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Feral DPS Discussion


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#41 MegaVolt

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 02:22 AM

Because people are very bad at describing things.
Assuming standard Boss with 5x Sunder and FF (and that I can do math)
A = 8089 - 7774*ArP% (caps at 100%)
DR = A/(A+15232.5)
0% = 34.68% DR you do Damage * .6532
10% = 32.43% DR you do D * .6757 (.0225 more)
20% = 30.02% DR you do D * .6998 (.0241 more)

So as you gain more ArP each point increases your DPS by more than the last point

The Armor Doesn't Diminish argument comes from Time to live. If you have 100k health, and are taking 10k dps, your TTL is 10 seconds. With 30.02% DR, you instead are taking 6998 DPS giving you a TTL of 14.29. With 32.43% this becomes 14.8 (.51 change). With 34.68% this becomes 15.31 (.51 change)

Effectively, Armor, and Armor Pen both scale linearly in regards to TTL, but in terms of DPS, the lower the armor, the more each amount of armor you remove is worth. I hope that makes sense.


Thanks that makes sense. So in the end it's basic math ;)
TTL = HP / DPS. TTL will decrease linear with ArP and therefor DPS has to increase more then linear.

#42 bloodcurdler

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 03:14 PM

For the BiS list, what would i use for an idol? Currently i am the only feral druid in our raids and we have no mangle bots :( I am currently using Idol of the Ravenous Beast, but would i be better off switching to Idol of the Corruptor when i get it? Or just saving that for bear form?

#43 Murna

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 03:28 PM

Your question is covered in my guide already

Some questions often asked:

Which idol should I wear?
If you have to mangle yourself, is BiS for you. If not, then it depends on your ArP. If you are below approx 250 ArP, would be your choice, above that the becomes better. But actually the Rip and Shred idol both grant very similar DPS - the difference is really low.



#44 Scrufola

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 01:41 PM

A small correction. Curse of Recklessness does no longer exist, the armor reduce was rolled into Curse of Weakness.

Doesn't change anything as it's still a damage loss for the warlock and could be applied by any lock.

#45 Crucial288

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 02:15 PM

Alright, i run into this situation quite a few times recently, It might be because of the amount of combo points i refresh my SR with or the time left on it already when i do, but quite often after a FB for example, I would have 5 CPs when both rip and SR are about to expire (~10 seconds).

So then i wonder, would it be worth refreshing SR early and having a few seconds more of rip downtime, or rather wait and refresh rip, then have a second or 2 of SR downtime before i get another combo point to cast it?

#46 shuruppak

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 05:12 PM

I'm wondering about the Relative value of ArP if you dont have a warrior tank in the raid to sunder. does that push the ArP soft cap up by 20%?

#47 Murna

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 05:26 PM

No it doesn't push the soft-cap
When you have 100% Armor ignore, you ignore, of course, 100% of your target's armor.
Sunder or Faerie Fire would make no difference.

#48 Jone

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 07:25 PM

No it doesn't push the soft-cap
When you have 100% Armor ignore, you ignore, of course, 100% of your target's armor.
Sunder or Faerie Fire would make no difference.


Please read the armor pen discussion from the Combat Ratings at Level 80 thread pages 17 to 19. Though you're right that sunder doesn't affect the ArPen soft cap, it's not for the reason you're thinking. If you have 100% armor penetration from ar pen rating on gear, you ignore roughly 80% of a level 83 boss's armor, but sunder and FF will still increase your DPS because they reduce the boss's armor before your 81% effectiveness cap is applied. I'm sure we all agree that Blizzard found a pretty silly way of phrasing it when "100% penetration" doesn't mean 100% of boss armor is actually ignored. Really, read the thread, there are even graphs of what damage reduction you'll see with a given % armor pen and subset of armor debuffs.

#49 Gallivant

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 05:25 PM

Regarding the trending of ArP --

I am sitting with about 250-300 ArP in gear alone. With gemming for it, I am getting near 450. I have the Grim Toll as well. According to this write up, ArP is the most useful stat for my gear level (5/5 Conq).

That being said, I am still seeing many feral dps running around stacking Agi over ArP (at the same gear level). From what I am seeing, in the same environment, with the same gear, they are coming out on the DPS meters much higher than me.

Rotations are spot on the same.

Am I missing something here?

#50 Fuzzywuz

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 07:37 PM

Regarding the trending of ArP --

I am sitting with about 250-300 ArP in gear alone. With gemming for it, I am getting near 450. I have the Grim Toll as well. According to this write up, ArP is the most useful stat for my gear level (5/5 Conq).

That being said, I am still seeing many feral dps running around stacking Agi over ArP (at the same gear level). From what I am seeing, in the same environment, with the same gear, they are coming out on the DPS meters much higher than me.

Rotations are spot on the same.

Am I missing something here?


As far as the current theory is concerned, once you reach the trinket soft cap on ArP (556), you want to start gemming agility (while maintaining the soft cap, of course). It's certainly possible to do well by simply gemming agility because you end up with a broader and consequently higher range of potential DPS than if you had gemmed ArP (Nightcrowlers work is a worthwhile read, the section about DPS dispersion is about halfway down his OP). Also, there is a school of thought that values gemming agility on fights were burst DPS is important (like yogg).

Much of your DPS is determined by factors outside of your control (RNG, raid comp, boss strat). Simply because one person does well gemming agility does not mean that you will also do well in that setup--it could be that he's getting chained hysteria, his raid setup caters towards melee DPS instead of caster DPS, and he has a mangle bot (which you may not). His rotation might be 'looser', in which case he has a lower margin of error when it comes to CP generation and he needs the extra crit to maintain a correct rotation. He could have simply gotten lucky, had great RNG and consequently, great DPS. You should be choosing your gems based upon what your raid gives you in terms of composition and strategy--what works for you is more important than what works for someone else.

If you upload your combat logs to world of logs, you can look at a graph that shows you where buffs and debuffs such as rip, rake, and SR fell off, where you were clipping rip/rake, and the DPS dispersion that you experienced on a given fight--all would be useful for you to identify exactly what you can improve on in your gemming and rotation.

#51 Gallivant

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 10:24 PM

As far as the current theory is concerned, once you reach the trinket soft cap on ArP (556), you want to start gemming agility (while maintaining the soft cap, of course). It's certainly possible to do well by simply gemming agility because you end up with a broader and consequently higher range of potential DPS than if you had gemmed ArP (Nightcrowlers work is a worthwhile read, the section about DPS dispersion is about halfway down his OP). Also, there is a school of thought that values gemming agility on fights were burst DPS is important (like yogg).

Much of your DPS is determined by factors outside of your control (RNG, raid comp, boss strat). Simply because one person does well gemming agility does not mean that you will also do well in that setup--it could be that he's getting chained hysteria, his raid setup caters towards melee DPS instead of caster DPS, and he has a mangle bot (which you may not). His rotation might be 'looser', in which case he has a lower margin of error when it comes to CP generation and he needs the extra crit to maintain a correct rotation. He could have simply gotten lucky, had great RNG and consequently, great DPS. You should be choosing your gems based upon what your raid gives you in terms of composition and strategy--what works for you is more important than what works for someone else.

If you upload your combat logs to world of logs, you can look at a graph that shows you where buffs and debuffs such as rip, rake, and SR fell off, where you were clipping rip/rake, and the DPS dispersion that you experienced on a given fight--all would be useful for you to identify exactly what you can improve on in your gemming and rotation.


Thank you for that Fuz.

At this time, there is only one Feral DPS in our raid, so no such mangle bot exists -- so I pick up that link. I could not tell you 100% if he did or did not have a mangle bot in his raids. That may be the separation right there. I am still "hearing" of cats doing top 3 DPS even without Mangle bots while gemming agility on such fights as Ignis and Hodir. There is still movement to be considered so that extra burst may be what puts them over the top.

I mean, is this the way to rule it :: ArP > Agi in stationary fights such as XT and Agi > ArP in movement fights? Because with that mode of thinking, Agi would be a better base because Ulduar is very movement based (at least for the most part). So, burst is detrimental to a certain end.

Just some thoughts that I had rolling around :)

#52 Guest_5h0r7y_*

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 08:19 PM

Hi, I just had a quick question. Say you have savage roar up with a healthy amount left, you have rake up with 5 combo points and 30 energy and you have rip left with 5 seconds remaining with no mangle debuff. Should you wait the 5 seconds to re-apply rip or 'waste' a combo point on mangle?

#53 Fuzzywuz

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 08:34 PM

Thank you for that Fuz.

At this time, there is only one Feral DPS in our raid, so no such mangle bot exists -- so I pick up that link. I could not tell you 100% if he did or did not have a mangle bot in his raids. That may be the separation right there. I am still "hearing" of cats doing top 3 DPS even without Mangle bots while gemming agility on such fights as Ignis and Hodir. There is still movement to be considered so that extra burst may be what puts them over the top.

I mean, is this the way to rule it :: ArP > Agi in stationary fights such as XT and Agi > ArP in movement fights? Because with that mode of thinking, Agi would be a better base because Ulduar is very movement based (at least for the most part). So, burst is detrimental to a certain end.

Just some thoughts that I had rolling around :)



Well, its not movement that would cause Agi>ArP (and remember, this is debatable because pretty much every model favors gemming ArP until the trinket soft cap) its a question of what abilities you are able to use as a result of fight mechanics and your guilds particular strategy/raid comp. Iron council is a good example--I basically stand and shred on that fight, but occasionally I have to run out of melee range because of a death rune or lightning nova. Does that mean I should be gemming Agi>ArP? Not necessarily.

Keep in mind that you should always take DPS meters with a grain of salt. There is more to doing good DPS than having good gear and good execution of your rotation--your ability to work with what you're given to maximize your DPS is a much better measure of skill than a comparison with another druid in a different raid environment.

Edit:

@5h0r7y: As a general rule of thumb, you should use mangle and 'waste' the combo point. The +30% to rip damage for 5 ticks will be a larger marginal gain of DPS than waiting so that you don't waste a combo point.

#54 Gurrshael

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 10:39 AM

With 5s left on Rip it's only 3 ticks (Rip ticks every 2s).

I'd probably wait and reapply Rip only if there were less than 2s (= one tick) left on Rip. I do not have any math to back it up as I do not know the dps value of 1 CP.

#55 Batlecruiser

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 02:44 PM

First of all, very good guide. But I have 2 questions. First one belongs to your berserk-macro:

5. I suggest you build a makro:
#showtooltip
/cast Tiger's Fury
/cast Berserk
2 weeks ago, I mentioned, that using this macro "erases" tiger's fury buff. So what's better: wasting this buff and gain 60 energy to use berserk or use tiger's fury seperatly (use to full buff) and waiting for energy to use berserk?

Which trinkets should I wear?
The is in most gear setups one of the best trinkets. This will not be a useless investment, as it is an extremely good tanking trinket aswell.
In the second slot you should wear one of the two ArP trinkets mentioned above ( or )

I always asked myself if i should buy this trinket, I really often read that it's one of BiS, but how do I get enough hit, if I wear and ? Should I wear and to become hitcapped?

#56 Murna

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 03:00 PM

Who says you have to be hitcapped?

#57 Kylesa

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 03:19 PM

What's a good addon that you ferals use to track durations of Mangle/SR, etc? I've been speccing feral just to solo instances to farm for mounts and stuff, but now I'm using it in pug raids for fun, and find the rotation mind-numbingly annoying to keep up with.

#58 Eak

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 04:43 PM

to become hitcapped?


The hit cap is a valid concern, but in a opposite way. The goal is to use as much BiS gear as possible while NOT become overcapped. At least with 10man Ulduar gear this isn't trivial.
Hit/Expertise is quite good, but Agi, Strength and Armor Penetration are better. Although you could argue that it's easier to press the right keys without misses (it is!), you will have enough hit with good gear.


@Kylesa
The feralbynight Addon does a good job, you will find it in this board. I personally use Quartz for tracking buffs/debufs, it's very clear and you can use the same tracker for all other classes and roles. Unfortunately it lacks of beeing able to show your SR buff in the same way.

#59 Melador

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 06:04 PM

What's a good addon that you ferals use to track durations of Mangle/SR, etc? I've been speccing feral just to solo instances to farm for mounts and stuff, but now I'm using it in pug raids for fun, and find the rotation mind-numbingly annoying to keep up with.

I just set up my feral UI this weekend, and I used Satrina buff frames with custom frames specifically for each of the things I want to keep up (SR, Mangle, Rake, Rip) with just-seconds countdowns below each. That way each has a specific, constant place in my UI, with energy and combo points in the same area on my screen.

#60 m9spd

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 06:11 PM

BadKitty and FeralByNight are great.




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