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Warriors, Talents and Tactical Mastery.


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#41 Wubwub

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:09 PM

I think that's the point though. If any class goes say, 30 points in a tree, and doesn't take the 31 point talent, isn't something wrong with tree design or talents in some fashion?

You are talking to a shaman.

We have 4 31 point talents.

You are a god damned retard if you have any of them.

Edit for clarification: Yes. No. Maybe. It depends, really.

#42 Praetorian

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:12 PM

I think that's the point though. If any class goes say, 30 points in a tree, and doesn't take the 31 point talent, isn't something wrong with tree design or talents in some fashion?

Yes. I have often said that shamans do not have trees. We have lines. It just depends which ones you want to go down. There are maybe five viable shaman specs, and they all involve the same talents, pretty much. I'm not going to suggest for a second that shaman talents aren't a joke. Just responding to the notion that we're forced to use mana tide. :P

#43 Wubwub

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:14 PM

30/0/21
0/30/21
0/0/30

3 specs.

I almost forgot 20/31/0 !

Well there is also the 0/5+/31+ build.

#44 Hamlet

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:15 PM

I'm generally quite happy as a Mage. In all honesty, all I really hope for in the talent review is that they shuffle some stuff around. Anything, really. I just want my character-building decisions to be fresh. Those Priests looked like they were having a lot of fun right after the new trees were announced. Everyone secretly hopes that one day they'll long and things that were mundane will suddenly be novel again, and class changes are a rare opportunity for that. Hopefully the Priest changes indicate that Blizz is getting a bit more comfortable with making meaningful changes, but the "mages are fine" tone they've always had has made me nervous that they won't do very much interesting.

My only complaint about Mages has nothing to do with power level, just with a lack of diversity in good builds. A lot of people try to use interesting builds--I've been trying hard to come up with a tri-spec build for raids--but ultimately you face the decision that if you stray from a few particular choices, you're choosing novelty over pure utility. It shouldn't have to be that way.

Evocation is great example of something that should be made a class skill (more so than IAE). No build without Evo is going to be more useful in raids than any build with Evo. It changes the whole dynamic of the class by removing mana as a limiting factor in a huge number of situations. Imagine if, say, Feign Death were a talent. IAE you can give up and still take your build seriously (though it's a stretch). If you go 40/11 Frost, your decked-out Blizzard is often making itself rather useful while the other mages are casting IAE. Give up Evo, however, and while everyone else is going through their second mana bar, you're sitting there wanding, talking about how you could be using both Fire and Frost spells effectively.

Tactical Mastery seems more like IAE. If you don't spec it, there are ways to patch over that utility in practical situations. It lets you do a few things you couldn't do before, but doensn't fundamentally affect the scope of the class.

#45 Wubwub

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:18 PM

With any luck there will be a viable tri-spec for mages in 1.11. Still, you talk about lack of diversity again. Talking about lack of diversity around a shaman is like a security comparing his job to a police officer.

#46 XI-

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:19 PM

Tactical Mastery seems more like IAE. If you don't spec it, there are ways to patch over that utility in practical situations. It lets you do a few things you couldn't do before, but doensn't fundamentally affect the scope of the class.


Sure you chase mobs while they eat through raid members, as you hit the mob for 6 rage, 6 rage, 6 rage, :P.

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#47 Zoid

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:19 PM

I think that's the point though. If any class goes say, 30 points in a tree, and doesn't take the 31 point talent, isn't something wrong with tree design or talents in some fashion?

Lightwell is a piece of garbage. I've see a lot of 1.10 priest builds with 30 points in holy and 21 in discipline.

Blizzard has said repeatedly that the idea behind they 31 point talents is that they're not supposed to be some godly must have. Just something that makes the build uniquely different by specing into it.

#48 Wubwub

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:20 PM

Lolwell.

#49 XI-

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:22 PM

I think that's the point though. If any class goes say, 30 points in a tree, and doesn't take the 31 point talent, isn't something wrong with tree design or talents in some fashion?

Lightwell is a piece of garbage. I've see a lot of 1.10 priest builds with 30 points in holy and 21 in discipline.

Blizzard has said repeatedly that the idea behind they 31 point talents is that they're not supposed to be some godly must have. Just something that makes the build uniquely different by specing into it.

I don't think it should be some godly must have, but when you're weighing talent options, and you say, this 21 point talent is better than this 31 point talent, what's the point? What's going to happen when the expansion comes, and talents are expanded to 61 points, are we all going to be 30/31 or some fashion of that.

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#50 Graham

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:23 PM

I don't think it should be some godly must have, but when you're weighing talent options, and you say, this 21 point talent is better than this 31 point talent, what's the point? What's going to happen when the expansion comes, and talents are expanded to 61 points, are we all going to be 30/31 or some fashion of that.

Well, unless the last 10 points in one of the trees is simply amazing, I guarantee you'll see a lot of 0/30/31 and 30/0/31 druids.

#51 Thrillho

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:24 PM

It's not just 5 points, or 6 points if you include evocation. Mages are saving 16 points, if they don't spec arcane. The 10 previous points, + the 6. Or in the warrior's case 10 points. Now I've never looked at what you would spec as a mage, nor could a tell you, especially if they add synergy between fire and frost, but as a warrior I'll tell you the ability to go fury/prot with TM would be the ultimate PvE/PvP synergy.

mages should get presence of mind as a class skill because everyone has it imo

#52 XI-

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:25 PM


I don't think it should be some godly must have, but when you're weighing talent options, and you say, this 21 point talent is better than this 31 point talent, what's the point? What's going to happen when the expansion comes, and talents are expanded to 61 points, are we all going to be 30/31 or some fashion of that.

Well, unless the last 10 points in one of the trees is simply amazing, I guarantee you'll see a lot of 0/30/31 and 30/0/31 druids.

I'm absolutely sure you will, and ton of 30/31 rogues, and 31/30 warriors. Why wouldn't you have AR, and SF, or MS+Flurry. If the 31 point talents aren't a must have, how do you scale beyond them? Merely by making the higher tier talents that good, that you take something like lightwell to fill a talent point?

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#53 subscience

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:26 PM

Blizzard has said repeatedly that the idea behind they 31 point talents is that they're not supposed to be some godly must have. Just something that makes the build uniquely different by specing into it.

What makes a 31/20 build more "uniquely different" than a 30/21 build? They're both uniquely different. It just so happens that many classes have such shitty 31 point talents that a 30/21 build offers much, much more (e.g. 30 Fire / 21 Arcane vs. 31 Fire / 20 Arcane).

#54 jubelio

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:26 PM

Evocation is great example of something that should be made a class skill (more so than IAE). No build without Evo is going to be more useful in raids than any build with Evo.

Following this logic, innervate and maybe even natures swiftness should be class skills as well.

#55 Kaubel

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:26 PM

Hey now.

Someone claimed to have seen a lightwell last night and said it was cool looking. I don't believe it. Not that it isn't cool looking but that someone actually has that talent. Snuffleupagus, I say.

I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.


#56 Krag

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:27 PM

Lightwell is a piece of garbage. I've see a lot of 1.10 priest builds with 30 points in holy and 21 in discipline.

Someone popped a Lightwell last Nef kill and I thought I had a graphical glitch or something until I got around to hovering over it :blink:

#57 Praetorian

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:28 PM

Lightwell is a piece of garbage. I've see a lot of 1.10 priest builds with 30 points in holy and 21 in discipline.

Someone popped a Lightwell last Nef kill and I thought I had a graphical glitch or something until I got around to hovering over it :blink:

Lightwell might be useful if you run out of Elune Stones and Wood and want a nice "tank stand here" beacon.

#58 Raylen

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:29 PM

Hey now.

Someone claimed to have seen a lightwell last night and said it was cool looking. I don't believe it. Not that it isn't cool looking but that someone actually has that talent. Snuffleupagus, I say.

Thad in LoH dropped one on our late night Emeriss kill. This is one of the few things I remember from this weekend.

#59 Graham

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:30 PM

Hey now.

Someone claimed to have seen a lightwell last night and said it was cool looking. I don't believe it. Not that it isn't cool looking but that someone actually has that talent. Snuffleupagus, I say.

That was me, and I almost reloaded my UI before I moused over it.

#60 subscience

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 03:38 PM

Evocation is great example of something that should be made a class skill (more so than IAE). No build without Evo is going to be more useful in raids than any build with Evo.

Following this logic, innervate and maybe even natures swiftness should be class skills as well.

Precisely. Where do you draw the line of what is "necessity" and what merits the use of talent points?




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