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DPS Warriors in BWL


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#21 bartolimu

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 09:31 PM

My warrior is 17/34/0 ;_; He just likes to hit things ok?

My warrior is 15/3/33 :socar:

#22 diospadre

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 09:38 PM

My warrior is 17/34/0 ;_; He just likes to hit things ok?

My warrior is 15/3/33 :socar:

Seriously what the hell is wrong with you

#23 Gankin

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 09:40 PM

While the general opinion is Protection warriors are better for the raid's learning phase, I find it rather hard to believe. Is agro really that big of an issue to completely ruin your Warriors' time in WoW? The only encounter that makes me wish I had defiance is Onyxia. As our casters get better geared, it seems to be harder and harder to pull her in for phase 3. They are so used to me having agro on the transition that they just stand there like idiots when they have agro and get the entire side wiped out.

Agro is even less of an issue with the new AQ books. Last week on Broodlord, I held agro from 100 to 60%, lost it to another warrior until 50%, then picked agro back up at and ran with it until 20% when I died to the ol' MS/Blastwave/Crushing Blow combo (1 piece of Wrath ftl.) And that's with only the new rank of Revenge. Of course more tests need to be done, but when the warriors get the new revenge one week, then the next time they face the most agro-sensitive boss in the game and only use 2 tanks instead of the normal 5/6, that's good enough evidence for me.

I was protection spec for months and it put me into the infamous "holy priest depression" where I only logged on for raids. Grinding was pathetic and in PvP I was the guard-the-farm-bitch. I'm all for Blizzard buffing the Prot tree and giving Warriors an excuse to spec it again, but I just don't see the point in speccing protection at this time besides the viability of Conc blow on 1 (2?) fights in AQ.

#24 moz

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 10:06 PM

I don't think you are getting the point; if you don't find value in speccing a particular way, don't do it, if you'd rather have fun in PvP instead of putting points in protection -- go ahead and do that too. If you are focused on progression and getting the most out of your raid group you would be foolish not to have at least a couple of warriors (if not more) with defiance. That said, if you couldn't do your job competantly sans-defiance, it is probably reasonable to expect that those extra points won't do you any good either -- it's not make or break but like I mentioned previously, a helpful addition for the overall efficiency of the raid.

We don't force anyone to spec a particular way, so 'ruining your time in WoW' would be self-inflicted. People have different priorities and spec accordingly -- whether or not you think points in protection are necessary doesn't override the fact that it provides a benefit to both aggro generation and mitigation. Whether or not that benefit is worthwhile is up to the individual -- but I believe it's significantly useful to the raid group, particularly while trying to get through new content.

Talking about BWL months after it's been on farm status for most guilds and onyxia (:lol:) don't quite have the same effect as when guilds tackled BWL right out of MC. I quite enjoy these types of threads where members from said guilds come out and say that protection is worthless after having the encounters down for quite some time. I wonder if they were singing the same tune after wiping to Vael over and over when BWL opened. Threat generation isn't scaling in comparison to the boosts DPS classes (particularly casters) are enjoying, so there is something to be said about getting every little advantage you can.

#25 Tehax

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 10:17 PM

I am not a huge fan of defiance since I can hold aggro fine without it, but toughness is a huge boost to mitigation and last stand is often the difference between a kill and a wipe.

I like pvp and enrage was fun, but some fights in AQ would really suck without the 15 points in protection I have now.

#26 Breaksmith

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 10:19 PM

Comparing tank builds with various strengths to healer builds in which one is strictly superior is apples vs oranges.

I'm not comparing healing or any other sort of builds. I'm just saying that more utility > less utility. To a point, obviously, but having one of every build then a few more of the strongest type is almost always the best way to go.

Ironically, in the case of warriors, the strongest type is probably the 31/5/15, multi- purpose spec but hey, there you go.

#27 Hamlet

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 10:26 PM

I think you have to remember that the comments from EJ are coming from the perspective of a very tight and experienced raid group. They could have everyone in the raid speccing in whatever arbitrary fashion and still do the content just fine.

As far as spec, don't worry about it. Even for learning brand new content, if some guy wants to be 31/5/15, don't pressure him to go full protection. I only say that because a lot of inexperienced guilds do this, and I think it's a sign of an uninformed raid leader who thinks that making his tanks spec protection is just "something good guilds are supposed to do."

What's more important than spec, however, is knowing their role in the raid. When you're learning content, and anything can happen at any time, you need someone who can pin down a stray mob more than you need someone who can add a bit of DPS. When my guild first walked into AQ yesterday and saw 4 Anubisath Defenders, I put all the Warriors and Feral Druids in tanking gear. Sure enough, the third time we fought them, we saw MS for the first time, lost people, and the bear saved the raid. I'm sure we won't be doing that once we're comfortable with the zone.

Warriors who only know how beat things with two-handers are eight cents a dozen. As long as even the more DPS-oriented Warriors who you recruit to your guild know when pulling out a shield is the most useful things to do, you're fine.

#28 XI-

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 10:42 PM

Well, I suspect tension is starting to build up among some of the warriors, who realize we dont tank/use defensive stance, in BWL enough to sometimes feel Defiance is actually worth it...for a guild that's LEARNING, BWL(on Firemaw now)

How many DPS warriors would it be worth it to take into there? Seems like, maybe 3 tanks with at least Defiance, and 3 DPS warriors would be the ideal(we always have a crapload of warriors there because we basically have shit for druids). And we're having pretty crappy luck weapon wise too, only Deathbringer and Maladath the guild has ever gotten has gone to the same warrior(he DualWields em :P) and we have had 0 Untameds, 0 Spinal Reapers, 0 Bonereavers, and 0 Eyes(everyone has an OEB or Zin'Rokh, heh, we're actually sharing OEBS now...). Even with what we've got, the warriors generally fill the top 10, with one mage, hunter, and rogue at the very top....

Just curious on EJ's position.

Spec doesn't matter, gear matters. If you're talking about people in full out DPS gear. I'd bring 0 when learning. A "DPS" warrior will inevitably pull aggro, without defense gear they will die. And during progress losing the tanks before them is a frequent occurance.

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#29 moz

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 10:53 PM

Maybe if your tank had defiance your DPS warriors wouldn't die :P

Seriously though, it's a complicated question to which there is no general answer. To address the OP, only you will know what your raid group is capable of, how hard your DPS can push it and to what level your healers are comfortable healing your tank(s). In general, if you have 2-3 warriors with defiance in BWL I think you'll be fine to start with. Concentrate on execution, getting them geared up and finding your comfortzones as a raid group while learning the encounters.

#30 XI-

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 11:06 PM

Maybe if your tank had defiance your DPS warriors wouldn't die :P

Seriously though, it's a complicated question to which there is no general answer. To address the OP, only you will know what your raid group is capable of, how hard your DPS can push it and to what level your healers are comfortable healing your tank(s). In general, if you have 2-3 warriors with defiance in BWL I think you'll be fine to start with. Concentrate on execution, getting them geared up and finding your comfortzones as a raid group while learning the encounters.

We have 3 full prot tanks :P. Any class without a de-aggro will inevitably get to tank, if a tank dies, which happens often during progress.

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#31 Gankin

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 03:40 PM

Talking about BWL months after it's been on farm status for most guilds and onyxia (:lol:) don't quite have the same effect as when guilds tackled BWL right out of MC. I quite enjoy these types of threads where members from said guilds come out and say that protection is worthless after having the encounters down for quite some time. I wonder if they were singing the same tune after wiping to Vael over and over when BWL opened. Threat generation isn't scaling in comparison to the boosts DPS classes (particularly casters) are enjoying, so there is something to be said about getting every little advantage you can.

While I agree that spec really depends on the player, keep in mind that while you've been clearing BWL for months, we killed Nefarion for the first time last week. EJ had cleared BWL before we even attempted Razorgore for the first time. Encounters you could do with your eyes closed are still very new to us. Hell, we haven't even seen a Time Lapse Chromag yet. I personally find Last Stand to be twice as important as Defiance, but the topic seems to be focusing on Defiance as the end-all be-all talent in the Prot tree.

While I understand the merits of the x/x/15 spec, x/x/31 seems like a waste to me. Most of the abilities in the 4th and 5th tier are mostly useless in todays game such as Imp Shield Bash, Imp Revenge, Imp Taunt, and Imp Disarm. Concussion Blow (while useful for Battleguard Sat) is also useless against pretty much every mob outside of Dire Maul. Shield Slam does not scale at all and isn't even the best threat for your rage.

It's not that I hate the idea of Protection Warriors. I just hate the idea that a x/x/15 Warrior is just as good a tank as a x/x/31 Warrior. If they stuck some +hp talents, +resists talents, and increased the efficiency/scalability of Shield Slam, I'd be all over Protection again. Until then, I find 31/5/15 far more useful to the raid than 15/5/31 is.

PS: We don't actually wipe on Onyxia. I just hate the phase 3 transition.

#32 Elerion

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 04:30 PM

Our "defiance/hs/flurry" warriors all have last stand. It's just easier to call it a defiance build, since that+mitigation is what they were originally hitting the tree for.

#33 Ultramax

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 07:13 PM

^ Well, I meant a Fury-heavy build. Not all points in Fury and Protection.

But as a PvE DD Warrior, would Tactical Mastery still be useful? Hm.

I tried a build without tac mastery when AQ40 was on test.

Then we fought Sartura.

#34 JIHAD JERRY

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 02:55 AM

i didnt read this thread but i just wanted to say your name is off the hook.. cant believe i didnt think of it so props..

peace out
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#35 ex-sheepy

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 03:19 AM

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#36 Guest_Amberyl_*

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Posted 07 March 2006 - 02:21 PM

I don't think you are getting the point; if you don't find value in speccing a particular way, don't do it, if you'd rather have fun in PvP instead of putting points in protection -- go ahead and do that too. If you are focused on progression and getting the most out of your raid group you would be foolish not to have at least a couple of warriors (if not more) with defiance. That said, if you couldn't do your job competantly sans-defiance, it is probably reasonable to expect that those extra points won't do you any good either -- it's not make or break but like I mentioned previously, a helpful addition for the overall efficiency of the raid.

We don't force anyone to spec a particular way, so 'ruining your time in WoW' would be self-inflicted. People have different priorities and spec accordingly -- whether or not you think points in protection are necessary doesn't override the fact that it provides a benefit to both aggro generation and mitigation. Whether or not that benefit is worthwhile is up to the individual -- but I believe it's significantly useful to the raid group, particularly while trying to get through new content.

Talking about BWL months after it's been on farm status for most guilds and onyxia (:lol:) don't quite have the same effect as when guilds tackled BWL right out of MC. I quite enjoy these types of threads where members from said guilds come out and say that protection is worthless after having the encounters down for quite some time. I wonder if they were singing the same tune after wiping to Vael over and over when BWL opened. Threat generation isn't scaling in comparison to the boosts DPS classes (particularly casters) are enjoying, so there is something to be said about getting every little advantage you can.

i couldn't agree more with this post, particularly: "Threat generation isn't scaling in comparison to the boosts DPS classes (particularly casters) are enjoying, so there is something to be said about getting every little advantage you can."

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#37 Guest_Amberyl_*

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Posted 07 March 2006 - 02:45 PM

tried to edit my last post to add this next part, but could not, anyhow -

nowadays i can often be heard talking about how rogues and casters are getting these huge upgrades to their DPS but my threat generation isn't going anywhere. i take that back, the new ranks of revenge and HS from AQ20 *probably* help a good deal (i wonder how much more innate threat, if any, they generate, aside from the damage increase?) but in some ways this only serves to illustrate the problem. warrior agro is so heavily dependant on innate threat generated from abilities/stance/talents that it remains relatively static despite gear upgrades. of course warriors can pick up weapons to increase their DPS, but these aren't *tanking* weapons (aside from maybe Thunderfury). right now this isn't really a problem but i wonder what Blizzard will do to address this in the future - keep providing new ranks of revenge and HS?

#38 Brilliance

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Posted 07 March 2006 - 03:38 PM

Or your dps could not be morons and learn how to control their agro?

(Took me a while to learn that >.>)

#39 Gankin

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Posted 07 March 2006 - 04:10 PM

tried to edit my last post to add this next part, but could not, anyhow -

nowadays i can often be heard talking about how rogues and casters are getting these huge upgrades to their DPS but my threat generation isn't going anywhere. i take that back, the new ranks of revenge and HS from AQ20 *probably* help a good deal (i wonder how much more innate threat, if any, they generate, aside from the damage increase?) but in some ways this only serves to illustrate the problem. warrior agro is so heavily dependant on innate threat generated from abilities/stance/talents that it remains relatively static despite gear upgrades. of course warriors can pick up weapons to increase their DPS, but these aren't *tanking* weapons (aside from maybe Thunderfury). right now this isn't really a problem but i wonder what Blizzard will do to address this in the future - keep providing new ranks of revenge and HS?

It doesn't help that the average physical DPS gets 1-2 upgraded weapons per raid zone. My guild went fresh into MC/Onyxia in nearly all blues/BoE epics. The first time I tanked in the Majordomo encounter, I had a Quel'Serrar. When I tanked Ragnaros, I had a Quel'Serrar. Off to BWL and I tanked Nefarion with... you guessed it... A Quel'Serrar. All the shit from AQ has been data-mined and *gasp* I will be tanking C'Thun with a fucking Quel'Serrar.

Why do the Warrior 2 handers from Lucifron to C'Thun go Blue -> OEB -> Bonereavers/Spinal Reaper -> UTB/DTC -> Asscandy -> Dark Edge of Insanity? Meanwhile the tanking weapons go Blue -> Quel'Serrar. While agro hasn't become an issue for us yet, eventually DPS weapons will scale beyond agro limits. If he really wanted to and had the right buffs, our guild's Sulfuras Warrior can challenge me for agro. What happens when the next zone comes along and releases a 95 dps Polearm while I still can't upgrade my Quel'Serrar? Fuck new ranks of skills. Give me a reasonable shot to get a new fucking weapon after 4 raid zones. Btw 0 bindings in over half a year of farming MC, so the Thunderfury argument is moot.

#40 Praetorian

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Posted 07 March 2006 - 04:16 PM

I will be tanking C'Thun with a fucking Quel'Serrar.

No you won't. :D

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Anyway, this is a better tank weapon than Quel. For tanking AQ, Spineshatter is also better. AQ is decidedly not BWL when it comes to being a tank. I can't recall a wipe that occurred due to a warrior losing aggro.




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