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Blood Simple - The Day The Music Died


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#41 crazy dodo

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 07:35 PM

thanks Soilantgreen64 for clarifying DRW functionality.

and yes i momentarily forgot that the GCD is 1.5 secs which brings me to my next question - Haste

i've read quite a few threads here but have yet to get a definitive understanding of Haste on Death Knights
Does Haste Rating improve the cooldown of Runes (I have noticed that Heroism definitely speeds up said cooldowns)
or does it simply increase the number of white hits per minute?

Also although all runes are supposed to take 10secs to cooldown i've noticed that blood runes replenish quicker. Anyone know the exact timing?

#42 Canadianloaf

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 08:15 PM

Also you can still start the fight early with a ranged IT instead of waiting to get to your target before attacking.


If disease damage is set only once when IT is cast, then this will be 10% loss on your frost fever for the duration of the first rotation. However if the dmg is determined from AP at the time of each tick, then the choice of starting with DS or ranged IT is pretty much personal preference. Has anyone tested this or know the mechanics?

For maxing AP buff, DS should take priority over PS on opening, however, since both are melee range.

It may also be useful to note that opening with a ranged IT before getting to melee range means the haste debuff from frost fever will be on the boss earlier at a time when you will not be able to use DS anyhow.

#43 kelben

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 11:07 PM

What is horrid about the spec? The 44/0/27 is a solid spec. Although, I would move the points around a bit to look like this...

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This spec is capable of some very solid damage. One thing it had going to it prior to the T7 nerf was an additional Death Coil in your rotation. However, I would still imagine it to be a very viable spec even after the nerf.


The key point of picking up this build is to grab impurity and perma ghoul. Your revision skips impurity which kills the dps of this build even further. In additon putting the extra point into epidemic is unneeded. I also simmed the build and compared it to the typical blood build, ~1000 dps difference. The lost of 10% dmg and 10% apr is brutual.
Haste is the devil...

#44 Drakanis

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 12:48 AM

The key point of picking up this build is to grab impurity and perma ghoul. Your revision skips impurity which kills the dps of this build even further. In additon putting the extra point into epidemic is unneeded. I also simmed the build and compared it to the typical blood build, ~1000 dps difference. The lost of 10% dmg and 10% apr is brutual.



Impurity is a weak talent for that spec at 5 points. You get more value in putting the points into Dirge and Necrosis. The left over point goes into Epidemic for the extra disease DoT. The additional RP given by Dirge allows you to get more DC's in during the course of a fight...which outweighs the points in Impurity. While I understand that the loss of 10% damage bonus and 10% ArPen is a lot, you still pick up a lot of damage with those extra points in Unholy. I appreciate the value of the simulator, but there is absolutely no way there is a 1000 dps difference between the two specs.

#45 richard

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 01:13 AM

i've read quite a few threads here but have yet to get a definitive understanding of Haste on Death Knights
Does Haste Rating improve the cooldown of Runes (I have noticed that Heroism definitely speeds up said cooldowns)
or does it simply increase the number of white hits per minute?

Also although all runes are supposed to take 10secs to cooldown i've noticed that blood runes replenish quicker. Anyone know the exact timing?


Read this: http://elitistjerks....:_How_They_Work

Haste does nothing for rune cooldowns, only IUP does. Haste will make you swing faster, and shorten the GCD on spells, such as IT and DC, but not for melee strikes like HS or DS.

#46 Darkside

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 04:40 AM

[SIZE="3"]DRW will gain buffs you have before casting it, but will not get things used after, i.e. Hysteria, potions, etc.
Your DRW checklist looks something like this, in order of importance.


How certain are we about the truth of this statement? I just did a flurry of tests with different buffs to test their impact on DRW. My results all yeilded the same DRW damage no matter what buffs I had up before casting DRW. The buffs tested include: Hysteria, Blood Fury, Unholy Strength and Grim Toll. Has anyone else seen similar/conflicting results?

[e]: just retested Unholy Strength, it appears to add a marginal amount of damage to DRW.

[e^2]: Pyrite Infuser appears to be adding a considerable amount of DRW damage and I think I was wrong about Blood Fury.

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#47 mojo0070

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 07:23 AM

Hey guys, Im a massive fan of EJ and have used this site for a long time now. Im very happy with the way blood plays out at the moment as a 10 man raider.
However there's 1 thing that's bugging me, I have some 16 expertise gems in my gear and im still not at the expertise cap, i've just been unlucky with obtaining items with expertise on them. Should i just go for 16 str gems and just wait for some expertise items to drop in ulduar or will the dodges and parries that i gain mess up the rotation so much that it becomes a big dps loss?

#48 Melchior

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 09:16 AM

Hey guys, Im a massive fan of EJ and have used this site for a long time now. Im very happy with the way blood plays out at the moment as a 10 man raider.
However there's 1 thing that's bugging me, I have some 16 expertise gems in my gear and im still not at the expertise cap, i've just been unlucky with obtaining items with expertise on them. Should i just go for 16 str gems and just wait for some expertise items to drop in ulduar or will the dodges and parries that i gain mess up the rotation so much that it becomes a big dps loss?


STR has a higher stat weight average than EXP even prior to being capped. This is partly because there are sources of damage that are unaffected by EXP, however 100% of damage is increased by STR.

On the other hand, EXP is still a very strong stat up to the cap, so if you feel more comfortable with your rotation when eliminating dodge chance you may want to just keep the gems until your gear changes.
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#49 Lollersk8er

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 10:46 AM

How certain are we about the truth of this statement? I just did a flurry of tests with different buffs to test their impact on DRW. My results all yeilded the same DRW damage no matter what buffs I had up before casting DRW. The buffs tested include: Hysteria, Blood Fury, Unholy Strength and Grim Toll. Has anyone else seen similar/conflicting results?

[e]: just retested Unholy Strength, it appears to add a marginal amount of damage to DRW.

[e^2]: Pyrite Infuser appears to be adding a considerable amount of DRW damage and I think I was wrong about Blood Fury.


DRW is most likely just based of AP and Haste, comparable to the Gargoyle. Waiting for FC+Greatness procs is the optimal time to use DRW.

#50 Nizari

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 12:08 PM

I am an engineer Blood DK and I have noticed that the Pyro Rockets add a solid 1% dps every fight. They benefit from Blood Presence (15%), Blood Gorged (10%) and Curse of Elements (13%). They also have a chance to crit (not sure if it is equal to your spell or melee or whatever chance). They do not benefit from Bloody Vengeance or the passive "spells crit for 200%" skill DK's have.

So it's average hit is meant to be 1600 however recount tells me while soloing on a dummy that the average is 2000 (1600 *1.25 = 2000) and then the average in a raid is about 2250ish this is all excluding the crits.

assuming no crits 2250 / 45 = 50 DPS

I am wondering how this can compare to the Handspeed Accelerator enchant. which works out to be 56.6666 haste rating (340 * 10) / 60. However You can time it in with Hysteria/heroism/potion/DRW.....

Also this is a fantastic post, all the little things I was looking for in the old one but not spread across 50 pages >.<.

Nice work Orcy
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#51 noxz

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 12:18 PM

Seeing as there is a DRW discussion going on here I might as well put my question up for reading as well

I have during the last week noticed something with my dancing runweapon.
it's uptime is not correct with the tooltip given.

DRW tooltip says a weapon that fights on it's own for 10sec plus 1 sec per 10 runic power.

10+6(if Rp is 100 cost for spell is 40 RP) = 16 sec + 5 second from the glyph =21 sec

that is close to the time of my buff atm. my buff when activating DRW starts at 20sec.

however

I have runic power mastery witch means 30 more runic power equaling to 3 more seconds

10sec (spell activation)+9sec (runic power 130 - 40 for spellcost) + 5 (glyph)
10+9+5=24

when I activate my DRW it starts at 20. did a test on trainign dummies as I spoke to a GM about this and tried 3 times and it always started on 20 seconds

unless there is something I have missed me/we are getting robbed out of 4 seconds on our dancing rune weapon

#52 Grondarg

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 12:25 PM

Starting your first rotation with Death Strike is no different than what we go through every second set of runes when we cast DS - HS - HS - HS - HS - dump. That Death Strike is after a dump and hence we have little runic power at the time to gain the full benefit from the Glyph of Death Strike. Having your opening rotation start with Death Strike won't be a major DPS impact in a boss fight where as getting that 10% AP bonus out to the rest of the raid could be. After all if you wait on your Death Strike until the end of your first rune set you lost out on 6 seconds (four global cooldowns) of the AP boost. The impact of this obviously varies based on raid composition. There really isn't a finite value to how much damage that 10% AP boost equates to over the 6 seconds in comparison to if you stuck with a normal rotation to open with.

Now if you have someone else in the raid providing that boost (ie. a Marksman Hunter), then stay with the normal rotations.


You only need 26rp to get full benefit from DS glyph. So dumping from full RP your still getting a 20% bonus from the glyph in later parts of the rotation. There is plenty of discussion on the subject of opening with DS in the 2 Blood Theorycraft threads.

#53 Lollersk8er

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 12:43 PM

DRW

It's 5 Base + Rp/10 + 5 Glyph. The glyph is added already in the tooltip.

#54 crazy dodo

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 02:46 PM

Now if you have someone else in the raid providing that boost (ie. a Marksman Hunter), then stay with the normal rotations.


I was under the impression that the +10% AP buff is no longer mutualy exclusive between classes (i.e. Abom Might does not stack with Abom Might but will now stack with Trueshot Aura)

if this is not the case then raiding with a static group employing a marksman you really could be putting those talent points to better use, correct?

#55 richard

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 03:35 PM

I was under the impression that the +10% AP buff is no longer mutualy exclusive between classes (i.e. Abom Might does not stack with Abom Might but will now stack with Trueshot Aura)

if this is not the case then raiding with a static group employing a marksman you really could be putting those talent points to better use, correct?


Of course they don't stack, they're identical buffs. The talent also gives 2% strength so it would be stupid not to spec it, especially since there are no other talents that would give a DPS increase.

#56 Eveenah

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 06:04 PM

I'm wonder of stats weights, they are very strange. Is it possible to update first post with link on methods stats calculations?
For example, Agi affects ~72% (in average) of our damage. So, It's weigth will be:
http://elitistjerks....n/mathtex.cgi? \[1Agi%20=%20\frac{{45.91}}{{62.5}}\%%20Melee\cdot1Crit\]

1Agi = 45.91/62.5*0,72*1,56 = 0,77

This significally differs from 1,37 listed at first post.

#57 AtheistGod

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 06:41 PM

I'm wonder of stats weights, they are very strange. Is it possible to update first post with link on methods stats calculations?
For example, Agi affects ~72% (in average) of our damage. So, It's weigth will be:
http://elitistjerks....n/mathtex.cgi? \[1Agi%20=%20\frac{{45.91}}{{62.5}}\%%20Melee\cdot1Crit\]

1Agi = 45.91/62.5*0,72*1,56 = 0,77

This significally differs from 1,37 listed at first post.


That 28% spell damage seems high. For me I have about 12% DC 2% IT 3% FF 3 % BP. That adds up to 20%. Add in the fact that BP and FF can't crit anyways. So thats 80/94 or about 85%. Also that formula forgets to add the 10% benefit Agi gets from kings.

#58 Eveenah

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 10:00 PM

That 28% spell damage seems high. For me I have about 12% DC 2% IT 3% FF 3 % BP. That adds up to 20%. Add in the fact that BP and FF can't crit anyways. So thats 80/94 or about 85%. Also that formula forgets to add the 10% benefit Agi gets from kings.

%Melee - this number represents all damage that is not affected by Agi. So, in my vision BP and FF should be subscrubed not divided.

Also you forgot about:
Rune Weapon: Death Coil - 1.4%
Bloodworm:Melee - 0.6%
BcB - 4,2%
Adds damage if any.
So, for you number will be even lower than 72%

About Kings you are right, formula should be:
http://elitistjerks....n/mathtex.cgi? \[1Agi%20=%20\frac{{45.91}}{{62.5}}\%%20Melee\cdot1Crit\cdot1.1\]
So, 1Agi = 0.85
Also, Agi adds armor and in result AP. This easyly calculated to additional ~0.01, so final value will be ~0,86.

I beleive current weights should be recalculated. Could anyone point me on original calculations post? failed to find him.

#59 Husnan

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 10:11 PM

blabla
I beleive current weights should be recalculated. Could anyone point me on original calculations post? failed to find him.


Well, your results are not in contradiction with those in the OP

You say 1 agi = 0.86 crit rating
OP says 1 crit rating = 1.56 APE and 1 agi = 1.37 APE

1.56 x 0.86 = 1.3416

That seems about right.

#60 AtheistGod

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 11:24 PM

% melee is amount of damage that can crit with agi over the amount that can crit with crit rating. Do bloodworms scale with either?
BcB is unaffected by both.
You forget that abilities that can't crit with crit rating are already accounted for in that number. Also since Heart strike and Death Strike get a crit modifier they benefit more than spells do from crits. Since both are on agi it's more than just a matter of how much damage is crittable.

Looking at it even at 100% melee the number given is too close to crit rating. Your numbers seem too low and the 1.37 is impossible. It seems the number should be in the 1.05-1.15 range given what crit rating is at.




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