM

This discussion seems to have two parallel tracks.

1) Should druids just be healbots?

2) Viability of a true "feral spec" in raids.

The answer to #1 is a no. I think Feral Charge is incredibly useful, and it figures prominently in many of the examples listed above. But really, to be a decent bear tank situationally, you just need 11 points in Feral. Yes, the extra stamina and threat generation are crucial, but I'm still skeptical about the benefits of using a druid in a primary tank role where they need to hold aggro over others or survive massive burst damage. I'm not disputing that a 30-feral druid can do this very well. I know a druid absolutely could be a great Broodlord tank, and I know guilds have used druids to tank Vael at times. But there's a difference between being viable and being optimal. It is optimal to use bears to help offtank certain trash or boss adds in many situations. I can't think of a fight in which it is optimal to have your druid tank instead of a warrior (maybe Jin'do I guess? I don't know).

I really don't think catform DPS is a factor in any important raid setting. Sure, it speeds up MC trash farming and such, but I can't really think of very many situations in AQ where it makes sense, for example.

In any event, I think Resto/Feral is probably the best raiding build currently, and I don't understand people who look at high-AC sta/str/agi leather as garbage. It's situational gear, the same way DPS plate isn't garbage to a tank. Sure, you're probably wearing Wrath most of the time, but sometimes even the guild MT needs to put out some real damage. Similarly, there are times where you really have enough healing and just need more tanks to help control stuff, stun stuff, interrupt spells, etc.. In those situations, why wouldn't you want your druids to have epic gear for the task instead of shitty instance blues? Genesis from AQ40 will be great for this just for its incredibly hybridity. It's a set you can legitimately use both in bear and caster form, which is nice.

#34 Elfan

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 03:42 PM

I can't think of a fight in which it is optimal to have your druid tank instead of a warrior (maybe Jin'do I guess? I don't know).

We had a lot of trouble getting Jin'do down, but when we tried having a druid tank it became "easymode". I know it is an isolated example but it is one where the druid tank is optimal; and for guilds whose first raid progress was ZG I'm sure it matters a lot more than it did to those doing the instance in all epics the first time.

#35 Kaubel

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 03:51 PM

I'm with Chupid on this and think people are being too narrow-minded.

None of us will dispute that warriors are better tanks. None of us will dispute that rogues are better for sustainable DPS. Why people keep dwelling on those points is beyond me. We're a utility class and are proud of the fact. If healing is what's called for, that's what we'll do to the best of our abilities. If you need an extra tank, we'll do that too. Regarding catform, would you rather us sit there and toss the occasional (and ultimately unnecessary) heals to top people off or would you like things to die a tad sooner? Over the length of an entire raid, a few extra seconds here and there ends up saving you a good chunk of time. And with priests soon getting new and better talents, there's going to be even more cases where there's an overabundance of healing during trash pulls.

A druid isn't as good as a warrior/priest/rogue but is still worth 1.5x as much based simply on his/her ability to fill in the blanks. In other words, the "People will just take an extra <insert class here> instead of a druid" folks can bite my ass.

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#36 Elerion

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 03:53 PM

It's druids against the world!

#37 Praetorian

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 04:02 PM

Just for the sake of theorycraft, here's how I'd probably spec if I were a druid:

http://www.worldofwa...555503105315001

I don't think you need the threat-generation talents unless you are MTing a raid mob/boss, and while HotW is awesome, I don't think you need it unless you are tanking a full-fledged raid boss like Broodlord. This build contemplates the readily available use of bearform for control, while still retaining significant healing capacity.

#38 Brilliance

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 04:17 PM

I personally dont see a problem with a feral druid, as long as they know when they can be the cat or the bear. In our raids (We have 4 prot warriors, and 1 lol dps warrior (he tanks when needed to)) We dont need a bear to pick up the trash after Twin Emps, nor do we need extra dps to kill the Mind Slayers. So we dont have ferals, so I dont have any personal experiance with them in a raid (outside an MC raid once...)

What WOULD piss me off is to watch someone get Mindflayed by a Mindslayer and then watch the druid sit in cat / bear form doing something useless while someone gets their face raped off. (true you could blame the other healers, but cmon, if your past the twin emps, you should have SOME sort of raiding experiance)

Yes, Druids can be good tanks / dps (you can argue it, I wont take a stance on it though) but you have to know when to heal. And you shouldnt run around with a 2.5k mana pool also.



#39 Praetorian

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 04:30 PM

Well, what you describe isn't being a "feral druid," it's being a "fucking retard."

Our "lol feral druid" has 6/8 Stormrage (three of the Resto-heavy druids have 8/8 and he's passed a fair bit of it to them), doesn't walk around in catform, and is as reliable a healer as anyone else in the guild when push comes to shove, because he's a good player.

Don't let player skill cloud your ability to analyze questions of theoretical mechanics. Not every shadow priest is a faggot who sits in Shadowform mindflaying while your tank dies or half your BGs group is getting debuffed, nor is every feral druid an idiot who rarely ever leaves catform and has 2500 mana when he does. Those players would suck and wouldn't be worth bringing along on a raid if they were 51 Restoration. Assume a baseline of competence and intelligence, and argue from there.

To use the post-Emps trash, we find it useful to assign a bearform druid to each of the Slayers on multi-Slayer pulls, to keep them controlled and away from the raid. As soon as the Mindslayers are dead, we the druids can leave bearform and heal the rest of the way as we clean up. The damage to the raid they prevent by keeping the Slayers controlled exceeds the damage they could repair were they in caster form. Seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me.

#40 Brilliance

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 04:45 PM

Well put. Like I said, the only feral druids I have seen, on my server, are all retards.

I will agree, if the player is competant... no real problem with feral druids. Idiots though make the spec seem like it gimps a raid.




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