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Moonkin Beginner Guide (obsolete; use the TTT article now (in my sig))


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#21 Knoway

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:09 PM

I should think all 25 man raids have one draenei, or more, in them. Shamans after all can only be draenei alliance side.


Heroic presence is not raid wide, it only affects said Draenei's party. I suppose saying that raid comp doesn't matter is technically true, but it does matter which group you are placed in.

#22 Latas

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:13 PM

I'm finding that unless I pick sub-optimal gear in rawr, that a solar rotation starts pulling ahead and ends up way ahead of a lunar rotation once you obtain 2t8. Now if others are finding the same thing I think it would probably be worth noting in this guide. The difference of solar and lunar in my planned set is 93 dps with (raidbuffed) 3097sp, 262 hit rating, 706 crit rating and 455 haste rating.

#23 Hamlet

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:31 PM

I'm finding that unless I pick sub-optimal gear in rawr, that a solar rotation starts pulling ahead and ends up way ahead of a lunar rotation once you obtain 2t8. Now if others are finding the same thing I think it would probably be worth noting in this guide. The difference of solar and lunar in my planned set is 93 dps with (raidbuffed) 3097sp, 262 hit rating, 706 crit rating and 455 haste rating.


I'm not getting the same result in WrathCalcs though, and with WC, unlike Rawr, I know exactly what's going on internally. I think that in general (not just for the purposes of this post), we need much more solid theorycraft on Solar rotations. There's a lot of discussion on the all the other Moonkin threads on this forum, but very little math at the necessary level of detail.

For purposes of this post, Solar rotations are tougher to play due to latency, it's unclear whether they'll ever be optimal (especially for people who aren't in great gear), and adding them would complicate things a good bit (I'd basically need a alternative Solar version of the entire Spell Rotation and Gear sections).

#24 bridy187

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 07:21 PM

I am sure this is listed somewhere (preparing for inc flames), but is it true that there is a "haste cap?" I have heard of such a thing but I haven't seen any concrete details about if a cap exists and what it is.

When I look around at other boomkins on the threads I see some people with much lower haste than me and some with much higher. Does anyone have a good idea of what a "solid" amount of haste is? Not to make it personal, but mine is around 380 currently and I feel like that seems fairly high when I'm raiding (i.e. my owl casts stuff pretty fast). However, I see some people with 500-600 and I feel like I need to get way more.

Any elaboration on haste from some of the other boomkins out there who know more about the numbers would be greatly appreciated.

Also, great job on this guide! I always loved the old "Boomkin for dummies" guide and am glad to see someone taking over updating boomkin strategy moving forward!

#25 Eilt

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 07:59 PM

The cap for haste would be when your spells all hit the 1 second GCD. No spell, for us, can have lower than a 1 second GCD so it would be silly to stack it further than that.

However, if you use a lunar rotation you will not gather enough haste to reach this number so it is not really a concern.

With normal talents/raid buffs and decent NG uptime, at around 400 haste your Wrath cast time is at about a 1 second cast time meaning stacking haste further than this point would cause clipping the GCD.

#26 SolanisRWO

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 08:55 PM

I personally have found that a Solar Eclipse generates better DPS for me.

The rotation I use is

Starfire until Eclipse procs then Wrath until the end of Eclipse then Starfire during Eclipse cooldown and continuing to cast Starfire until Eclipse procs again.


As far as the haste cap as it's been mentioned Wrath hits the GCD fully raid buffed around 400 Haste, but Starfire cannot be haste capped with the currently available gear (I think it's at around 5000 haste) so if you're using a Lunar Eclipse rotation then more haste is a good thing provided you don't give up too many other stats in acquiring it.

#27 Whitemane

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 01:09 AM

Starfire until Eclipse procs then Wrath until the end of Eclipse then Starfire during Eclipse cooldown and continuing to cast Starfire until Eclipse procs again.


Why would you not continue to spam wrath until the Eclipse cooldown finishes?

#28 Latas

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 01:13 AM

I'm not getting the same result in WrathCalcs though, and with WC, unlike Rawr, I know exactly what's going on internally. I think that in general (not just for the purposes of this post), we need much more solid theorycraft on Solar rotations. There's a lot of discussion on the all the other Moonkin threads on this forum, but very little math at the necessary level of detail.


I thought that the current version of the moonkin rawr module used the wrathcalcs calculations.

#29 Hamlet

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 01:31 AM

I thought that the current version of the moonkin rawr module used the wrathcalcs calculations.


It seems pretty close (close enough that I've basically been using Rawr to work out my gear), but they don't return identical numbers. I've also been doing a lot of tinkering with WC model for a few days.

#30 Latas

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 07:40 AM

It seems that WC still doesn't model trinkets though whereas rawr is for the most part. That might be part of the discrepancy. That and it doesn't use reaction time in its calculations, but if the queue system is in effect properly like they said way back in tbc reaction time shouldn't really matter all that much. At least that was my understanding of it.

#31 thedopefishlives

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 12:10 PM

Rawr uses the WrathCalcs formulas for its internal calculations. I did change some of the math with regard to treants, so there will be a discrepancy there, as well as calculating trinkets on a per-cycle basis using some really fun math.

#32 Humbaba

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 12:30 PM

It seems that WC still doesn't model trinkets though whereas rawr is for the most part. That might be part of the discrepancy. That and it doesn't use reaction time in its calculations, but if the queue system is in effect properly like they said way back in tbc reaction time shouldn't really matter all that much. At least that was my understanding of it.


The queue system doesn't work for instants or hasted wraths that take less than 1s to cast.

#33 Adoriele

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 03:37 PM

It seems that WC still doesn't model trinkets though whereas rawr is for the most part. That might be part of the discrepancy. That and it doesn't use reaction time in its calculations, but if the queue system is in effect properly like they said way back in tbc reaction time shouldn't really matter all that much. At least that was my understanding of it.


First part true, second part not. WC doesn't calc trinkets because they're a huge pain to try and work out, and because I want to stay away from the huge gearlists that came up in Efejel's sheet. As a rule of thumb, WC is great for general theorycrafting/proving ideas because it's incredibly easy to modify. Rawr is better for getting the specifics, as you can use actual gear. Second part, WC has reaction time in its current iteration, though I can't remember if it's the only iteration where that's true. Probably.

#34 bridy187

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 04:06 PM

It might be worth mentioning that if your raid typically has either another boomkin who always casts FF (and is specced with 3/3 improved FF) and/or a shadow priest you can completely ignore FF in your speccing. Personally, I typically raid with a SP as well as another boomkin who has improved FF, so I have been able to ditch the improved faerie fire and just focus more on DPS increase talents (Imp IS or Brambles).

My off spec is actually the same thing as my main with improved FF in case of emergency.

#35 dukes

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 04:13 PM

so I have been able to ditch the improved faerie fire and just focus more on DPS increase talents (Imp IS or Brambles).


... Because 1% crit per point means it isn't a DPS increasing talent?

#36 Adoriele

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 04:16 PM

It might be worth mentioning that if your raid typically has either another boomkin who always casts FF (and is specced with 3/3 improved FF) and/or a shadow priest you can completely ignore FF in your speccing. Personally, I typically raid with a SP as well as another boomkin who has improved FF, so I have been able to ditch the improved faerie fire and just focus more on DPS increase talents (Imp IS or Brambles).

My off spec is actually the same thing as my main with improved FF in case of emergency.


No. Brain before posting, even just a little. iFF is 3% crit to all of your spells any time an FF is up. If you have a feral tank, they'll put it up. If you have a feral DPS, they'll put it up. If you have another moonkin and no Spriest, one of you will put it up. In fact the only reason that FF wouldn't be up is if your only other Druids in the raid are Trees, and you have a different class putting up the 5% armor debuff (CoW or Sting from a Wasp). Otherwise, you should be putting it up anyway, because that 5% armor is a great raid debuff. And even then, if all the raid debuff slots are covered, you should STILL put it up because 3% crit personally is worth spending a GCD every 5 minutes.

And 3% crit to all spells is just plain better than iIS, or Brambles, or any of the other "filler" talents after you've gotten all the necessary ones.

#37 ithecho84

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 04:57 PM

If there is a moonkin in the raid putting up IFF and a feral putting up FFF and no shadow priest, will there still be a +hit debuff? I assume (or hope) the way that it works now is that both actually go up on the boss but the stronger of the two (IFF) provides a benefit. I come to this conclusion from the fact that FFF is castable at all while IFF is up.

#38 Adoriele

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 05:05 PM

If there is a moonkin in the raid putting up IFF and a feral putting up FFF and no shadow priest, will there still be a +hit debuff? I assume (or hope) the way that it works now is that both actually go up on the boss but the stronger of the two (IFF) provides a benefit. I come to this conclusion from the fact that FFF is castable at all while IFF is up.


FFF has two components to it, a small damage effect on cast so that it can generate threat, and the debuff. They only recently unlinked these to allow ferals to cast FFF while iFF was up, but yes. Your iFF will stay on the target even if you have a feral using FFF in their rotation.

#39 Areth

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 06:26 PM

Why would you not continue to spam wrath until the Eclipse cooldown finishes?


I can't speak for SolanisRWO, but I refresh MF and IS after the solar eclipse ends. Since I've glyphed for starfire, I can pretty much "carry" the MF through to solar eclipse proc by spamming SF (12s duration + 9s added by SF = 21s, or 6s > eclipse CD). I've also glyphed MF, so it's the extra ticks that really provide the DPS boost for me (vs. the initial cast).

#40 bridy187

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 07:18 PM

No. Brain before posting, even just a little. iFF is 3% crit to all of your spells any time an FF is up. If you have a feral tank, they'll put it up. If you have a feral DPS, they'll put it up. If you have another moonkin and no Spriest, one of you will put it up. In fact the only reason that FF wouldn't be up is if your only other Druids in the raid are Trees, and you have a different class putting up the 5% armor debuff (CoW or Sting from a Wasp). Otherwise, you should be putting it up anyway, because that 5% armor is a great raid debuff. And even then, if all the raid debuff slots are covered, you should STILL put it up because 3% crit personally is worth spending a GCD every 5 minutes.

And 3% crit to all spells is just plain better than iIS, or Brambles, or any of the other "filler" talents after you've gotten all the necessary ones.


My bad. I see what you are saying. I was falsely thinking the improved FF just affected hit for some reason. I forgot about the crit. So basically:

Imp FF > Imp IS > Brambles...right?

I will be changing my spec to reflect this. I had basically always learned that if someone else was FF'ing, then you didn't have to be. However, 3% crit is obviously still worth it to be FF'ing even if a SP is covering the hit via misery. Thanks for the info.




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