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#21 Kaejin

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 12:38 AM

I misunderstood and thought you meant using all of those Glyphs instread of just replacing the DRW glyph.

Regardless, there's no reason to trust the sim over the actual game. They're useful tools to get an idea of how things might turn out, but in the end the simulations aren't the ones killing bosses in Ulduar.
Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.

#22 Soilantgreen64

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 12:58 AM

I think I figured out my own answer to the question of DRW buffage, DRW does exactly 50% of the dmg you do


This is not exactly true. You can browse the log file of the Heart Phase of XT that I posted, and see my attacks and my DRW's attacks.

DRW will copy your attacks, but it isn't as simple as doing 50% of your damage. For example, you can crit a DS, and your DRWs DS might not crit. Conversely you can have a normal hit on your DS, and your DRWs DS can crit.

DRW sort of has a mind of its own. Cast DRW and then back out of melee range of your target, DRW will keep attacking, even though you arent hitting.

#23 AtheistGod

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 02:04 AM

That behavior has caused some interesting things. DRW will cast every ability you try to. Even if you miss/get dodged DRW will cast it and likely hit. So when you recast since your runes came back DRW will cast it again as well.

#24 Soilantgreen64

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 03:59 PM

Ok hopefully this will do a decent job of explaining things. I did some limited tested and my observations indicated that your DRW did indeed benefit from the IT and PS that IT put up (not the ones you put up), so where does that leave us.

If you cast IT+PS right before you DRW, with DRW up you can get off
6xHS+2xDS

If you cast DRW and then cast IT+PS you can do one of two things:
A)IT+PS+6HS or
B)IT+PS+4HS+2DS
where your HS is affected by the +20% from IT and PS, so they really look like
A)IT+PS+6HS*1.2 = IT+PS+7.2HS or
B)IT+PS+4HS*1.2 = IT+PS+4.8HS + 2DS

The second case is obviously the easier to compare

6HS+2DS vs IT+PS+4.8HS + 2DS or
6HS vs IT+PS+4.8HS or
1.2HS vs IT+PS

And typically that seems like that's a pretty even trade, but remember that Hysteria only affects physical damage, so you are really looking at
1.4 HS vs IT+PS, and here the 1.4HS is going to be better every time.

The other case is a little more complicated as it boils down to
6HS + 2DS vs IT+PS +7.2HS then hysteria gives
7.2HS +2.4DS vs IT + PS +8.64HS or
2.4DS vs IT+PS+1.44 HS

Which you should also be able to see for yourself that once again the case in which we cast IT+PS BEFORE DRW, wins out every time. Let me also add that this doesn't even factor in the fact that you would be casting IT+PS YOURSELF twice in the hysteria as opposed to once. So casting IT+PS after DRW/Hysteria lowers the DRWs damage, and your own.

#25 raledon

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 06:56 PM

Taking Soilantgreen64 math one step further, I will input numbers from his own WWS log from the first post.
second case: 1.4 HS vs IT+PS=>
1.4*(0.61*3300+0.39*2.45*3300) vs (0.74*1270+0.26*2*1270) + (1630*0.64+1630*2.3*0.36)+(21/3)*(540+540)=>
1.4*(2013+3153) vs (940+660) + (1043+1350) + (7*1080) =>
1.4*5166 vs 1600 + 2393 + 7560 =>
7232.4 vs 11553=>
1 vs 1.6
IT+PS does nearly 60% more damage than a heart strike (you are welcome to check my math, I might be wrong) [check edit below]

first case:
2.4DS vs IT + PS + 1.44HS
2.4*(4530*0.58+0.42*4530*2.45) vs 11553+5166*1.44 (taking math from first case) =>
2.4*(2627+4661)=2.4*7288 (ds damage) vs 11553+7.439
17492 vs 18992
1 vs 1.08

In the first case, the dots option will cause roughly 8% more damage. [check edit below]

Assuming my math is not flawd, it turns out that going thro the first case (HS over DS) does more damage than the other two options.
Guidelines on how I did the math- % of hits*avg damage*modifier.
Since our rune weapons does 50% of our damage, the caster damage directly translates to the DRW damage.

Edit: It seems I have one flaw in my math I just now noticed: the numbers I compared were after we removed some stuff. In reality, the percent diffrence is much smaller, and the diffrence between them is the raw number (or we can just calculate the whole rotation). So the first case does 18992-17492=1500 more damage than without using plagues, and the second case does 11553-7232=4321 more damage than without using plagues.
Conclusion: the said rotation of IT+PS+4HS+2DS will yield best results. This might be changed if you stack Armor piercing, but with current gear it doesn't seem to be the case.

#26 Leaflock

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 07:20 PM

Since our rune weapons does 50% of our damage


This is incorrect and shouldn't be repeated any more-- not sure where it's coming from.

The bulk of DRW's damage is from its regular melee swings-- a DRW white attack will hit twice as hard as a DRW Heart Strike. That's why it's important to stack DRW with any available haste-- Bloodlust/Heroism, Potion of Speed, etc. Similarly, Hysteria benefits DRW tremendously.

As Soilantgreen is pointing out, DRW is all about packing as many hard hitting attacks as possible into your 15 second window. While your DRW will put up full duration diseases and I believe its Heart Strikes will benefit from its own diseases (the issue pre-3.1 was that DRW's OB would remove DRW's diseases, even if you had Annihilation), the total damage of DRW's dots is pretty pitiful. I've tried both methods pretty extensively in raids, and maximizing HS + DS + DC during DRW seems to have the best results, particularly if you use Empower Rune Weapon to avoid wasting any GCDs while DRW is up.

#27 Rhuu

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 09:31 PM

I never quite understood the 4 Death Rune rule when using DRW. By the time you have 4 Death Runes available, your disease durations are righr around 8 seconds (with 1/2 Epidemic). DRW eats a GCD so before you can start HS spam you're now down to 6.5 seconds. Your diseases will fall off (with 1/2 Epidemic) right around your third HS (if latency is on your side you can get it off right before diseases fade), leaving yourself with 3 diseaseless Heart Strikes (4 if you Blood Tap; more if you ERW).

Is it really more DPS in the long run to eat those 3+ diseaseless Heart Strikes? I also see 2/2 Epidemic only benefiting the 4x Death Rune situation-I personally don't run into too many situations where I need those extra 3 seconds to finish my rotations.

#28 Grondarg

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 10:45 PM

I've also experiment with talent values using the Death Knight Simulator. For Blood Dps, Necrosis > Ravenous Dead > BCB > Morbity. The other thing I've know for a long time now is that 1 point in Impurity is better then DRW. After some quick work on the sim, turns out that the gylph of disease is the best gylph followed very closely by the Icy Touch Gylph then the Plague Strike Gylph. I need more input here on this matter but I'm seriously considering dropping DRW. I'm trying to figure out if burst value from DRW balances it out for some fights.

oh and that 44 / 0 / 27 spec is horrid.


There is something not quite right about how the sims calculate the bonus from Impurity. I brought it up in Kahorie's thread and he checked the calculations and couldn't find any issue. So I ran a 50/0/21 impurity build for 2 weeks. I couldn't find demonstrative proof that it was better so I switched back. I should have a 51/0/20 log on tuesday night to compare with my 50/0/21 run from last week.

#29 Joshyboy

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 11:30 PM

I have a question to put to you gentlemen.
I've personally been using Glyph of Death strike , Glyph of Dark Death and instead of the more standard Glyph of DRW I've been using the Glyph of Blood Strike, I know Its different, but I don't use DRW half as much as I probably should, as you know Glyph of Blood strike increases damage done by Heart Strike as well. But the question I'm putting to you Is whether you know If Snare effects have to actually be effective for it to work? For instance a mage's frost fire bolt has a snare effect as do many classes, so does simply having these debuffs up on a mob actually activate the glyph or do the effects need to be effective?

#30 richard

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 11:38 PM

as you know Glyph of Blood strike increases damage done by Heart Strike as well.


From the 3.1 patch notes:

Heart Strike: Bonus damage for diseases is now a multiplier rather than a flat bonus. No longer affected by .


But to answer your question, anything that reduces movement speed and leaves a debuff will work with the glyph. Note that it's different from the mage talent where it can be attack speed reductions as well.

#31 Joshyboy

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 11:39 PM

My mistake, missed the patch notes
Thanks for that

#32 Kankersore

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 07:04 AM

Trinket Question: I currently use Greatness Deck and Mjolnir Runestone as my trinkets. I also have a Grim Toll. Would it be worth it to replace the Greatness Deck with Grim Toll to have 2 ArP proc trinkets?

My theory is that as long as they don't both proc at the same time its 20 seconds of 100% ArP with short downtime between the 2 internal cooldowns. I just don't know if it over powers the pure STR on the Greatness deck to run Grim in its place. Your thoughts and ideas gentlemen?

#33 Soilantgreen64

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 01:31 PM

Trinket Question: I currently use Greatness Deck and Mjolnir Runestone as my trinkets. I also have a Grim Toll. Would it be worth it to replace the Greatness Deck with Grim Toll to have 2 ArP proc trinkets?

My theory is that as long as they don't both proc at the same time its 20 seconds of 100% ArP with short downtime between the 2 internal cooldowns. I just don't know if it over powers the pure STR on the Greatness deck to run Grim in its place. Your thoughts and ideas gentlemen?


I wouldn't replace the Greatness with Grim toll, heads up the Greatness is a better trinket, and that's before you even take into consideration that double trinket procs would push you over the 100% ArP cap.

Plus your DPS spikes when Greatness and Runestone overlap will be awesome. As opposed to Runestone and Grim Toll overlapping which would just be sad.

#34 raledon

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 03:52 PM

This is incorrect and shouldn't be repeated any more-- not sure where it's coming from.

The bulk of DRW's damage is from its regular melee swings-- a DRW white attack will hit twice as hard as a DRW Heart Strike. That's why it's important to stack DRW with any available haste-- Bloodlust/Heroism, Potion of Speed, etc. Similarly, Hysteria benefits DRW tremendously.

As Soilantgreen is pointing out, DRW is all about packing as many hard hitting attacks as possible into your 15 second window. While your DRW will put up full duration diseases and I believe its Heart Strikes will benefit from its own diseases (the issue pre-3.1 was that DRW's OB would remove DRW's diseases, even if you had Annihilation), the total damage of DRW's dots is pretty pitiful. I've tried both methods pretty extensively in raids, and maximizing HS + DS + DC during DRW seems to have the best results, particularly if you use Empower Rune Weapon to avoid wasting any GCDs while DRW is up.


Well, as far I understood the DRW mechanic, it goes like this:
Once used, DRW will take a "snapshot" of your stats, and mimic you. For instance, if you had 6000 ap when you cast it and cast a heart strike later with 5000 ap, the DRW will cast a heart strike with power of 6000 ap. The damage that the said heart strike will cause will be half of what your heart strike will do with 6000 ap.
According to what you say (correct me if I'm wrong), the DRW heart strike will cause over 50% of your damage, while it's dots will cause less than 50%. This is probably incorrect, and I ignored any damage bonus that the DRW might recieve from dots being up, since I'm not entirely sure if it actually recieves them.
Regarding the dots being pitiful, please note that blood diseases ARE pitiful. On the other hand, a full run disease is not so pitiful, since it does 7 times it's ticks damage.

#35 Syrvantez

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 04:12 PM

The other major component regarding DRW is the fact that it functions off the same disease mechanics that you as the DK do. That is the primary reason for putting up the diseases first, that and it's free dps even after your DRW duration expires, the dots will still tick to their full duration. If you want to test this try it on a target dummy and review your combat log.

Just for curiosity's sake, does anyone have 4 pc yet and do we know if the 4 pc will affect DRW? I know our 4 pc, like many others, is total crap but it's better than nothing.

#36 Crewell

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 04:31 PM

Death Strike damage scales with . Beginning a rotation with this is a dps loss due to the fact you have no runic power.


Starting your first rotation with Death Strike is no different than what we go through every second set of runes when we cast DS - HS - HS - HS - HS - dump. That Death Strike is after a dump and hence we have little runic power at the time to gain the full benefit from the Glyph of Death Strike. Having your opening rotation start with Death Strike won't be a major DPS impact in a boss fight where as getting that 10% AP bonus out to the rest of the raid could be. After all if you wait on your Death Strike until the end of your first rune set you lost out on 6 seconds (four global cooldowns) of the AP boost. The impact of this obviously varies based on raid composition. There really isn't a finite value to how much damage that 10% AP boost equates to over the 6 seconds in comparison to if you stuck with a normal rotation to open with.

Now if you have someone else in the raid providing that boost (ie. a Marksman Hunter), then stay with the normal rotations.

#37 crazy dodo

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 06:12 PM

Couple of questions (i'm new to blood so this is just in response to what i've read here so far)

First off, as far as rotations and DS concerns, i saw 2 rotations being discussed but what about a compromise between the 2
1. IT-PS-HS-HS-DS-DUMP (diseases 1st, Abom last)
2. DS-IT-PS-HS-HS-DUMP (Abom Might 1st, diseases 2nd)
3. IT-PS-DS-HS-HS-DUMP (compromise, diseases 1st, abom 2nd)
you still get your diseases 1st, have 20RP or so which gives you 20%+ to DS which is just 5% short of the max increase by the Glyph. Also you can still start the fight early with a ranged IT instead of waiting to get to your target before attacking. In fact this means that your DS is delayed by only 1 second (GCD after PS) which i'm sure is acceptable

My other question is about DRW
Tooltip mentions the +1sec for every 10 RP, how is this calculated exactly. Does this mean that in order to maximize duration you have to use DRW when you have 100 RP (which basicaly means after 2 full rotations for the 4 death runes as well)? or can you just start it with 40RP and keep it up with newly generated RP?

I'm also a bit confused about the role Empowered Rune Weapon plays in DRW. Are we talking about burning it before DRW, or having it ready for DRW in order to maximize attacks during that period (which makes more sense to me)

#38 Soilantgreen64

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 06:27 PM

My other question is about DRW
Tooltip mentions the +1sec for every 10 RP, how is this calculated exactly. Does this mean that in order to maximize duration you have to use DRW when you have 100 RP (which basicaly means after 2 full rotations for the 4 death runes as well)? or can you just start it with 40RP and keep it up with newly generated RP?

I'm also a bit confused about the role Empowered Rune Weapon plays in DRW. Are we talking about burning it before DRW, or having it ready for DRW in order to maximize attacks during that period (which makes more sense to me)


The duration of DRW is only affected by the RP you have when it is spawned, it does not work like gargoyle. Your RP is spent when it is cast, and that determines how long it lasts

You would burn ERW after you cast DRW and have used all your available runes, so you are always striking with DRW up, DC'ing as a last resort.

#39 Montegomery

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 06:35 PM

First off, as far as rotations and DS concerns, i saw 2 rotations being discussed but what about a compromise between the 2
1. IT-PS-HS-HS-DS-DUMP (diseases 1st, Abom last)
2. DS-IT-PS-HS-HS-DUMP (Abom Might 1st, diseases 2nd)
3. IT-PS-DS-HS-HS-DUMP (compromise, diseases 1st, abom 2nd)
you still get your diseases 1st, have 20RP or so which gives you 20%+ to DS which is just 5% short of the max increase by the Glyph. Also you can still start the fight early with a ranged IT instead of waiting to get to your target before attacking. In fact this means that your DS is delayed by only 1 second (GCD after PS) which i'm sure is acceptable


You can easily go into combat with 10 or so RP handy thanks to DnD, HoW, and Butchery (If you have 3/3 Morbidity, you can actually cap RP before a pull by casting DND and HoW on CD). You don't necessarily lose a full 26% damage from that first DS. So the gains from your compromise are either minimal or non-existent, and the losses are 1.5-3 seconds of buff time. Note that the buff also increases your disease damage.

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#40 Drakanis

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 07:04 PM

oh and that 44 / 0 / 27 spec is horrid.


What is horrid about the spec? The 44/0/27 is a solid spec. Although, I would move the points around a bit to look like this...

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This spec is capable of some very solid damage. One thing it had going to it prior to the T7 nerf was an additional Death Coil in your rotation. However, I would still imagine it to be a very viable spec even after the nerf.




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