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DPS Warriors in BWL


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#1 TheCrunkOne

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 04:32 PM

Well, I suspect tension is starting to build up among some of the warriors, who realize we dont tank/use defensive stance, in BWL enough to sometimes feel Defiance is actually worth it...for a guild that's LEARNING, BWL(on Firemaw now)

How many DPS warriors would it be worth it to take into there? Seems like, maybe 3 tanks with at least Defiance, and 3 DPS warriors would be the ideal(we always have a crapload of warriors there because we basically have shit for druids). And we're having pretty crappy luck weapon wise too, only Deathbringer and Maladath the guild has ever gotten has gone to the same warrior(he DualWields em :P) and we have had 0 Untameds, 0 Spinal Reapers, 0 Bonereavers, and 0 Eyes(everyone has an OEB or Zin'Rokh, heh, we're actually sharing OEBS now...). Even with what we've got, the warriors generally fill the top 10, with one mage, hunter, and rogue at the very top....

Just curious on EJ's position.

#2 Praetorian

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 04:37 PM

Given a warrior pool of unspecified size, I think that ideally you want 15% of the to be protection, 25% of them to be Arms/Fury or Fury/Arms, and 50% of them to be 31/5/15 or 31/4/16 or some variant thereupon.

I'm a big fan of the 31/5/15 archetype for raiding. You can do good DPS and you can still get most of the best Prot talents. Giving up Enrage really isn't the end of the world.

#3 subscience

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 04:43 PM

Given a warrior pool of unspecified size, I think that ideally you want 15% of the to be protection, 25% of them to be Arms/Fury or Fury/Arms, and 50% of them to be 31/5/15 or 31/4/16 or some variant thereupon.

I'm a big fan of the 31/5/15 archetype for raiding. You can do good DPS and you can still get most of the best Prot talents. Giving up Enrage really isn't the end of the world.

In terms of pure PvE Warrior talents, Fury seems to offer a very large increase to overall DPS in raids over Arms (as Aedak & co. will attest). Personally, all our Warriors were Arms and they'd consistantly rank very high on damage charts (heck, one Warrior with a goddamn Doomsaw would consistently destroy the damage charts in MC).

Of course, like you said, you'd want a mix of Protection / MS / and Fury Warriors to have a well rounded set of skills for your raid.

In my opinion, a Fury/15Prot build would work extremely well in terms of all-around utility as a PvE Warrior, especially given some of the Fury talents which not only benefit DDing, but also tanking.

Edit- Forgot to mention that I'm speaking specifically of 2H Fury builds.

#4 TheCrunkOne

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 04:48 PM

Yeah, Im the Arms Hybid right now(31/15/5), but i've been longing to return to Fury/Arms Spec(went all the way to 60 and spent some time in MC rockin a Thrash Blade and a Dire Nail with that build :( )

Our main tank is protection, and every other warrior except the guy with Deathbringer/Maladath(He's Fury/Arms) is Arms Hybrid(either Sword or Mace Spec since we have no Spinal Reapers :P)

And we generally end up with 7 warriors in BWL for that matter...



#5 Brilliance

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 04:51 PM

If your learning? None.

#6 norg

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 05:05 PM

We tend to have two who are heavy-ish prot, one-two 31-5-15, two-three DW Fury warriors and an MS warrior. I think.

#7 Tehax

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 05:28 PM

For BWL I would say you only really need one solid tank - full protection is obviously ideal, but 15-16 points in prot works perfectly fine.
More tank type warriors will make Broodlord and Vael go smoother, though, as well as the three wyrmguard trash pulls and time lapse Chromaggus.

#8 KapPa

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 06:46 PM

In my opinion, a Fury/15Prot build would work extremely well in terms of all-around utility as a PvE Warrior, especially given some of the Fury talents which not only benefit DDing, but also tanking.

Tactical Mastery.

#9 subscience

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 07:01 PM

^ Well, I meant a Fury-heavy build. Not all points in Fury and Protection.

But as a PvE DD Warrior, would Tactical Mastery still be useful? Hm.

#10 Lord BEEF

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 07:07 PM

I'd say in any given raid you'd want at most one or two warriors who DONT have mortal strike or bloodthirst.

Even in fights where warriors are tanking, most of them won't be tanking the entire time and it's advantageous to be able to have them deal significant damage when they're not being beat on.
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#11 Elerion

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 07:13 PM

I'd argue that the absolute best tank for most BWL encounters is a Defiance - Imp HS - Flurry build, due to the amazing aggro generation. It does require good weapons to be effective. Those builds can deal acceptable damage when not tanking as well. You definitely want at least one, probably 2 MS warriors for Ebonroc. You might also want one or two heavy duty prot warriors.

If I was to create my 40-man "lets kill the whole game" raid party from scratch, it would include something like:
2 Defiance/Flurry warriors
2 MS warriors
1-2 Prot warriors

#12 diospadre

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 07:22 PM

Defiance isn't even close to required for any of the fights in the game, what benefit would a Fury/Prot build be to the raid?

#13 Elerion

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 07:27 PM

Better aggro generation allowing for more aggressive dps. In the learning phase, aggro is probably the main obstacle through almost every encounter in BWL. Meditation isn't required for any fight in the game either, but it does make endurance based fights easier. Tons of prot points isn't required for any fight in the game, but it does make high-output bosses easier. Having the full range of warrior specs available increases the versatility of the raid.

#14 diospadre

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 07:49 PM

During all the learning attempts I have experienced, the limiting factor has been keeping the tank and everyone else alive, not dps (with the exception of pre-deaggro nerf broodlord). In learning situations the raid is benefited more by a tanks that can stay alive than those that generate 5-10% more threat.

Sure people died after pulling aggro on Vael, Firemaw, etc., but once efficient strategies were worked out to counteract their deaggro abilities the aggro plateaus they presented stopped being a real issue.

#15 moz

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 07:51 PM

:rolleyes:

I'm not sure what learning attempts you experienced, but I can assure you that the primary issue on Vael, Firemaw (pre-nerf was even more fun), Ebonroc and Flamegor wasn't keeping the tank alive (once appropriate positioning was discovered). Broodlord was a bit of both.

I agree with Elerion that having a cross-section of specs increases the versatility of the raid. At this stage, BWL is a moot point but when learning a zone it's not really what you can do without but what you can do with the highest efficiency -- and I'm a firm believer in trying to build your raid group around this rather than "lol we can clear BWL with all our warriors speccing 31/20 learn2play".

Sure, we manage fine right now with the encounters in the game, but X% more threat means more DPS for the raid, shorter fights and a bit of headroom in case something goes wrong. Again not required, but certainly helpful.

#16 Wubwub

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 08:02 PM

My warrior is 17/34/0 ;_; He just likes to hit things ok?

#17 Breaksmith

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 08:20 PM

We tend to have two who are heavy-ish prot, one-two 31-5-15, two-three DW Fury warriors and an MS warrior. I think.

Yeah, that's about right. Maybe two MS warriors.

The answer to these questions (shadow priests/feral druids etc) is always the same - have a few of each.

#18 Elerion

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 08:27 PM

Comparing tank builds with various strengths to healer builds in which one is strictly superior is apples vs oranges.

#19 Flavahbeast

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 08:28 PM

In terms of pure PvE Warrior talents, Fury seems to offer a very large increase to overall DPS in raids over Arms (as Aedak & co. will attest). Personally, all our Warriors were Arms and they'd consistantly rank very high on damage charts (heck, one Warrior with a goddamn Doomsaw would consistently destroy the damage charts in MC).

Windfury totem muddles that a bit - if you don't have access to windfury, fury is the king of single target DPS. with windfury they're about even, and if there are multiple targets and you have windfury down then arms is significantly better

fury would probably be best since it excels at single target DPS in any situation, except that many bosses like Ebonroc are made easier if you have access to mortal strike

#20 Lord BEEF

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 08:34 PM

Yeah I wouldn't want less than 2 MS warriors on any given raid. For some fights (well mainly just ebonroc, lethon, and kazzak if you're being griefed), the debuff essentially makes an MS warrior "do more damage" than any other party member, and it's good to have two since warriors can't get to 100% hit rate like hunters can since their shit can be dodged.
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