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Blessings>Totems in Raids


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#41 Wodin

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 01:55 PM

rogues

Trust me, you don't want the kinds of posts that the rogue forum has gotten. Really, you don't. They fall into "here's the latest nerfbat", "here's us trying to be warm and fuzzy", and "here's us cherrypicking stupid ideas and shooting them down."

Oh, and there was the whole feedback debacle. That was fun.

#42 Sebudai

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 01:55 PM

Maybe I'm misreading your math, but it looks like you're accounting for Windfury proc'ing from off-hand attacks. Last I knew Windfury only affected the main-hand.

I would also like to see the math for Windfury on a dagger wielding rogue. I've done it myself, and GoA + Poisons came out on top. It's very possible I made some errors, though.

-edit-
The rogue I based my comparison off of uses Blessed Qiraji Pugio and Perdition's Blade. I'm no math wiz and I could have messed up, so I'd like to see the math from someone else.
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#43 Wodin

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 01:59 PM

Hmm. As I was reading it, it was mainhand only, and the only place the offhand entered the calculations was calculating the value of AP and crit. (since the offhand is IP for both a windfury rogue and a GoA rogue).

#44 Kalman

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 02:01 PM

WF > GoA + poisons. Gear shouldn't change this much, but I'm entirely too lazy to check.

(This might change for heavily armored mobs, or for DPV, or for heavily poison-talented builds.... but that's grasping at straws.)

Sup, Kalman. Thanks for running the math your way, since the approach I was taking (normalizing everything into an AP contribution) was ugly as hell.

In addition, even if windfury were suboptimal for rogues, they would still get it, due to the necessity of battleshout. I'd subtract the 128AP delta from (4/5 Imp.) Battleshout -> TSA in your calculations for the Grace of Air portion, as that represents the necessary group composition.

As a side note, we've found DPV to be almost entirely useless due to the "one stack per mob" rule. You can have one person using it, but then it doesn't max out its contribution fast enough. Two people using it, and you end up burning procs left and right.

Yeah, I thought about trying to AP normalize, but it seemed simpler to just convert it into a damage-per-strike equivalent and work from that.

You know, soloing with DPV on, I haven't seen a problem with getting it stacked up to five reasonably fast; the 30% proc rate alone gets it up, and I'm not even 3 piece BF yet (waiting for a MH... still... my bad luck with MH drops is becoming ridiculous). That said, even though it provides pretty good DPS, I stick with IPVI in raids; the minor bonus from DPV isn't worth the debuff slot and (yes, I'm a cheapskate) the extra cost.

Again, I've never played a horde char past level 4, so: what's the interaction between GoA and Battle Shout that I've seen you refer to a couple times?

From what I know of totem mechanics, I don't think there's a simple change for what's *really* wrong with them (mobile fights making them useless). It's simply a fundamental problem with the design, that of a static buff source (see priest complaints re: lightwell for another example of this). I don't see a reason not to make them last a bit longer, though, in order to balance mana consumption for buffing cross-faction. Making them raid-wide would seem to have obvious problems, although possibly some totems could be extended raid-wide (resistance totems, mana tide, etc.) while keeping others (WF, TAT) group-centric.

People complaining about the fact that blessings are better than totems (arguable, but probably true) - honestly? Get over it. Faction imbalances should be something we're used to by now.

A pulsing aura would also help with in/out of range, although it comes with the downside of - if you miss a pulse, you're out of luck for the duration of time in between pulses.

Anyway. I'm alliance, and on this subject, I'm probably full of crap.
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#45 Wodin

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 02:05 PM

If you're getting Grace of Air, you're not getting Battleshout because you're in a Shaman/Rogue/Rogue/Hunter/Hunter group. Warriors get windfury, period. Any small DPS gain the rogue might have would be completely annulled by taking away WF from the group's warrior, since the rage generation is significant.

#46 Kalman

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 02:21 PM

Hmm. As I was reading it, it was mainhand only, and the only place the offhand entered the calculations was calculating the value of AP and crit. (since the offhand is IP for both a windfury rogue and a GoA rogue).

No, I was being an alliance retard and assuming WF worked the same way as sword spec, which (knowing that it takes the place of the MH temp enchant) I should have known better than to do.

Thus.

WF is MH only, adding 62.92 post-mit damage per strike (hence abbreviated DPH, damage per hit). Can WF proc on Eviscerate strikes? I am assuming yes?

IPVI adds 32.5 DPH to the OH, post-mit.

Using the weighted average method from my post:

1/4(62.92)+1/1.92(62.92)+1/1.38(32.5)+1/45(62.92) = 73.44 post-mit DPH for Windfury/IPVI combo.

Let's rework the GOA/IPVI stats in more detail, especially since I didn't take the offhand damage penalty into account when giving my OH crit value (correctly, it should have been 4.89, not 6.78.)

MHauto gets 50.68 post-mit DPH.
OHauto gets 42.35 post-mit DPH (less for non-combat builds)
Evisc gets 55.86 post-mit DPH.
SS gets 55.26 post-mit DPH.

1/4(55.26)+1/1.92(50.68)+1/1.38(42.35)+1/45(55.86) = 72.1 post-mit DPH

Thus, WF still comes out ahead, albeit by a smaller margin.

Give me some time to work out the dagger version.
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#47 Praetorian

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 02:28 PM

I don't understand why paladin Greater Blessings have suddenly become a point of comparison when arguing balance. It wasn't a balance change -- it was a convenience change. It may have had some practical balance effects, but let's not overstate them.

Blessings have always been a single-target buff castable on anyone, like PW:F, MotW, or AI. Those used to be single-cast also, because the game was designed around 5-man content. Rebuffing your group every 30 minutes is no big deal. But if you're one of two druids in a 40-man raid, rebuffing 20 people individually every time there's a wipe? Fuck that. It's not fun. It doesn't make the game harder -- it makes it much more tedious. So they changed it. Those spells can now target 5 people at once (one group). The same was true for paladin blessings, so they changed those. It doesn't make sense to base those around groups since the MT doesn't want to share the BoS that the rogue in his group gets. So they did it around classes -- still averaging 5 targets per cast.

From day one, paladins could bless the whole raid and shaman totems only affected a group. Sure, it might have been inconvenient as hell, but I want to hear an Alliance guild come in here and tell me that they would've let BoK lapse on their tanks and rogues while learning the Twin Emps because "man, recasting all that shit every 5 minutes is so annoying." No. In any situation where it really matters (i.e., not trash, not farming some easy boss) the buffs would be there. Trying to point to Greater Blessings and argue that now shamans need a raid totem makes no sense. Why not give warlocks a raidwide imp? Maybe moonkin would actually be worthwhile if they gave the entire raid +% crit!

Shaman totems are meant to parallel paladin auras, not blessings or judgments. They're meant to have some of the same restrictions. We get ranged elemental DPS, and paladins get buffs and judgments. In a lot of other settings, that's balanced. In the raid game, it's not. But I think people are naive if they expect Blizzard to throw fundamental aspects of class design out the window at this stage of the game.

#48 Kalman

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 02:35 PM

Of course, I also failed to account for crits on WF procs.

And the fact that GoA = no battle shout pretty much kills the argument, anyway.

I'll do daggers anyway, because I'm a filthy completist.
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#49 Kalman

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 02:51 PM

Of course, I also failed to account for crits on WF procs.

And the fact that GoA = no battle shout pretty much kills the argument, anyway.

I'll do daggers anyway, because I'm a filthy completist.

Daggers.

Hypothetical rogue:

1165 AP, 35% crit (from dagger spec.) BQP/DFB combo.

WF:

specials and MH: 20% chance of a proc for:

(103+(1165+315)/14*1.7)*.2*.8*(1+.35) = 61.1 post-mit DPH.

OH: 32.5 DPH from IPVI.

GoA/IPVI:

MHauto: 5.19 post-mit from crit, 10.28 post-mit from AP, 32.5 post-mit from IPVI, totals 47.97 DPH post-mit.

OHauto: 3.98 post-mit from crit, 8.17 post-mit from AP, 32.5 post-mit from IPVI, totals 44.65 DPH post-mit.

BS: 22.9 post-mit from crit, 25.28 post-mit from AP, 32.5 post-mit from IPVI, totals 80.68 DPH post-mit.

Weighted averages:

1/6(61.1)+1/1.3(61.1)+1/1.38(32.5) = 80.73 DPS for WF

1/6(80.68)+1/1.3(47.97)+1/1.38(44.65) = 82.7 DPS for GoA/IPVI

If you account for the AP you lose from losing battle shout, WF comes out far, far ahead. Otherwise yes, GoA comes out very, very slightly ahead of WF for a combat dagger rogue.
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#50 EgaL

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 02:53 PM

Probably you re right Praetorian.
Well but Greater Totems would be a easy and quick fix I dont think it would imbalance the pve game too much in favor of the horde.

Well buffing the whole raid with 5 min buff wasnt effective as a paladin. Half of the raid was no problem though, we always divided the important blessings so that each paladin had to bless 20 ppl (by hitting one button 20 times).

Still those blessings wouldnt prolong through most of the AQ boss encounters and it would ve been impossible(at least very ineffective because blessing 20 ppl who are not standing at one spot to receive blessings ~ 2k-4k mana and approx 30++ secs) for us to reapply them.

With greater blessings in place I really see an imbalance there. This could be fixed with greater totems imho. Instead of coordinating groups you can coordinate shamans which totems they place at which position who places which totem etc.
Please think about it a bit more you would be more flexible it would be a straight forward buff because you essentially GAIN a spell not loosing any spell you had before.

I think this wouldnt destroy the whole class balance and it wouldnt destroy the shaman class nor would it completely change the playstyle of shamans it would affect only the totems you put down (as greater blessings affect only the buffs you cast before combat)

Ask for all auras (eg Aspect of the pack, blood pact etc.) count for the whole raid group... perhaps a max number of people should be affected to avoid 30 ppl clustering in a 30 yard circle around a totem to get that whatever buff... That would be to complex to implement though so it most likely wont be implemented.

And after all why not let all auras (leader of the pack, blood pact, conc aura etc.) affect the whole raid?
Would that really trivialise any given encounter?
I cant think of any tbh.

Edit: Well GoA and WF would be nice for rogues wouldnt it? Your whole discussion would be kinda pointless cuz you could have both buffs with greater totems and dont have any trade off in other groups.

#51 bartolimu

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 03:53 PM

With greater blessings in place I really see an imbalance there. This could be fixed with greater totems imho. Instead of coordinating groups you can coordinate shamans which totems they place at which position who places which totem etc.



I'm going to have to agree with gurg here. Greater Blessings were essentially a convenience fix, not a balance fix. Our priests can get PW:F on a battle resed tank, and paladins could renew BoK or whatever on truly essential personnel before the change. It's not a big deal, it just requires a small amount of attention.

What you're looking for in Greater Totems isn't a convenience fix. It's a straight up overpowering of a mechanic that works just fine as-is. Totems are equivalent to Auras, not blessings. Alliance raiding is more buff-intensive due to Paladins having auras and blessings. Horde raiding is less buff-intensive because Shamans effectively have auras, and that's it. In exchange, we get ranged elemental damage and a few effects Auras don't have.

If you wish to address the "balance issue" of Greater Blessings, you need to do it by changing shamans' elemental damage somehow. AE shocks maybe? Still not as useful in a raid setting.

Please think about it a bit more you would be more flexible it would be a straight forward buff because you essentially GAIN a spell not loosing any spell you had before.

We wouldn't be more flexible, we'd be more powerful. That's a big difference.

I think this wouldnt destroy the whole class balance and it wouldnt destroy the shaman class nor would it completely change the playstyle of shamans it would affect only the totems you put down (as greater blessings affect only the buffs you cast before combat)

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edit: Well GoA and WF would be nice for rogues wouldnt it? Your whole discussion would be kinda pointless cuz you could have both buffs with greater totems and dont have any trade off in other groups.

That's sort of the point. Especially if we take your argument further and apply TSA, LotP etc. to every DPS member of the raid. At that point it trivializes pretty much EVERY encounter in the game.

#52 tenarius

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 04:26 PM

Kalman, you are a calculation machine. I didn't bother even trying the numbers because the outcome seemed obvious, but it actually ends up being closer than I had imagined. This is with current itemization though, and that was ultimately my point - no calculations required to see that regardless of how things now, in the future Windfury will certainly exceed nonscaling buffs.

Bartolimu, I stopped reading Egal's posts on the first page. Seeing what you quote reminds me why.

Gurg~ what happened is that the Greater Blessings change made all the Horde with their heads up their rears able to realize what sort of advantages Alliance actually reap from Paladins. As you said, nothing has changed except perhaps a slight mana efficiency bonus in terms of practicality of Blessings.

#53 Kalman

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 04:55 PM

Kalman, you are a calculation machine. I didn't bother even trying the numbers because the outcome seemed obvious, but it actually ends up being closer than I had imagined. This is with current itemization though, and that was ultimately my point - no calculations required to see that regardless of how things now, in the future Windfury will certainly exceed nonscaling buffs.

Bartolimu, I stopped reading Egal's posts on the first page. Seeing what you quote reminds me why.

Gurg~ what happened is that the Greater Blessings change made all the Horde with their heads up their rears able to realize what sort of advantages Alliance actually reap from Paladins. As you said, nothing has changed except perhaps a slight mana efficiency bonus in terms of practicality of Blessings.

You would not believe how bored I am at work today. Got any other (rogue) situations you want theorycrafted, while I'm at it?
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#54 Sebudai

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 05:17 PM

Cool, thanks for going through the math. It's nice to know for sure.
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#55 Witchdoctor

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 06:01 PM

As far as the shaman is concerned, if it ain't broke, why are we trying to fix it? And why are we trying to balance the two factions anyways? We're unique, and that's how it should be.

And as for the whole WF rogue arguement, GoA is about a million times better. Why? Aggro management.

#56 Praetorian

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 06:04 PM

As far as the shaman is concerned, if it ain't broke, why are we trying to fix it? And why are we trying to balance the two factions anyways? We're unique, and that's how it should be.

And as for the whole WF rogue arguement, GoA is about a million times better. Why? Aggro management.

-whatwhat-

Do you have an alliance alt on the Dragonblight server named "Xal" by chance?

Edit: To make this somewhat constructive... "balance" and "symmetry" are two very different things.

#57 jubelio

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 06:06 PM

And as for the whole WF rogue arguement, GoA is about a million times better. Why? Aggro management.

I dont think I understand why you would say this, the rogue would be getting more white damage attacks, that have less chance to crit than specials and GoA gives approx 2.5% crit rate.

#58 Kalman

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 06:11 PM

As far as the shaman is concerned, if it ain't broke, why are we trying to fix it? And why are we trying to balance the two factions anyways? We're unique, and that's how it should be.

And as for the whole WF rogue arguement, GoA is about a million times better. Why? Aggro management.

Aggro management is not normally difficult for a rogue.

I think they call it Vanish. Yes, yes they do. Learn to use it proactively and aggro management is easy. Playing with kittens easy. Getting a venereal disease from the hotpants of a sorority girl easy.
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#59 tenarius

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 06:16 PM

You would not believe how bored I am at work today. Got any other (rogue) situations you want theorycrafted, while I'm at it?

Actually since this thread already seems to have taken a significant derailment...

I've been combat daggers for a while. For the last several weeks I've been combat daggers with 3/5 Daggerspec and Ruthlessness/Relentless Strikes. Lately I've been wondering whether 5/5 Daggerspec 2/3 Ruthlessness and no Relentless Strikes would be superior. I haven't done any math but my reasoning is that the majority of my damage comes from white, and Daggerspec influences that as well as specials. Ruth/Relent only affects specials. Sure I could give up Blade Flurry and go 2/3 Slice and Dice instead but life without Blade Flurry is not very appealing.

You may well have already done the math on this, but is it really an improvement to have Ruth/Relentless over full Dagger Specialization?

But of course for Witchdoctor the answer is simple, because Dagger Spec results in more aggro!



#60 Hamlet

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 06:21 PM

Blessings have always been a single-target buff castable on anyone, like PW:F, MotW, or AI. Those used to be single-cast also, because the game was designed around 5-man content. Rebuffing your group every 30 minutes is no big deal. But if you're one of two druids in a 40-man raid, rebuffing 20 people individually every time there's a wipe? Fuck that. It's not fun. It doesn't make the game harder -- it makes it much more tedious. So they changed it. Those spells can now target 5 people at once (one group). The same was true for paladin blessings, so they changed those. It doesn't make sense to base those around groups since the MT doesn't want to share the BoS that the rogue in his group gets. So they did it around classes -- still averaging 5 targets per cast.

From day one, paladins could bless the whole raid and shaman totems only affected a group. Sure, it might have been inconvenient as hell, but I want to hear an Alliance guild come in here and tell me that they would've let BoK lapse on their tanks and rogues while learning the Twin Emps because "man, recasting all that shit every 5 minutes is so annoying." No. In any situation where it really matters (i.e., not trash, not farming some easy boss) the buffs would be there. Trying to point to Greater Blessings and argue that now shamans need a raid totem makes no sense. Why not give warlocks a raidwide imp? Maybe moonkin would actually be worthwhile if they gave the entire raid +% crit!

Not entirely true. Dealing with the 5min buff was a nontrivial operation.

A lot of classes can use 4 Blessings (Anyone wants Kings, anyone can use Light, almost everyone wants Salv, everyone wants either Wisdom or Might). To buff to full potential, a raid of 4 or 5 Pallies has some people buffing 40 raid members. So let's say you write of some of the buffs as being frivolous, and pick 2 important ones for each class. Each Paladin is now buffing 20 people, which takes about a minute before the pull (30 or so to buff, 30 to drink). Realistically, a big longer, due to limited people with Kings, people with Improved Blessings, etc.

So, even a boss pull that you're fully preparing for, some raid members are going in with Kings at <4mins. Can you rebuff Kings on the whole raid 4 minutes later? Sure, but takes over a minute of Paladin time, and a huge chunk of mana. So only some people even get Kings for more than 4 minutes of your fight. Salv would have been the same way, if Improved Salvation hadn't been around since the beginning.

Greater Blessings changed the whole picture. Now, buffs were limited by their actual durations and stacking properties, not by the logistics of casting them. Every raid member having 3-4 Blessings is a reality now, where is wasn't before, and this is what the Horde whiners on R&D are picking up on. Like I said in my first post, I'd like to see the logistics of totems ironed out in similar fashion.

-----

Egal: The analogy between Greater Blessings and raid-wide totems just isn't there. Coming in with an idea is nice, but at some point, you have to listen to what basically every person on this thread is telling you.




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