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Feral DPS Discussion


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#21 Gestalt

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 06:39 PM

Excellent guide btw Murna.
I was really wondering what the optimal DPS cycle/priority list would be when using Berserk for 2 situations. (or if it even changes at all from the standard priority list) First being XT Hardmode on the Heart, secondly during any other boss fight such as Vesax where you are using it multiple times.

Would it be best to have a full 5cp savage roar up before popping berserk or does it matter? Before using berserk, is it best to have full energy? Should you be using ferocious bite during the berserk cycle? How about rip, rake, or I have read of just straight shred burn ignoring all else?

#22 Boevis

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 07:22 PM

I prefer refreshing Savage Roar during the Berserk, else excess combo points feel wasted, so having 5cp up just before that seems stupid.

This being the guide for dummies ... Berserk as soon as it's off cooldown and so is TF. The differences on exactly when is going to come down to a matter of seconds (much like when to FB) Having said that, I think that "If you get to use more than 1 Berserk in a battle, once it's off cooldown and so is TF, after a FB, use TF and Berserk" is a pretty good bylaw on Feral Cycles. SR and Rip will both need refreshing soon, so your chances of wasting CP's is practically nil.

Heart Phases/Storm Power (or some other time period where you need to burst, like the Animus) aside, never Berserk during a Bloodlust

#23 Cliffjumper

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 12:47 AM

Excellent guide btw Murna.
I was really wondering what the optimal DPS cycle/priority list would be when using Berserk for 2 situations. (or if it even changes at all from the standard priority list) First being XT Hardmode on the Heart, secondly during any other boss fight such as Vesax where you are using it multiple times.

Would it be best to have a full 5cp savage roar up before popping berserk or does it matter? Before using berserk, is it best to have full energy? Should you be using ferocious bite during the berserk cycle? How about rip, rake, or I have read of just straight shred burn ignoring all else?


As a personal preference, I like to put up that Roar prior to heart phase/Animus. Especially for the heart, where your Roar will be up for the entire duration that the heart is out, I pop Berserk and put up a 5CP rip on the heart (usually Mangle Rake Shred and if necessary, another Shred) as soon as I can, and then spam 5CP FBs for the rest of the phase while keeping debuffs up. Ferals and rogues should generally top heart meters, due to the power of Berserk/Adrenaline Rush. After I did a few attempts, I got this rotation down pretty well and it hasn't failed me at all. Animus I don't have quite as many attempts in on, but we usually hold Bloodlust for a bit when he pops, and I usually Berserk pretty soon after he pops in order to help get him into the low health portion so our low-health-wrecker DPS classes can burn him hard. I tend not to FB Animus at a fast rate due to the slightly longer time he is out.

Long story short, I prefer starting both those phases out with 5CP Roars from the main bosses to make getting and holding my debuffs up at the start of the fight a little easier.

#24 nightcrowler

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 05:48 AM

@Murna:


[TABLE]Slot |Item
Back |Drape of Faceless General
Chest |Conqueror's Nightsong Rainments
Feet |Footpads of Silence(icewalker enchant)
Ring 1 |Brann’s Signet Ring
Head |Conqueror's Nightsong Headguard
Legs |Leggards of Cunning Deception
Hands |Conqueror's Nightsong Handgrips
Neck |Pendulum of Infinity
Shoulders |Conqueror's Nightsong Shoulderpads
Trinket 1 |Blood of the Old god
Trinket 2 |Mjolnir Runestone
Weapon |Dreambinder
Waist |Soul-Devouring Cinch
Ring 2 |Band of Lights
Wrist |Solar Bindings
[/TABLE]


The BiS gear in my main post is not yet updated, there wasn't Dreambinder when I made it.

#25 bloodcurdler

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 05:07 PM

As posted many times, thank you very much for this thread Murna. A question/request i have, is it possible to get separate BiS list for 10man Hard and 25 regular Ulduar? I have had conversations with other druids at different raiding stages and we cant agree on what one should be collecting. I have seen these lists for mage and ret pally classes but only the one posted here for druids

#26 Anubisck

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 06:41 PM

How much dps improve is hysteria ?

Is there a spreadsheet or a simulation to give exact data.

#27 Kazanir

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 06:58 PM

How much dps improve is hysteria ?

Is there a spreadsheet or a simulation to give exact data.


Feral By Night is the simulator. This is a dumb question though -- Hysteria is a 20% DPS increase for 30 seconds. How much it improves your DPS or damage done over the course of a fight will of course depend on how much DPS you were already doing.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.

You can come with me. I can protect you.

#28 Murna

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 07:14 PM

Hysteria is exactly 20% more DPS.
Berserk gives 50% reduced energy costs. So it would be 50% more yellow damage, but on the other hand we waste a lot of Combopoints during berserk.

So assuming you do 6k DPS, 30% of your damage is autohit.
Than you would do approx 35% more damage during berserk, which is 8100 DPS.
So Berserk + Hysteria would boost your 6k DPS to 9720 DPS.
That's of course just a rough estimation.

Concerning your rotation during berserk: There are of course different ways.
On occasions, where you've got damage enhancing effects (like storm cloud on hodir or especially heart on XT), try to make a 5 CP roar before and then start Berserk (always with Tiger's fury!!!) and spam shred, while maintaining mangle and rake. You should not need to refresh Savage roar here.

During other bosses. try to FB before Berserk. Because after FB you normally struggle to keep your other effects up and running, berserk can help you here to stablizie your rip, mangle, rake and Savage roar uptime.

And remember: ALWAYS TF + Berserk (you can use a macro)


I updated the BiS gear list and put them in the "normal" order. I also showed the gems used.
I will try to post different BiS gear sets tonight, containing only 10man loot or only easymode loot. Also, a pre-raid set shall be included.

#29 ramenchef

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 07:39 PM

That BiS gear list seems a few weeks old.

[TABLE]Slot |Item
Back |Drape of Faceless General
Chest |Conqueror's Nightsong Rainments
Feet |Footpads of Silence(icewalker enchant)
Ring 1 |Brann’s Signet Ring
Head |Conqueror's Nightsong Headguard
Legs |Leggards of Cunning Deception
Hands |Conqueror's Nightsong Handgrips
Neck |Pendulum of Infinity
Shoulders |Conqueror's Nightsong Shoulderpads
Trinket 1 |Comet's Trail
Trinket 2 |Mjolnir Runestone
Weapon |Dreambinder
Waist |Soul-Devouring Cinch
Ring 2 |Band of Lights
Wrist |Fluxing Energy Coils
[/TABLE]

This would be the most updated BiS gear list with what is known. If anyone knows a better gearset, please let me know.

#30 Anubisck

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 08:09 PM

In a 3 min. fight a the dmg boost during beserk and Hysteria would evolve in a total of 6595 average dps. I was hoping a little more.


It is not mandatory to use Berserk with TF, you need to have high energy 70-80. The TF buff fades as soon as you hit berserk. The only reason to use TF with Berserk ist when at low Energy.

#31 a civilian

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 10:45 PM

Berserk gives 50% reduced energy costs. So it would be 50% more yellow damage, but on the other hand we waste a lot of Combopoints during berserk.


50% reduced energy cost would be 100% increased yellow damage. However, berserk would be worth more than that even, because it doubles the value of your previously pooled energy as well. But then there are the mitigating factors: berserk doesn't double the value of clearcasts (worth about a fourth of total energy regeneration with 2t8 and a high gear level), berserk doesn't make dots run any faster, and (for the most part) you can't ferocious bite during berserk.

I just checked a few Ignis / hard XT logs (6 instances of berserk, but there wasn't a high variance) and my damage per time during berserk (no hysteria) was 50-60% above the average for the fight.

#32 Boevis

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 11:17 PM

In a 3 min. fight a the dmg boost during beserk and Hysteria would evolve in a total of 6595 average dps. I was hoping a little more.


It is not mandatory to use Berserk with TF, you need to have high energy 70-80. The TF buff fades as soon as you hit berserk. The only reason to use TF with Berserk ist when at low Energy.


Tiger's Fury Awards 60 Energy and a +80 Damage bonus for 6 seconds, you can treat that as 6 GCD potentially. When not used during Berserk, 6 seconds is 60 Energy + 60 from TF + 40 "stored" = 160 energy, at most that's 4 abilities (with 2 not being shreds) plus the potential for OOC Procs (~33% chance to occur in that 6 second window depending on haste). When used with Berserk, you lose a GCD from activating berserk, but because of the effective doubling of your energy, you'll be using a special attack every GCD.

Guaranteed 5 Abilities versus a weaker 4+chance for more. True, it's not a massive increase, a whopping 1.56 DPS increase getting an extra shred in there, but you need to Berserk at high energy, and the likelyhood of having high energy sometime other than TF is very odd.

#33 a civilian

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 11:30 PM

Tiger's Fury Awards 60 Energy and a +80 Damage bonus for 6 seconds, you can treat that as 6 GCD potentially. When not used during Berserk, 6 seconds is 60 Energy + 60 from TF + 40 "stored" = 160 energy, at most that's 4 abilities (with 2 not being shreds) plus the potential for OOC Procs (~33% chance to occur in that 6 second window depending on haste). When used with Berserk, you lose a GCD from activating berserk, but because of the effective doubling of your energy, you'll be using a special attack every GCD.

Guaranteed 5 Abilities versus a weaker 4+chance for more. True, it's not a massive increase, a whopping 1.56 DPS increase getting an extra shred in there, but you need to Berserk at high energy, and the likelyhood of having high energy sometime other than TF is very odd.


But as the post claims, tiger's fury fades when you gain berserk. (I didn't know this, but I just tested and it is indeed the case.)

Edit: I checked some old combat logs and this seems to have been a 3.1 change.

#34 Ja7us

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 09:02 AM

It's also worthwhile to note that if you use berserk while TF is not up, you have to use it with at least 15 seconds left on the TF cooldown or you'll be losing potential energy (since the cooldown will finish but you can't use it until berserk finishes).

#35 DataPhreak

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 12:47 AM

Perhaps I missed this somewhere, (Not likely, as i've been trying to find this info for weeks), and perhaps it doesn't really matter, but what about weapon stats? I'm trying to figure out what weapon type i should be looking for to put on my cat. From what i've seen, weapon attack speed doesn't seem to factor in to kitty or bear attack speed. So when picking a weapon for DPS, not taking character attribute bonuses into account, should i prioritize min/max per hit, or DPS score in the weapon tooltip? I.E. Dagger or 2h mace, which is better on average?

#36 Boevis

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 02:54 AM

Listen, just because this is the "for dummies" thread, doesn't mean you should be asking questions that can be found on wowwiki.

You get AP in feral forms equal to the DPS of the weapon minus 54.7 times 14. You can see this number on any item with higher than 54.7 DPS.

As for which stats are better, go read the Feralbynight or Cat DPS Rotation threads.

#37 Murna

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 11:46 AM

Weapon - Berserking > Mongoose > Massacre > Executioner



I'm not so sure about this anymore.
Firstly, I read somewhere, that Mongoose is sometimes better than Berserking.
With my current gear setting, RAWR shows that executioner is best! I've got 497 ArP (with Hearty Rhino already).

What are your thoughts about weapon enchants?

#38 Fuzzywuz

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 04:03 PM

I'm not so sure about this anymore.
Firstly, I read somewhere, that Mongoose is sometimes better than Berserking.
With my current gear setting, RAWR shows that executioner is best! I've got 497 ArP (with Hearty Rhino already).

What are your thoughts about weapon enchants?



As far as I know, nightcrowlers work has the best up to date information about enchants. About halfway down his first post, he has a table comparing relative DPS values of our weapon enchants with respect to your gear level (he assumes Ulduar BiS).

http://elitistjerks....imulation_tool/

For brevity's sake, here's the order from best to worst: Mongoose--->Berserking---->Massacre---->Executioner

#39 MegaVolt

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 11:13 PM

Armor is a stat with diminishing returns. Meaning: the more Armor you have, the worse it gets in terms of damage reduction percentage. The first 1000 armor are far more valuable, than the last 1000 armor. That is the reason, that ArPen scales better than linear. When you have only a little bit ArPen, you reduce your target's armor only a little bit - but we know that the last 1000 armor are not that important. But if you manage to gather more ArPen, you will reduce your target's armor more and more, which gets more and more valuable.
Short story: ArPen scales better than linear - the more you have, the better each point of it becomes.


From the Wowwiki:

However, in terms of absolute time to live with respect to melee attacks, armor has no diminishing return effect. Given a constant melee DPS amount, each additional point of armor (whether it be from 0 to 1 or from 30000 to 30001) will increase the tank's time to live by the same effective amount.


How does this fit? Armor for tanks does not have diminishing returns (in time to live), the same should hold true for the boss (again: in total time to live).

#40 Boevis

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 01:23 AM

Because people are very bad at describing things.
Assuming standard Boss with 5x Sunder and FF (and that I can do math)
A = 8089 - 7774*ArP% (caps at 100%)
DR = A/(A+15232.5)
0% = 34.68% DR you do Damage * .6532
10% = 32.43% DR you do D * .6757 (.0225 more)
20% = 30.02% DR you do D * .6998 (.0241 more)

So as you gain more ArP each point increases your DPS by more than the last point

The Armor Doesn't Diminish argument comes from Time to live. If you have 100k health, and are taking 10k dps, your TTL is 10 seconds. With 30.02% DR, you instead are taking 6998 DPS giving you a TTL of 14.29. With 32.43% this becomes 14.8 (.51 change). With 34.68% this becomes 15.31 (.51 change)

Effectively, Armor, and Armor Pen both scale linearly in regards to TTL, but in terms of DPS, the lower the armor, the more each amount of armor you remove is worth. I hope that makes sense.




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