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Moonkin Beginner Guide (obsolete; use the TTT article now (in my sig))


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#41 pukabg

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 07:27 PM

Why would you not continue to spam wrath until the Eclipse cooldown finishes?


Because wrath sucks for mana, and is only really worth spamming during the eclipse phase. Besides, if you're a stickler for always hitting the right eclipse, then cast a wrath or 2 too many during CD and accidentally proc a lunar eclipse... that's no good. Also casting a few SF's increases the length of your moonfire (assuming it's glyphed) which will increase your damage as well.

#42 Ashikar

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 09:06 PM

One small issue I see with the first post - brambles now only increases the damage of thorns cast upon yourself. I run brambles in my pvp spec and while my thorns returns ~370 damage everytime I am hit, the thorns on my DK only returns ~200.

I have no clue when/why this disconnect in thorns damage appeared but I am just letting everyone else know.

Brambles is still a reasonable DPS choice due to the increase in treant damage but you shouldn't apply the increased thorns damage into your calculations to see if it is worth picking up.

#43 Poromu

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 12:20 AM

Are you sure the mob hitting you proccing Thorns didn't have debuffs increasing spell damage? Everything i've tested shows Thorns increasing in damage on targets I cast it on.

#44 Alcohorlick

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 08:10 AM

Minor update to the summary post, but the is 25 , not 15.

#45 Uladra

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 06:23 PM

I know this is going to sound like a really noobish question, but when i cast IFF on a target it seem the tooltip doesn't show the increased hit% to the target. I've played a mookin off and on for a while know and he's only been 80 for about a month. I'm just hoping that it wasn't nerfed or i missed it being taken out somewhere.

thanks in advance

I must say i am thoroughly impressed with all the moonkin and wanted to say thanks to all who contribute. i have found alot of helpful talents, rotations, stat priotities and ideals from all who contribute.

Yes I have 2 mains my BM Hunter and my Druid Ulardon, just in case someone was gonna check me out on the armory :)

#46 Adoriele

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 06:27 PM

It never has shown the hit addition. No tooltips in the game show talented upgrades.

#47 Uladra

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 07:13 PM

thank you for the quick and easy clear up :cool:

#48 armtank

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 02:54 AM

I really appreciate the thread for beginner boomkins. I have modeled my spell rotation after your suggestions, but I have a question...I have done most everything that you have suggested, with the exception of maxing out my gems for +hit. Would you please take a look at my gear and see if you can figure out what changes I can make to improve my dps? I seem to be stuck in the 1.7-1.9 dps category and feel like I should be able to hit 2.0 with my type of gear. Any suggestions/ criticism would be greatly appreciate.

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My spell rotation is
The Eclipse Rotation

You will generally operate in a three-step cycle.
1) Pre-eclipse. Cast Wrath until the Eclipse buff appears (have some mod that will make it very obvious when you gain the buff).
2) Eclipse. When you see the buff, finish casting your current Wrath and then cast Starfire for the duration of Eclipse. Note that a Starfire only gains the benefit if it is fully completed while the Eclipse buff is up, so if you only have time for a partial cast, your Eclipse is effectively over (and you'll typically refresh some DoTs here, see below).
3) Post-Eclipse. When Eclipse fades, cast Starfire for the duration of the Eclipse cooldown (you should have a mod to show you the duration of the cooldown). This is also the part of the cycle where you most prefer to cast any spells that are not Wrath or Starfire.

Roughly 1.5 seconds before the Eclipse cooldown ends, begin casting Wrath again. The goal is to have the Wraths start hitting the boss as soon as the cooldown ends, restarting the pre-Eclipse phase of the cycle.

#49 Poromu

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 04:31 AM

I really appreciate the thread for beginner boomkins. I have modeled my spell rotation after your suggestions, but I have a question...I have done most everything that you have suggested, with the exception of maxing out my gems for +hit. Would you please take a look at my gear and see if you can figure out what changes I can make to improve my dps? I seem to be stuck in the 1.7-1.9 dps category and feel like I should be able to hit 2.0 with my type of gear. Any suggestions/ criticism would be greatly appreciate.


You're in Feral gear. If you can't get to 4k dps, you're doing something terribly far from this guide. The rotation you stated, are you not using any DoT's? Are you not getting sufficient raid buffs?

#50 tagrat

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 02:35 PM

Thank you for the guide Arawethion

In the talents part, you dont talk of owlkin frenzy.

A quick comparison:
IIS, considering 80% uptime for the dots, and 80% cast time passed on starfire and wrath (that left 6seconds on 30 seconds to cast the dots, starfall, some mouvement), so it seems close to 1*0.8*0.8=0.64% increse dps by talent point

Brambles,
force of nature considerins uptime 25seconds every 3min, my treant do 1.2kdps without bloodlust, 1.7kdps with.
1200*25/180*0.15=25dps(0.5% of my dps)
1700*25/180/0.15=35.41dps(0.7% of my dps)
Thorns: taken from ignis, 1 physical hit every 2.88s
50% hit on our feral druid
base damage of thorns (assume 230 damage)
230/(2.88*2)=40dps
0.75*40=30dps thats 0.6% of my dps. Could be 50% higher if you take into account the others off tank. So lets say 0.9%
So 0.6% for fon 0.9% for thorns, this is 1.5% increse dps for 3 points, 0.5% dps by point.

Gale winds: a strong talent if you use aoe. But i think there is few fight when this can be a big difference (maybe thorim in the arena, freya, i dont know for yogg saron).
Hurricane: a talent that can be useful on fight when you have to move a lot, as it is one of the few skill that we can use to dps in movement.

Owlkin frenzy: Dependant on how many time you are hit in an encounter of course, still we can do an average for any fight on ulduar. I will assume a hit every 10-20-30 seconds.
10seconds: 0.15 to inc damage by 10% for 10secs, it is +500dps for 10secs, so it is 75dps.
20seconds: 75/2=35dps
30seconds:75/3=25dps

so worth +1.5%dps for 3 points, 0.5%dps by point. You can divide that by 2 or 3 for 20-30seconds (0.25 to 0.17%)

So in the end owlkin frenzy appear close on an average on a hit every 10 seconds.
Some wws of me (no hard mode, r25)
kologarn: 1 hit every 13seconds
hodir: 1hit every 3 seconds (on this fight, owlkin is better than a lot of dps talent)
xt: 1hit every 13seconds
ignis: 1hits every 24seconds
thorim:0hits
mimiron:1hits every 13.6seconds
no data for freya
I also not have been taken into account the fact that you have no pushback when spell casting, altough it will have a limited effect on starfire because of celestial focus, it will have a more strong effect on wrath since no one should take nature’s focus


So after all of that, its a matter of choice, of course iis is probably the better, brambles is mostly dependant of thorns, and of the number of tank that will be hit.
But owlkin is also a choice that should be considered, especially good on fight with raid damage.
Hope that will help some.

#51 kr0n1x

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 06:40 PM

No. Brain before posting, even just a little. iFF is 3% crit to all of your spells any time an FF is up. If you have a feral tank, they'll put it up. If you have a feral DPS, they'll put it up. If you have another moonkin and no Spriest, one of you will put it up. In fact the only reason that FF wouldn't be up is if your only other Druids in the raid are Trees, and you have a different class putting up the 5% armor debuff (CoW or Sting from a Wasp). Otherwise, you should be putting it up anyway, because that 5% armor is a great raid debuff. And even then, if all the raid debuff slots are covered, you should STILL put it up because 3% crit personally is worth spending a GCD every 5 minutes.

And 3% crit to all spells is just plain better than iIS, or Brambles, or any of the other "filler" talents after you've gotten all the necessary ones.


Reading this, I still have a doubt (maybe for my bad english skill). Until now, I've always put iFF on bosses cause it gives +3% hit to everyone and +3% crit to me. But... if the iFF up on target isn't my one but the FF of another raid member? Will it (not my FF) gives me the +3% crit? (of course I always go with iFF talents)

I just don't know if I've to cast it by myself if i want the +3% personal crit.

Thanks, bye.

#52 Poromu

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 06:44 PM

You quoted your own answer. If there is both a spriest and a feral debuffing the mob for you, you lose almost nothing by putting your IFF on the target. However if either are missing you should apply it.

I have the habit of putting up IFF before anyone but the tank has touched the mob (sometimes before him.) I think it's a good habit to have because waiting for Misery and missing an IS or MF on my opening rotation is pretty annoying.

#53 Adoriele

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 07:58 PM

He actually didn't answer himself. And yes, it's a valid question that got answered by GC a few months ago. If you are talented into iFF and there is any FF or FFF on the target, you get the 3% crit.

#54 kr0n1x

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 08:05 PM

He actually didn't answer himself. And yes, it's a valid question that got answered by GC a few months ago. If you are talented into iFF and there is any FF or FFF on the target, you get the 3% crit.


Much thanks for the clear answer!

#55 bota

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Posted 22 May 2009 - 09:12 PM

What about the idol for insect swarm instead of starfire?

#56 armtank

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Posted 22 May 2009 - 09:45 PM

wow armory acting up...gear now shows balance spec...sorry. can you look at my gear to find a problem? I cant get dps to break 1.8. I would think my dps should be around 2.5 easy, right?

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#57 Alerian

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Posted 22 May 2009 - 10:08 PM

What about the idol for insect swarm instead of starfire?


There are other posts with the math on why this is the case, but in short, the Starfire idol is always superior to the IS idol.

EDIT: Here's some links with more detailed information:
Erdluf's post in the earlier LK MK guide thread
Gray Matter: Guide to Moonkin Idols

Of course, make sure to bank an IS idol just in case it gets buffed in a minor patch.

#58 Hamlet

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Posted 22 May 2009 - 11:43 PM

Graylo's math is wrong. The SF and IS idols are a buff to spellpower, not base damage. The SF idol confuses people because it gives a 1.0 coefficient, as it's not affected by Wrath of Cenarius. The IS idol gets a full 1.2 (0.2/tick) coefficient.

It's still weaker than Shooting Star for any normal purpose, of course.

#59 Cdin

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 12:28 AM

Graylo's math is wrong. The SF and IS idols are a buff to spellpower, not base damage. The SF idol confuses people because it gives a 1.0 coefficient, as it's not affected by Wrath of Cenarius. The IS idol gets a full 1.2 (0.2/tick) coefficient.

It's still weaker than Shooting Star for any normal purpose, of course.


I did some quick testing and realized you are correct. I will change my math. Though, it didn't materially alter my results. It only increased the DPS by 7 I think.

I would still argue that SF is an increase to base damage instead of Spell Power. If it was spell power it should be modified by Wrath of Cenarious. It might be interesting to open a bug report for it to see what happens.
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#60 Hamlet

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 12:40 AM

I did some quick testing and realized you are correct. I will change my math.

However, I would still argue that SF is an increase to base damage instead of Spell Power. If it was spell power it should be modified by Wrath of Cenarious. It might be interesting to open a bug report for it to see what happens.


Oh, hi, didn't know you posted here. I just said the same in a reply on your blog.

The SF Idol issue is academic, I guess. I was just explaining why it's consistent for it to work the way it does, even though it says "spellpower" in the tooltip (note that Wrath one says "damage" in the tooltip, as Wrath's base coefficient is less than 1). Wrath of Cenarius doesn't technically increase your coefficient, it increases the damage of your spell by a % of your character sheet spellpower--which is usually the same thing, but it's less clear that it should apply to the Idol. They seem to have chosen (intentionally or not) to have such talents not apply in such situations. TBC Trees know that Idol of the Emerald Queen worked the same way.




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