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Twin Emps


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#21 Bocheezu

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 04:11 PM

Are we the only ones who have warlocks pick up teleport aggro directly instead of having them grab aggro with searing pain? When we killed Emps last night, zero shadow bolts hit warriors for the entirety of the fight. Done right, neither Emp ever really moves at all.

This is certainly the most elegant solution, and most mana effiecient for healers, but it's not really necessary. We started out doing this and we just kept getting people arcane bursted and it was too frustrating. So we let the warrior keep aggro on the switch to Vek'lor and let the warlock pull it off him and eat a few shadowbolts. It's less mana efficient, but last week we killed these guys with 13 healers total (5 priest, 5 pally, and 3 resto druid), so it's not like it kills your healing, and it's a lot more forgiving on the transition.

#22 jholland

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 04:12 PM

Are we the only ones who have warlocks pick up teleport aggro directly instead of having them grab aggro with searing pain? When we killed Emps last night, zero shadow bolts hit warriors for the entirety of the fight. Done right, neither Emp ever really moves at all.

We do it the same way, let the warlock get initial agro, no reason not to :P

#23 chalon

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 04:36 PM

Are we the only ones who have warlocks pick up teleport aggro directly instead of having them grab aggro with searing pain?


Yep we do it this way as well.

we've also had it happen the odd time where Vek'Lor arcane bursts immediately upon teleport (at the start of his 2 second stun), which usually results in a wipe when it happens. I'm still not sure what's up with that, but it happens rarely enough that it doesn't really matter.


Ditto on that, too.

#24 Lailla

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 04:52 PM

When we were learning the fight, we tried warlock tanks with mild success. Midway through a night of attempts, we switched to just warriors and it has worked great for us. Warlock makes the first pull, but after that, he's out of the picture.

I don't have many more specifics to offer from a healer's perspective, but our tanks seem to hold aggro just find using battle shout. (Never use demo shout though, or you'll get social aggro from the little yellow bugs!)

#25 diospadre

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 05:07 PM

Gurg's idea of having the warlock stand right in the middle of Vek'nilash before the teleport seems like something we should try, especially since EJ has obviously had success doing it :P

This is between me and you but we're still stuck on emps and all that stuff about c'thun was just theorycraft :(

#26 bartolimu

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 05:21 PM

We do it the same way as EJ, with a warlock picking up proximity aggro. For the most part it works flawlessly, though it opens up the warlocks for getting Uppercuts, and we've also had it happen the odd time where Vek'Lor arcane bursts immediately upon teleport (at the start of his 2 second stun), which usually results in a wipe when it happens. I'm still not sure what's up with that, but it happens rarely enough that it doesn't really matter.

Last time I tanked the emps fight, I died by catching two uppercuts in 5 seconds - one of them a crit. That's the sort of random thing that can't really be helped. Under normal circumstances I'm at full (>7500) health when I run in and it's pretty hard to die.

As far as instant arcane bursts right after teleport, yeah, that sucks. It has been known to happen to us, though I haven't seen it since we got the new hardware. Might be a lag thing. Either way, there are consumables you can use to increase a warlock's survivability should this unlikely event occur in the future.

#27 jholland

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 05:39 PM

Arcane explosions right after the teleports are actually triggered by something, by the way :P

#28 chalon

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 06:01 PM

Arcane explosions right after the teleports are actually triggered by something, by the way :P

OMG IS IT BECAUSE I MELEED THE MAGIC EMP AND USED POISONS ON THE MELEE ONE?!!?

#29 Malorum

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 06:31 PM

Arcane explosions right after the teleports are actually triggered by something, by the way :P

Yeah we figured that out after our 2nd night of attempts. Take that out of the equation and all you have to worry about is shadowbolts.

Anyway. Badges suck, bring back 40 mans.


#30 Sunder

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 07:10 PM

When we first got to Twin Emps, we tried to have our warlocks tank Vek'lor. We weren't even lasting past 3 teleports before the warrior, warlock, or both were dead. So the second night we went to a straight warrior tanking strat. Killed them that night. Yes it is insanely mana intensive for healers and casters have to watch their crits on Vek'lor for dps, but I find it is a much more controlable fight. Even when we were first wiping, we were lasting at least 12 minutes every attempt. When we finally killed them, it was a 13 minute fight.

#31 Mythic

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 07:24 PM

We use the two tanks method, and I've never really seen a problem with it(Alliance). While the one tank does take more damage from the magic emp, it really isn't unbearably more(especially with 5-7 healers on him as we normally do), and none of our healers ever really have mana problems. I would think anyone at this level of content would have similar, or at least close to, the gear I have, and they should be in the same boat. I go into the fight with mageblood/nightfin/Brilliant mana oil and I can spam Heal rank 2-3 pretty much the entire fight, and shield them after they get one of the two debuffs, and not have a problem. Most of my potion cooldowns are used chugging fire pots.

As far as DPS on the magic Emporer, we usually have the casters launch one bolt off with a few seconds left before the teleport, and if they crit, lay off the next time. Only one mage ever pulls aggro, and it's the same one every time. Even then, he usually get's shadowbolts once or twice and dies, and they teleport so it isn't a huge issue. We usually get the kill in about 12 minutes.

#32 Montantu

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 09:12 PM

Are we the only ones who have warlocks pick up teleport aggro directly instead of having them grab aggro with searing pain? When we killed Emps last night, zero shadow bolts hit warriors for the entirety of the fight. Done right, neither Emp ever really moves at all.

This is the way we do it as well (Horde, for those on other servers). We use two warriors and a warlock on each emp. One warrior is tanking and the other is just standing there to eat uppercuts. I haven't been able to notice a pattern with who gets uppercutted (closest, farthest in melee range, etc) so I've chalked it up to random -- maybe someone here knows better. The one nice thing about doing it this way is there's one more person standing there to eat the uppercut while the warlock is getting into position to grab aggro after the teleport.

#33 Hamlet

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 07:01 AM

Tried these guys for the first time. Went in planning to use Warlocks for Vek'lor--just seems more elegant, and more in line with the intentions of the encounter.

Spent the whole night working on the transitions. Things that came up:

The initial plan was to have Warlocks getting prox aggro at the teleports. I think any Arcane Blasts we saw can be ironed out by execution. Uppercuts were a problem, though.

We also played with having the Warlocks pull off of the Warrior post-port (which I like less). Big problem here seemed to be massive incoming shadowbolts for a few seconds, which are a real bother, and that we had Vek'lor run around at least once for no good reason (though someone in the raid hypothesized that it was range-related).

So, back to the first plan (Warlock gets prox aggro). Presumably, all your melee DPS is getting out of there well before the port, so there's a long period of time where only the Warrior and Warlock are in melee, hence there's a good chance that the Warlock eats an uppercut. Is this just something you have to live with if you do it this way? If so, does planting the Warlock against the wall at least guarantee that he won't get knocked out of melee range, while leaving him enough time to get away before Arcane Blast?

People mentioned above having extra tanks stay in melee range. Just to be clear, all that this does is reduce the chance of an Uppercut on the Warlock from 1/2 to 1/3? It doesn't seem to really change the fact that you have to deal with the possibility.

Also: is the there a period of time while a bug is Mutating that it is still "yellow" and will aggro other bugs if attacked? We had some yellow bug swarms for reasons that nobody could figure out.

#34 Elerion

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 12:53 PM

Common reasons for bug swarms:
- Thunderfury
- Blade Fury
- Whirlwind
- Cleave
- Psychic Scream

We use the 2 warrior method btw. The only real issue with it is that dps casters are relegated to dpsing mutated bugs, which can leave the raid short of dps if you're low on melee. We can probably allow them to do some small amount of damage on Vek'Lor, but if we allow our casters to do some damage, you can bet your ass one of the mages will go "TRINKET POM PYRO LOL" right at a transition.

#35 Deril

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 01:33 PM

Common reasons for bug swarms:
- Thunderfury
- Blade Fury
- Whirlwind
- Cleave
- Psychic Scream

Demo Shout :(

#36 Praetorian

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 01:41 PM

Demo shout is incredibly helpful if well-timed by the MTs.

Yeah, just have everyone remove all AoE effects from their bars. Hunters compulsively multishotting is another big culprit.

And on tank transitions, we don't have anyone else stay at melee with regard to uppercuts. If the tank gets uppercutted, no big deal. But yeah, sometimes an uppercut will happen to the warlock a split second before the teleport. It's no big deal. When that happens Vek'lor will start aggro'd onto the warrior, but a few Searing Pains will change that. Just make sure the warlock is at max range while doing so and that he turns and runs away a bit as soon as Vek'lor aggros him, and it should be fine.

#37 Mesquite

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 01:57 PM

This fight sounds crazy fun.

#38 delljit

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 02:24 PM

This fight sounds crazy fun.

Yes, im looking forward to tanking it for my guild provided we dont give up on the warlock tanking strategy because of a few wipes on our first few attempts.

#39 Brilliance

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 03:03 PM

The best is when Vek'lor thinks he should take a swing or two at the warlock.



#40 Requitas

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 03:32 PM

Common reasons for bug swarms:
- Thunderfury
- Blade Fury
- Whirlwind
- Cleave
- Psychic Scream

We use the 2 warrior method btw. The only real issue with it is that dps casters are relegated to dpsing mutated bugs, which can leave the raid short of dps if you're low on melee. We can probably allow them to do some small amount of damage on Vek'Lor, but if we allow our casters to do some damage, you can bet your ass one of the mages will go "TRINKET POM PYRO LOL" right at a transition.

MT for Arawethion/Hamlet's guild here.

Quite honestly, after a few near-Tourette's moments on vent after people thought it would be a good idea to go ahead and leave those AoE skills on their bars, we had the problem pretty much sealed up. On one of the last pulls, our most veteran Hunter pulled a bug swarm. After questioning his right to exist, he was really quite adamant that there is a moment between the mutation and the bug going red that can aggro friends if the bug groups are actually too quick. It seems like a solid theory.

Also Gurg, are you saying that the possibility of a Warrior eating a couple Shadowbolts due to an unfortunate Uppercut on the Warlock is inevitable and should just be accounted for by the healers for that side?




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