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#21 XI-

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 11:16 PM

Buffs could always be stacked, and even with 5 minute buffs everyone always ran around with full buffs from every paladin courtesy of WC. I've played both alliance and horde, and for some reason I wouldn't conclusively claim one is better than the other.

Totems have their downsides, duration probably needs to be increased, and mana cost decreased perhaps, but I think the range gives you some options sometimes to apply certain totems to certain people. From a buff power perspective, playing only melee characters, I prefer totems to blessings. Now I haven't sat down and done the math, its just a personal feeling thing.

As for paladin healing, paladins are great if you want to heal consistantly over a long period of time, or if aggro is an issue. Otherwise a shaman is a vastly better healer than a paladin. Pretty much all of raiding and PvP has devolved to HPS now, not HPMana.

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#22 EgaL

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 11:56 PM

Okay back to the greater totem idea where aonly those would affect the whole raid and cost a bit more mana.

You would have the opportunity to place the "small" tranquil air totem so that it affects only your group while the shamans in the tank groups supply the whole melee with windfury.

I think it would be a benefit. You would still take 5 shamans or more into a raid group because you would have more versatility and could buff ppl in a greater area (against bosses where you have to spread out a lot this would be good for example).

The same with moving around a lot, you let the shamans put down totems across the whole room(or at the spots where the battle is taking place) and everyone is buffed.

I dont think this would unbalance the factions that much.

The same could be done with auras. I dont really think that it would make any boss encounter trivial.

#23 Sebudai

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 06:02 AM

I think the idea of raid-wide totems is horrible, and I will be very disappointed if that is what they do.

I like the limitations of group based totems. I like that it forces me to think a little when I'm making groups for our raid. Totems need to last longer, they need to have a larger range, and they need to cost less mana. Also, some totems just need to be better.

Flametongue Totem, Healing Stream Totem, Windwall Totem, and Stoneskin Totem all need to be improved. For example, for Flametongue Totem to actually be better than Searing Totem, the mob you're fighting would have to be immune to nature damage(thus no poisons), and you would have to be in a group with atleast 3 rogues. It's still probably not worth using even then, since it is less mana efficient than Searing Totem in every situation. What a horrible spell.

It's been very frustrating for me to play a shaman lately. I am absolutely sick of looking at the dozens of nearly useless talents and spells our class has. I am sick of every single shaman item being basically the same. I am sick of the total lack of options our class has. But most of all I am really, really sick of the total lack of communication from Blizzard. I have no choice but to assume that they think there isn't really very much wrong, when I know that there is. I try as hard as I can to give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt, but it really seems that they are dropping the ball with the shaman class.

At this point I feel that threads like these really have no purpose. Blizzard isn't listening. Great ideas on what they can do to fix the situation have been posted thousands of times, on dozens of forums. They don't care. They don't think there are any major problems with the class. They can't possibly sift through all the junk on the shaman forums, or the R&D forums, to find the good posts. So the only option is to wait.

I hope someone can convince me otherwise.
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#24 EgaL

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 06:34 AM

Well they did hear us pallys complaining about the short blessings. I think they will hear the shamans complaining too.

I dont really see an argument against raid wide totems only because you have fun constructing groups aorund shamasn that doesnt mean its good that you have to put that much thought in it.

This solution would go along the lines to trivialize the stuff and make it easier for not shamans to construct the raids...

Perhaps even the searing toten would benefit from that buff (Though its a "apply on weapon" thing like poison and you cant have two of them(like searing totem and windfury) right?)

Whining doesnt help :P Just think constructive they wont just increase radius, duration, make totems cost less mana and make some of them more powerful that would be too easy.

Pls forget my initial suggestion

The "Greater Totem" idea is the only one that I d like to see implemented. Those totems would last 15 min and buff the whole raid but cost a significant amount of mana so you should coordinate who puts his greater totem where.

Dismissing totems should be possible too.

#25 EgaL

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 06:50 AM

cant edit my post anymore :huh:

Iam not that into those totems you mentioned but I guess those will be buffed when they redo the shaman class... in three major patches :rolleyes:

Judging your whine... you should prolly play with an alt or switch games if you dont have fun anymore

#26 tenarius

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 08:58 AM

I quite like the idea of shaman getting totems that influence caster damage, but in my opinion totems vs auras is not nearly as much of an issue as most people feel it is. In my opinion the biggest Paladin v. Shaman issues are

1) Totem range - as encounter design is moving to a larger scale (which is fantastic) they don't cut it, as Gurgthock and others have noted.
2) Number of the class required to feasibly buff a raid - significantly more Shaman needed.
3) Judgment of Wisdom!

In terms of a general comparison of utility I think most horde players underestimate Windfury substantially. It is already extraordinarily powerful and unlike Blessing of Might, scales extremely well. Yes I know BoK scales too but not comparably. A year of content from now Windfury will be vastly better than BoM+BoK for melee.

The pulse modification is the best suggestion I have heard for fixing the totem range issues. A resto talent that granted the ability to drop multiple totems of the same type is another potential fix - particularly if it included an improvement to totem duration (reasonable, since in practice paladins don't have to cast their blessings during a battle). Multiple totems wouldn't be as cool or dynamic as pulsing totems, though.

I'm very, very curious what Blizzard has in store for shaman.

#27 Sebudai

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 12:04 PM

Unless I suck at math, a rogue with Grace of Air and poisoned weapons is going to put out more damage than a rogue with Windfury. I wonder how many alliance players actually know that Windfury and poisons don't stack.

Windfury is great for warriors, but in many situations the warrior you would give Windfury to is grouped with a rogue and/or a hunter, so using Grace of Air ends up being more beneficial.

I agree that whining doesn't help, but up to this point being constructive hasn't helped either. I have posted in dozens of threads just like this on the WoW forums. None of these threads have ever had any Blizzard response. There is no communication. What are we supposed to assume? Don't you think if Blizzard thought the totem mechanic was broken and that shaman talents were weak they would have done something about it a long time ago? I do. The shaman is the least played class. Blizzard doesn't care, either at all, or enough.
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#28 XI-

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 12:36 PM

Unless I suck at math, a rogue with Grace of Air and poisoned weapons is going to put out more damage than a rogue with Windfury. I wonder how many alliance players actually know that Windfury and poisons don't stack.

Windfury is great for warriors, but in many situations the warrior you would give Windfury to is grouped with a rogue and/or a hunter, so using Grace of Air ends up being more beneficial.

I agree that whining doesn't help, but up to this point being constructive hasn't helped either. I have posted in dozens of threads just like this on the WoW forums. None of these threads have ever had any Blizzard response. There is no communication. What are we supposed to assume? Don't you think if Blizzard thought the totem mechanic was broken and that shaman talents were weak they would have done something about it a long time ago? I do. The shaman is the least played class. Blizzard doesn't care, either at all, or enough.

Saying shaman is the least played class was cute, but is fundamentally untrue. If you realize shaman can only be played by 1 faction, then there are more shaman then, druids, priests, and warlocks, and the same as mages. If you also calculated that alliance is the more populated side 60/40, then there are probably roughly the same amount of shamans as paladins.

Not that any of this even makes a difference since the quality of a class has nothing to do with what the endless hordes of unwashed masses play. Take warlock for example warlocks are played by roughly 10% of the population, yet warlock is one of the most balanced and polished classes available, and for your average player, an infinitely better choice than warrior or rogue, since they fair significantly better in 1v1 pvp.

Also I highly doubt that GoA and weapon poisons is pushing more dmg than WF, and even if its close now, the gap is going to increase in the future since neither GoA nor poisons scale.

Shaman's have some of the best talents around. The problem is that there are no trees. There is a straight line of talents you take, and not knowing anything about shaman you could go right ahead and choose them. The only significant talent complaint is the path to MT.

The whole woa is me cry is cute on the blizzard forum, but honestly I don't think many people here care whether you cancel your account or not.

in before JOHN FUCKING MADDEN


#29 jubelio

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 12:42 PM

Don't you think if Blizzard thought the totem mechanic was broken and that shaman talents were weak they would have done something about it a long time ago? I do.

:lol: :sheep:

#30 EgaL

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 12:55 PM

Lets not derail too much please.

Greater Totems any one got any cons?

Definition of Greater Totem:
* affect the whole raid
* perhaps 10 yards increased radius
* higher mana cost
* longer duration
* more hitpoints



#31 jubelio

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 12:57 PM

Lets not derail too much please.

Greater Totems any one got any cons?

Every person that has replied to you has in some way shape or form told you that raid wide totems arent a good idea and have given multiple reasons.

#32 EgaL

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 01:01 PM

Which that you like it to build groups around shamans?

Thats the only con: "making a horde raid group becomes easier" ?

I see that as a pro tbh :P

You would still build groups around shamans but in a different approach because you cant put down greater tranquil air totems you have to put down the small ones that affect only your group.

#33 jubelio

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 01:06 PM

It is a lazy fix and It would be better to see an increase in some totems power (not windfury or GoA) instead of seeing them affect more people. Raid wide totem would present problems with tranquil air, your suggestions for avoiding tranquil air issues are inelegant at best.

Edit: A large problem with totems currently is that some that seem like they should be worth while(healing stream, mana stream, stoneskin, stoneclaw to name a few) are way too underpowered to even be worth casting. Another problem is that while the wind totems and water totems have multiple useful incarnations, we see little to no reason to drop fire totems for the majority of all fights we enter in raids. ANOTHER problem is that totem talents are about as attractive as a crack whore who is about to retire. NONE of these problems would be fixed by making totems raid wide.

#34 EgaL

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 01:11 PM

Well it is easy and thats why they are gonna do this most likely -_-

Tranquil air totem wouldnt change but the difference would be that you can be affected from a windfury totem as well.

I do believe that some totems need a buff though (searing totem and so on)

The buff strength of Totems is pretty balanced the only problem is that you cant apply the buff to the whole raid if you want, when on the other hand with blessings it is no problem.

Auras should be applied to the whole raid too I guess to compensate for the greater resitance totems.

EDIT:

You are right those issues will be fixed with the shaman patch hopefully...
only 3 major patches to go...

You sure are pretty fucked up being last. Perhaps you ll get it a week before expansion hits the shelves rejoice!

#35 jubelio

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 01:17 PM

Well it is easy and thats why they are gonna do this most likely

indisputable proof :zoid:

#36 Kalman

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 01:19 PM

Also I highly doubt that GoA and weapon poisons is pushing more dmg than WF, and even if its close now, the gap is going to increase in the future since neither GoA nor poisons scale.

I'd be highly surprised if GoA/poisons provides more DPS than Windfury, honestly.

I can't test it, what with the whole alliance thing, but, math.

Compare.

I MH a Brutality Blade, I sit at around 1315 AP raid buffed (including battleshout). Obviously, this is significantly boosted due to Blessing of Might/Kings, so let's dump 150 AP and call it good, yeah? 1165 AP.

A Windfury attack will thus average 393.2 pre-mitigation damage. As a 20% chance on hit, this equals an average damage boost of 78.65 damage per strike.

GoA 3 provides 77 AP and 2.56% crit. IPVI, with the 3 piece Bloodfang bonus, adds an average of 32.5 damage per strike (not mitigated by armor). 77 AP adds roughly 13.75 damage per strike, mitigated by armor.

Let's assume ~20% armor mitigation, which seems to be about right for raid-debuffed (CoR, FF, and 5x Sunder) bosses.

62.92 damage per strike for Windfury, vs. 43.5 damage per strike for everything but the crit added by GoA/IPVI.

Does 2.56% crit add 19.42 post-mitigation damage per strike?

On my SS, 2.56% crit adds 14.46 pre-mitigated damage per strike.
On my white damage, it adds 8.98 pre-mitigated damage per strike for my MH (BB) and 6.78 for my offhand (Perdition's... we have weird drops, okay?)
Eviscerates are such a minimal amount of my overall strikes they can be considered negligible, but it adds 29.2 pre-mitigated damage per strike.

I SS once every 4 seconds, MH every 1.92, OH every 1.38, and Eviscerate roughly once every 45. This gives a weighted average added damage per strike as:

1/4(14.46)+1/1.92(8.98)+1/1.38(6.78)+1/45(29.2) = 13.85, pre-mitigation.

The math changes slightly for a dagger rogue, in that they get slightly less benefit out of WF due to fewer instants and smaller hits off instants (white damage evens out - more triggers, but for smaller amounts), but not significantly.

WF > GoA + poisons. Gear shouldn't change this much, but I'm entirely too lazy to check.

(This might change for heavily armored mobs, or for DPV, or for heavily poison-talented builds.... but that's grasping at straws.)
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#37 Sebudai

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 01:21 PM

Saying shaman is the least played class was cute, but is fundamentally untrue. If you realize shaman can only be played by 1 faction, then there are more shaman then, druids, priests, and warlocks, and the same as mages. If you also calculated that alliance is the more populated side 60/40, then there are probably roughly the same amount of shamans as paladins.


This pretty much doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. I guess if you are basing this off of total % per faction? Could you explain a little more.

The whole woa is me cry is cute on the blizzard forum, but honestly I don't think many people here care whether you cancel your account or not.


I have no intentions of canceling my account, and I don't expect anyone here to care if I did. I will however express how I feel about certain subjects in threads focused on discussing them. That ok?

I did not intend to turn this thread into something similar to what you would read on the R&D forums. If I did, I apologize. I hate class whining as much as anyone, and I have honestly tried to keep an open mind about these reviews. I just want a little more communication from Blizzard. The shaman forums are such a desolate wasteland of useful discussion and communication. It gets annoying sometimes.

I imagine how much more interesting the game would be if some of our more useless totems(Flametongue, Stoneskin, Windwall, etc) were a little more viable in more raiding situations, and it makes me anxious. The class could be so much more fun and interesting, possibly without affecting balance in any meaningful way.

---

Anyways, back on topic.

As I said earlier, I don't like the idea of raid-wide totems, and I don't think blizzard will ever impliment a system for them.

I do like the pulsing, 30ish second duration buff idea.

I think totems should have a larger radius, cost less mana, and last longer.

I think they need to significantly change every single talent that improves a totem on the shaman talent tree. Most likely by combining a lot of them and increasing the bonus from the talent.

I would really like to see some new totems added, to give us more options and make choosing which totems to use a little more strategic. The +spell damage fire totem is the most common example.
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#38 jubelio

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 01:30 PM

Saying shaman is the least played class was cute, but is fundamentally untrue. If you realize shaman can only be played by 1 faction, then there are more shaman then, druids, priests, and warlocks, and the same as mages. If you also calculated that alliance is the more populated side 60/40, then there are probably roughly the same amount of shamans as paladins.


This pretty much doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. I guess if you are basing this off of total % per faction? Could you explain a little more.

It is no secret that there are tons of shaman. I'm sure someone could quote census statistics, but I am suprised anyone would need to see numbers to be convinced.

Also, you should read other class forums occasionally, blizz is an equal opportunity ignorer. I dont blame them, they have about 5 million customers and every angry customer is on the boards complaining daily. Most classes have more issues than shaman and they have been waiting longer for those bigger fixes.My suggestion to you is to calm down and realize that your class is in a pretty decent position right now.

#39 Wodin

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 01:52 PM

WF > GoA + poisons. Gear shouldn't change this much, but I'm entirely too lazy to check.

(This might change for heavily armored mobs, or for DPV, or for heavily poison-talented builds.... but that's grasping at straws.)

Sup, Kalman. Thanks for running the math your way, since the approach I was taking (normalizing everything into an AP contribution) was ugly as hell.

In addition, even if windfury were suboptimal for rogues, they would still get it, due to the necessity of battleshout. I'd subtract the 128AP delta from (4/5 Imp.) Battleshout -> TSA in your calculations for the Grace of Air portion, as that represents the necessary group composition.

As a side note, we've found DPV to be almost entirely useless due to the "one stack per mob" rule. You can have one person using it, but then it doesn't max out its contribution fast enough. Two people using it, and you end up burning procs left and right.

#40 Sebudai

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 01:52 PM

It is no secret that there are tons of shaman. I'm sure someone could quote census statistics, but I am suprised anyone would need to see numbers to be convinced.


I don't need to see the numbers. I regret making that comment, since it obviously has nothing to do with anything, and isn't accurate. I don't think there are more shaman than priests, warlocks, and mages, though. Maybe on the horde side, but not when you take into account both factions.

Also, you should read other class forums occasionally, blizz is an equal opportunity ignorer. I dont blame them, they have about 5 million customers and every angry customer is on the boards complaining daily. Most classes have more issues than shaman and they have been waiting longer for those bigger fixes.My suggestion to you is to calm down and realize that your class is in a pretty decent position right now.


I actually read the other class forums quite often(more like skim them, looking for something useful). There has recently been quite a bit of communication between Blizzard and the paladins, rogues, mages, druids, and priests(obviously). The shaman forum has had something like 4 blue posts. Ever. Half of which preview a couple of the new Relic's.

Anyways, this has nothing to do with the original topic, and I apologize for derailing the thread with any of my posts.
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