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Warriors, Talents and Tactical Mastery.


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#21 XI-

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 02:37 PM

Slightly OT, but does anyone really hate the way Blizzard is "revamping" classes one-by-one? It just seems like a cheap way to keep users subscribed ("I can't quit yet! They're revamping my class in the next patch!"). I'm not saying that revamping and improving a class is an easy task to accomplish, but I really don't like how Blizzard singles out a class each patch rather than take a more aggregate approach. /shrug

Well, I think their options are either 1 at a time, or everyone would have to wait 2 years. Personally I'd rather wait 2 years, than have to sit through the ebb and flow of the latest uber class, but I'm sure there's plenty of people who feel the opposite way.

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#22 Kytrarewn

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 02:38 PM

Slightly OT, but does anyone really hate the way Blizzard is "revamping" classes one-by-one? It just seems like a cheap way to keep users subscribed ("I can't quit yet! They're revamping my class in the next patch!"). I'm not saying that revamping and improving a class is an easy task to accomplish, but I really don't like how Blizzard singles out a class each patch rather than take a more aggregate approach. /shrug

I somewhat agree with that, as well as the fact that they're making such sweeping changes to classes in one fell swoop, without considering what they're going to do to other classes to balance that out. The hunter rebalance is a key example of that- Since the talent revamp hunters have taking slight-medium nerfs every patch.

Granted, some classes' talent trees are messed up beyond any small changes, and a full "respec granted, trees completely gone" change is the only way to go about fixing things, but, in many cases, small little number tweaks is all that would be required.
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#23 Praetorian

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 02:40 PM

Why was intimidating shout nerfed to be "in line" with other fears? If it's supposed to be in line why does it cost 25% of your available "mana" pool, and break instantly on damage, distinctly different from any other fear in the game.

25 range is hardly analogous to "25% of a mana bar," come on.

And it was nerfed for raid content, both PvE and PvP. One warrior fearing 30 mobs in a PvE zerg event is excessive, as is one warrior charging and fearing in the middle of a 20-man front in AV. I guess you can argue that warriors should be able to do that, but then why not warlocks and priests too?

--

As for the way Blizzard does class revamps, if they are doing it with some vision of balance as their ultimate aim, it's easier by far to only change one point at a time. Sit back, watch for 2-3 months, then nerf the strongest class a bit or buff the weakest. Wait another 2-3 months, and repeat. You could change them all at once, but I think that's just too many variable to properly account for in striving for some semblance of balance.

#24 XI-

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 02:43 PM

25 range is hardly analogous to "25% of a mana bar," come on.

And it was nerfed for raid content, both PvE and PvP. One warrior fearing 30 mobs in a PvE zerg event is excessive, as is one warrior charging and fearing in the middle of a 20-man front in AV. I guess you can argue that warriors should be able to do that, but then why not warlocks and priests too?


That's fine, and but you also have to look at the fact that it breaks instantly on damage. If you were allowed to apply small bits of damage to someone, maybe 500 or so, so my deep wounds didn't instantly break it, it might be alright. Or if they lowered the rage cost, or the cooldown.

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#25 diospadre

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 02:44 PM

I do agree with Xi in that the Int. Shout nerf was horrible and no amount of data or reasoning will make me change my mind.

#26 Wubwub

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 02:46 PM

Few people are happy with their class in it's entirety. This is no surprise. Having those 5 points to spend elsewhere isn't going to help that much anyhow.

#27 Kaubel

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 02:52 PM

For two years now, I've been pretty content playing a druid. That's probably because I'm not a raging, demanding, neck-bearded nerd who expects his video game character to be more powerful than all the others and lives to complain daily about it when it's not.

I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.


#28 Raylen

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 02:53 PM

Let's compound on Intimidating Shout. Does it break on damage? Sometimes. Is it limited to only a set number of targets? Yes. Does it last eight seconds? Yes. Does it cause your current target to be paralyzed for eight seconds? Yes.

Physic Scream: Chance to break on damage? Yes. Limited to only a set number? Yes. Does it last eight seconds? Yes. Does it cause the target to be paralyzed? No but I so wish it did.

So no, it's not distinctly different at all. Except for the cowering in fear part and the cooldown. Also, you have two extra yards on our Physic Scream. Both of ours also are instants compared to the two second cast on Howl of Terror. But they also have 7 extra feared seconds. AND the fear also has a chance to break on damage.

#29 XI-

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 02:53 PM

Few people are happy with their class in it's entirety. This is no surprise. Having those 5 points to spend elsewhere isn't going to help that much anyhow.

It's not just 5 points, or 6 points if you include evocation. Mages are saving 16 points, if they don't spec arcane. The 10 previous points, + the 6. Or in the warrior's case 10 points. Now I've never looked at what you would spec as a mage, nor could a tell you, especially if they add synergy between fire and frost, but as a warrior I'll tell you the ability to go fury/prot with TM would be the ultimate PvE/PvP synergy.

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#30 Wubwub

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 02:54 PM

To be honest, I love my shaman. I am quite happy with how he is, but to claim I am entirely satisfied would be a lie. Our talents are pretty plain, but in some ways I appreciate that. Every time I look at other classes talent tress, especially ones I haven't played at 60, I get a little confused. Every class except Shamans and warriors, really. Druids are pretty simple too, I suppose, but I just go 46 resto. :P

I meant TM, Xi.

#31 Hamlet

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 02:55 PM

They do give minor tweaks to each class every patch. But changes to talent trees aren't something you can parcel up over many patches, giving each class a bit of theirs each time. Class-by-class is the only logical way to do it.

Besides, you want them to be making balance changes in really small increments. Changing one variable at a time, in general, is quite doable. Rvamping at once, in a system as complicated as this, would be as big a project as balancing the game was in the first place. It's not something you can do in a monthly patch.

Remember D2? They tried to adjust balance really aggressively, and all they wound up with was one annoying broken build each time around.

#32 XI-

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 02:57 PM

Let's compound on Intimidating Shout. Does it break on damage? Sometimes. Is it limited to only a set number of targets? Yes. Does it last eight seconds? Yes. Does it cause your current target to be paralyzed for eight seconds? Yes.

Physic Scream: Chance to break on damage? Yes. Limited to only a set number? Yes. Does it last eight seconds? Yes. Does it cause the target to be paralyzed? No but I so wish it did.

So no, it's not distinctly different at all. Except for the cowering in fear part and the cooldown. Also, you have two extra yards on our Physic Scream. Both of ours also are instants compared to the two second cast on Howl of Terror. But they also have 7 extra feared seconds. AND the fear also has a chance to break on damage.

The odds of intim shout not breaking on damage, are roughly equal to that of you soloing c'thun, at least in my personal experience. Psychic scream does not break very often. I don't consider the paralyze, a huge bonus, I suppose its nice for 1v1 in PvE so your target doesn't run into mobs. But you omitted a very important part. Cooldown. Psychic scream is on a 30 second cooldown. Intimidating shout's cooldown is 6 times as long.

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#33 Wubwub

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 02:58 PM

Remember D2? They tried to adjust balance really aggressively, and all they wound up with was one annoying broken build each time around.

The perils of balance. The issue with gear dependant classes scaling better than ability dependant classes has always been an issue in every game. Unfortunately, attempting to give ability classes a way to be on par with gear classes tends to create it's own issue.

If you scale up, shit breaks. If you scale down, people whine. Though they whine even if you scale up.

Whine people, whine.

#34 Raylen

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 02:58 PM

No, I noted the cooldown. Do you bother reading, Xi?

And yes, Physic Scream breaks far too often. I've seen many SW:P ticks instantly break the fear. And no, they did not use their trinkets.

#35 Praetorian

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:01 PM

Psychic Scream is a defensive tool. Priests are cloth casters and are squishy. If a priest has 4 people beating on him, he's dead in two seconds unless he pops that fear. If it has a long cooldown, then his death is inevitable.

If a warrior has 4 people beating on him, he's probably pretty happy (assuming it's group PvP and not a 4v1).

#36 XI-

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:01 PM

To be honest, I love my shaman. I am quite happy with how he is, but to claim I am entirely satisfied would be a lie. Our talents are pretty plain, but in some ways I appreciate that. Every time I look at other classes talent tress, especially ones I haven't played at 60, I get a little confused. Every class except Shamans and warriors, really. Druids are pretty simple too, I suppose, but I just go 46 resto. :P

I meant TM, Xi.

But as a resto shaman wouldn't you appreciate not feeling forced to sink 10 points in eventide, and mana spring? With the new rank of BoW hopefully the spring talents will be changed so the bought skill is the same as it is with talents now, eventide is de-linked from mana tide. And most of the totem talents are terrible.

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#37 Praetorian

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:02 PM

But as a resto shaman wouldn't you appreciate not feeling forced to sink 10 points in eventide, and mana spring?

Haha.

In EJ a "resto shaman" is one with 30 points who has Purification. Mana Tide is a piece of shit and no one has it.

Edit: Obviously, yes, if it were a 21pt talent I'd get it gladly. And yes, it should be delinked from those awful talents. But no one feels "forced" to put points there, because we simply choose not to do it.

#38 Wubwub

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:03 PM

But as a resto shaman wouldn't you appreciate not feeling forced to sink 10 points in eventide, and mana spring? With the new rank of BoW hopefully the spring talents will be changed so the bought skill is the same as it is with talents now, eventide is de-linked from mana tide. And most of the totem talents are terrible.

First off, I am not forced. I have never had mana tide, except on the PTR. I don't even want to.

Secondly, I have a little more raiding experience than most, and I'm quite happy to spec into manatide lately. I hope 1.12 brings good things. : /

In fact, it would be hard to express that to a shaman, since there is nothing I feel forced into speccing.. Everything that is considered a talent obligation is welcomed.

#39 XI-

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:04 PM

Psychic Scream is a defensive tool. Priests are cloth casters and are squishy. If a priest has 4 people beating on him, he's dead in two seconds unless he pops that fear. If it has a long cooldown, then his death is inevitable.

If a warrior has 4 people beating on him, he's probably pretty happy (assuming it's group PvP and not a 4v1).

Sure, assuming I always use my fear when I'm being attacked, how about when I'm trying to save someone else, and it's completely wasted because 10 seconds ago I happened to crit them with a whirlwind. I don't think priest fear should be nerfed, I do think warlock fear needs to be toned down slightly in terms of the damage you can take before it breaks, or it needs to be standardized instead of sometimes taking very little, and sometimes taking over 6k.

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#40 XI-

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:08 PM

But as a resto shaman wouldn't you appreciate not feeling forced to sink 10 points in eventide, and mana spring?

Haha.

In EJ a "resto shaman" is one with 30 points who has Purification. Mana Tide is a piece of shit and no one has it.

Edit: Obviously, yes, if it were a 21pt talent I'd get it gladly. And yes, it should be delinked from those awful talents. But no one feels "forced" to put points there, because we simply choose not to do it.

I think that's the point though. If any class goes say, 30 points in a tree, and doesn't take the 31 point talent, isn't something wrong with tree design or talents in some fashion?

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