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Blood Simple - The Day The Music Died

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#1421 Kaejin


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Posted 24 July 2010 - 12:40 PM

If you don't want to use an Unholy subspec then no one is going to force you, but the evidence (including your own sims) supports it being superior to Frost.

Being stubborn about it isn't going to magically make Frost subspec better.
Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.

#1422 Kaejin


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Posted 24 July 2010 - 06:56 PM

You're right, I did dumb math on the % business and I'm not sure what I was thinking there.

I still maintain that 300 DPS isn't what you would want to call something trivial, though. It's definitely a big enough gap that most people wouldn't consider saying the two specs perform equally. As an example, blood builds take Bloodworms because they do 100-200 DPS, despite the fact that there are other options that effect utility and play and even though some people don't like them.

Now I'm going to try to figure out what I was doing when I thought 9.6% was a reasonable number.
Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.

#1423 rh8452


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Posted 26 July 2010 - 05:16 PM

I have no idea why disease uptime is so low in both parses. On a tank and spank boss your diseases should never, ever fall off.

Both sub frost and Obliterate were theorycrafted a long time ago and proven to be a DPS loss. Blood has not changed whatsoever since that time, nor have any game mechanics that affect it. In addition, GoD is also a DPS increase once near or at arpen cap due to the gain of an extra HS.

GoD is also exceedingly handy on heroic lich king. Blood is a solid spec for this fight (essentially one of the only fights which matters anymore), glyph of HS is an insignificant DPS loss replacing glyph of DS if you want an additional valk snare, Blood's cleave is exceptional when two raging spirits are active in transitions, and more.

51/0/20 is the -only- Blood DPS build which is viable. No other subspecs, no other FU strike, no futzing around, will produce more or even equal DPS than that build will. It has not changed since Ulduar. It has been proven many, many times now and will probably continue to be the same until 4.0.

#1424 Kaitliac


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Posted 13 August 2010 - 12:14 PM

(Reason is 10%AP buff lack in my raid...)

This is *always* an excellent reason to be blood, especially in a melee heavy raid, so long as WF and magic damage are already covered.

Here are the two parses. And no I dont like the GOD builds... maybe they perform better, but not for my personal playstyle... as you can see the difference is a mere 300 dps (in SIM), I am pretty sure they perform equal on live.

Sadly I believe you're probably mistaken. I think when playing, the gap would increase, not decrease. For reference, I was heavily into DW shadow-frost before the frost tree was redone to kill it, so let me shed some light on the root comparisons with what blood has access to.

Frost gains the 20% haste (always nice for a melee dps focused class), the 10% frost and shadow damage (negligible increases from either to diseases, a very small bump to death coil which should also be low). 3% crit on melee abilities. And 4% str. You can not take anything from UH and still get Endless Winter.

Unholy gains 3% spell hit, 6% crit and 30% damage on crit on plague strike, 15% damage on death coil (in a non GoD build), 3% str. Longer diseases. Then it also gains 20% non physical damage on auto attacks. And gains a 30% chance for 25% weapon damage + 12.5% per disease on auto attack.

So, let's break it down into a comparison. 20% melee haste versus necrosis, BCB, and longer diseases. While the haste does affect your GCD probably to the point where you can compress a rotation into your default disease duration, it's not really increasing your dps from anything except auto attack and maybe the odd death coil. Unholy pulls fairly far ahead here, since necrosis alone versus icy talons is fairly close to even.

The frost and shadow damage increases do help with disease damage, but even with someone else providing crypt fever, diseases shouldn't total more then 6% of your damage, probably less with more ArP. Which is really the point, this talent doesn't scale with your ArP, nor do diseases. 15% more death coil damage is obviously more than what death coil gains from 10% shadow damage. Between the two alone it comes out as fairly close to even. Plague strike gains a small boost (on a small portion of your damage) and should even out any gains Icy Touch would get from Black Ice and even some of IIT, especially since PS scales with ArP and IT doesn't. And your raid buffed crit should be nearing 50%.

What you're really left with are 3% spell hit (remember, if you miss with IT you just lost a GCD, which is huge in blood, although with a standard rotation an IT miss sets you back far less than DS or HS misses mid rotation) on Unholy's side, and an extra 1% str and 3% melee ability crit on Frost's. Really, the only thing interesting here is the 1% str... 3% melee specials crit can't even come close to making up the gap BCB creates. The 1% extra str is interesting and probably the only thing that gives something of a gear scaling edge to frost, but still shouldn't come close to BCB.

What you *really* need to focus on are how much of either provides scaling with ArP. Even without resorting to a sim it should be obvious that while the frost sub spec is "viable" it simply can't hold even with the unholy sub specs, especially as gear increases. While a sim might manage to play both to within 300 dps of each other in your gear, part of that is going to be the sim managing to make use of the 20% haste from Icy Talons very efficiently. In real play, this is likely to only really be a bonus to your auto attack. Not to mention that even a sim isn't going to magically find extra RP in a blood spec, even if it does gain extra GCDs. Also auto attack benefiting talents like necrosis, bcb, and icy talons tend to inflate in real play versus sims, especially if you don't sim with your latency set high enough, but also simply due to the human element. Or do you do you normally do your simmed dps?

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