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DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand


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#21 Kyruski

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 08:45 PM

@Kyruski:

In your calculations, why are you multiplying the crit damage portion of each attack by a factor of 2?

Ex: ((860*.71)+(2081*.29))*2 = 2428.18

I would assume that the average damage would simply be the weighted average of the crits/non-crits.


That is actually multiplying the sum of the Avg Non-Crit/Percentage + Avg Crit/Percentage by 2. If you notice, the Crit+Non-Crit is inside the Parentheses. This is because Recount Counts each time you use BS or OB as 2 because of the Swings, 1 for MH and 1 for OH. So without multiplying, it becomes the Average damage of (MH+OH)/2, so multiplying by 2 bings it back closer to the Actual of the two combined hits.

#22 AtheistGod

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 09:03 PM

Recount counts main hand and off hand separately. Those max numbers are main hand hits only.

I forgot to take a screenshot of the first occurrence but I was able to get another such situation.
Remember I'm using in mainhand and in offhand so mainhand hits for about 600-800 offhands hit for about 200.

Crit of offhand procs Reflections of Torment
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#23 AtheistGod

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 09:11 PM

I was asked to figure out if Death Strike heals for 10% or more because of the offhand attack. In testing this I came across the issue that Death Strike still only hits with the mainhand. For some reason ToT does not work on Death Strike on the PTR.

#24 Guest_Aezoc_*

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 09:16 PM

@Kyruski: The blood strike specific portion of your testing will need to be redone next PTR patch, as the bonus damage from diseases is being cut in half (50%->25%). Also, I believe the better test is whether 2x BS > 2x IT + FS, as that's currently the ideal way to spend those death runes as frost. I guess with the FS nerfs the value of 2x IT + FS might need to be re-evaluated compared to Ob, however. And I can confirm that CG (all proc-based rune enchants, actually) do proc from strikes. The easiest way to test this is to gradually face away from the dummy until you can no longer hit it with auto attacks. If you do it incrementally enough, you should still be able to use special attacks. Spam them for a few seconds until you get a proc, and voila.

Blood strike - Is it now doing enough damage to justify using Death runes for BS instead of other attacks?

Unfortunately I don't think this question has a simple yes/no answer. It's actually a bit of a chicken and egg problem, in that we only care about the answer for the highest DPS DW build, but we're not sure yet which that is. I'll take a stab at this for deep frost, but 23/48 and deep unholy would need a separate set of calculations.

Assumptions
  • BS damage is increased by 25% per disease, using the latest patch notes.
  • Not factoring in any sigils, since SotVH likely won't be BiS next patch
  • Using glyphs of IT and FS
  • For ease of calculation, assume paired weapons of the same speed and DPS. This lets us calculate total BS/FS damage by multiplying the MH damage by 1.575
  • Assume raid buffs and spell hit cap. BS/FS are mostly affected by the same buffs - BS will gain 4% damage relative to FS (Blood Frenzy), and IT will gain 13% damage.
  • I'm ignoring crit chance for now, because it's pretty complicated, especially with KM procs. But see below on why I don't think that affects the outcome.
  • Given the glyph choices, the comparison is really 2x BS vs. 2x IT + 93.75% of a FS

Weapon damage = wpn_base + AP / 14 * 2.4

BS damage = (0.4 * wpn + 305.6) * 1.5 * 1.1 * 1.575 * 1.04
FS damage = (0.55 * wpn + 138) * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.2 * 1.575 * .9375
IT damage = (236 + AP * .1) * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.2 * 1.13

Feel free to plug in various AP and weapon damage numbers. There is no one answer, even given the assumptions listed, because the BS option scales worse with AP but better with weapon damage. However, what I consider to be all sane values ITx2 wins handily. Now, I didn't consider crit. Ignoring Dark Conviction, IT has 15% crit from talents, FS has 3%, and BS has 12%. If we generously assume that 1% crit = 1% increased damage (it's less, but bear with me) and we ignore the crit that IT and FS get, then with 5500 AP and two 2.6s ilvl 239 weapons, 2x BS is better than 2x IT + FS. Except we haven't considered armor. BS is affected by it, 2x IT + FS isn't. Again, this is somewhat subjective because everyone will have a different idea of what a reasonable amount of ArP is, but if we assume the boss has even 10% damage reduction from armor, then 2x IT + FS pulls ahead again by a decent margin.

Conclusions
I think that calculating the exact average damage of each option will require a full-fledged spreadsheet, or ideally, an updated simulator. However, I feel that the scenario above is proof that for the average case, ITx2 is a better use of death runes for a 51 frost spec that is glyphed for IT and FS, since it outperforms 2x BS in a situation that is very favorable for 2x BS (only 10% reduction from armor, and ignoring IT/FS damage increases from crit). This raises several new questions though, like whether the current deep frost glyphs will still be the best choices in 3.2, and how deep frost stacks up to 23/48 overall. So while I don't have time to calculate the answer to this question for the various other specs, hopefully this will prove useful in getting the ball rolling.

#25 Melchior

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 09:17 PM

Everything is explained in the second post. Why didn't you read it? I did and it was well worth it.
The offhand strikes, so slow it better. I'd say it's speed>stats>dps, but mostly stats and dps go hand in hand. The ilvl239 weapons e.g. aren't good. My sheet was correct about the strikes, so feel free to test it out yourself.


Edit - I was screwing my own results because I had SoA equipped, nevermind.
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#26 concept84

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 09:22 PM

@ Concept84:

The Frost strike VS Deathcoil issue needs to be tested, instead of posting what we "think" will be better lets do some actual testing. Frost strike has had a reduction in power, and a build that uses deathcoil would be able to take advantage of the new UB and would place a lower value on expertise as a result of using UB. There is no way to argue at this point for one or the other, but we sure can test things.


While I agree this needs to be tested again, and admittedly would rather use Death Coil, we have to remember back in the old DW days Frost Strike beat out Death Coil by a very large margin, and I just don't feel a 30% DoT can make up for that, especially with the increased runic power generation from OB with CoTG and Dirge, plus the FS Glyph lowering its cost.

Also remember that Frost Strike hit harder than Death Coil before when Death Coil was fully buffed by Impurity at 25% and Frost Strike was hitting based solely off the Main Hand Weapon's damage.

So my post was not really a "guess" at all, merely an observation from the recent pass, and unless I'm missing something very large here, I believe this to be the case come 3.2.

#27 Kyruski

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 09:27 PM

@Kyruski: The blood strike specific portion of your testing will need to be redone next PTR patch, as the bonus damage from diseases is being cut in half (50%->25%).


I thought that was currently implemented, the 25% per disease part. Also if I was having trouble keeping a rotation that's OB>OB>BS>BS>Dump, IT will still be somewhat hard, though haste will help. Like I said, it's up to you for interpretation.

#28 AtheistGod

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 09:31 PM

When I equip a 1.1 DPS MH and a Razorscale Talon OH, the OH will not strike harder than the MH, which it should if it were actually looking at the OH weapon shouldn't it? If I switch the two, the OH still strikes for roughly the value you mentioned (57.5% of the MH damage). I don't see where the OH weapon is actually used.


My testing goes against that. My two hits when using a a 1.1 DPS mainhand with Broken Promise offhand are less than 25% different.

#29 Guest_Aezoc_*

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 09:33 PM

I thought that was currently implemented, the 25% per disease part.

The tooltip still reads 50% per disease. Messing around with the dummy also seems to indicate that it's doing basically double damage with diseases up.

#30 Melchior

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 09:35 PM

My testing goes against that. My two hits when using a a 1.1 DPS mainhand with Broken Promise offhand are less than 25% different.


Edit - testing more.
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#31 Fargom

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 09:52 PM

While I agree this needs to be tested again, and admittedly would rather use Death Coil, we have to remember back in the old DW days Frost Strike beat out Death Coil by a very large margin, and I just don't feel a 30% DoT can make up for that, especially with the increased runic power generation from OB with CoTG and Dirge, plus the FS Glyph lowering its cost.

Also remember that Frost Strike hit harder than Death Coil before when Death Coil was fully buffed by Impurity at 25% and Frost Strike was hitting based solely off the Main Hand Weapon's damage.



The main factors I was taking into account are that the glyph of dark death didn't exist back then, and the 30% dot is a huge new mechanic. Either way, we both agree this needs testing, I'll put in some time on it when I get home from work. My guess is that FS will turn out to be superior for any build deep enough to grab it, but in an effort to play by my own rules in this thread I want to test it.

#32 Guest_Aatis_*

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 10:05 PM

I'm on the PTR right now testing the effects of razorice/lichbane on mainhand/offhand weapons but the results are extremely peculiar, to the point that it doesn't appear to matter which weapon you apply razorice to at all.

I'm running razorice on and Lichbane on .

With Serilas in my mainhand, both lichbane and Razorice are showing proc damage from 7-14, averaging 10, during this time I had popped my wrathstone and had greatness procced, and the max proc damage never went outside this area, while my maximum white HIT on the dummy was 2008 (2% = 40 damage), crit of 3646 (2% = 73 damage)

When I switch Void Sabre to my mainhand, both runeforges are dealing 4-8 damage, averaging 6 per swing.

Equipped a in my mainhand, razorice on Void Sabre in my offhand and the damage from razorice was 1 per swing.

The 2% damage done by both of these runeforges is based entirely off the base weapon damage of your mainhand weapon, regardless of which weapon is enchanted, attack power is currently completely ignored for the calculation.

#33 Kyruski

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 10:31 PM

EDIT: Math all messed up for now, disregard until later.

#34 Darkside

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 10:34 PM

Well if you want to compare BS vs. IT with Death runes, An IT with the Glyph and CotG produces 30RP. That's .9375 FS's per IT. With calculations from before:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't IT produce Base+Glyph+CotG = 10+10+5 = 25 RP?

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#35 AtheistGod

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 10:35 PM

Well if you want to compare BS vs. IT with Death runes, An IT with the Glyph and CotG produces 30RP. That's .9375 FS's per IT. With calculations from before:


3431.65*.9375 = 3217.171875

So FS alone already beats the "un-nerfed" BS. FS + IT should easily beat BS unless IT somehow heals the mob instead. The problem is Fitting this all into a rotation.


You are saying .9375 of 2 FS > 2 BS. not that .9375 of 1 FS > 2 BS.

Darkside: The comparison is 2 IT vs 2 BS. It's 50 RP vs 20 RP so that's where the 30/32 of a FS comes from.

#36 Kyruski

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 10:59 PM

Alright, let's try this again, I think i fixed all the problems.

Well if you want to compare BS vs. IT with Death runes, An IT with the Glyph and CotG produces 25RP. 2 BS Produces 20RP while 2 IT Produces 50RP. So 2 IT produces 30RP more than 2 BS. That's .78125 FS's per 2 IT. With calculations from before:

BS: ((860*.71)+(2081*.29))*2 = 2428.18

FS: ((939*.425)+(2290*.575))*2 = 3431.65.


3431.65*.9375 = 3217.171875 FS damage for the combined RP Gen from 2 ITs
(2428.18*2)-3217.171875 = 1639.188125

So for IT to be a better Dump than BS, you have to have 2 IT > 1639.188125. That comes out to 819.5940625 each IT must do. I did 100 ITs on the Test dummy again, same exact conditions. Here are the Results:

IT Crit: Avg = 2367, % = 22%
IT Non-Crit: Avg = 1182, % = 78%
IT Expected Avg Damage = (1182*.78)+(2367*.22) = 1442.7

So IT+FS should be more than BS. The problem is you also have to find the time to fit the GCDs in while in BP. Hopefully my math is all correct this time.

#37 Sakuratei

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 11:14 PM

..Also, I believe the better test is whether 2x BS > 2x IT + FS, as that's currently the ideal way to spend those death runes as frost. I guess with the FS nerfs the value of 2x IT + FS might need to be re-evaluated compared to Ob, however..


Not to mention that all comparisons in the past were based on striking only with the mainhand. For 2H frost currently, those Death runes are used for an extra Obliterate, will Threat of Thassarian make Obliterate a viable use for them even for DW?

#38 Melchior

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 11:18 PM

Not to mention that all comparisons in the past were based on striking only with the mainhand. For 2H frost currently, those Death runes are used for an extra Obliterate, will Threat of Thassarian make Obliterate a viable use for them even for DW?

Also, while I wait for more testing on the concern that Melchior had about Offhand weapon not being used at all, could it be that Threat of Thassarian takes the Main strike's formula, recalculates all the random numbers to create an identical strike and then halves it because it is with the offhand (or multiplies it with .575, since we have NoCS).

The tooltip says it uses the offhand for an additional strike, but it also says the strike will hit for roughly half the damage of the main strike. The second statement would only be true as long as two weapons with equal weapon damage range were equipped. Then again, it's not the first time Blizzard screws up tooltips.


Nah it's definitely hitting with the OH, I screwed up my own testing that time.
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#39 Darkside

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    I find your lack of faith disturbing.

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 11:21 PM

So IT+FS should be more than BS. The problem is you also have to find the time to fit the GCDs in while in BP. Hopefully my math is all correct this time.


Like 2h frost, this is a strong indicator that it may be a better idea to be in Unholy Presence than Blood Presence. As I've demonstrated in the Frost thread (http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1247070) UP beats out BP assuming that you have less than 23% downtime in your cycles. Assuming that DW will use the same rotations as 2h Frost does (without 6xIT) this should hardly be an issue, especially if any of the fights involve any measurable amount of downtime/movement.

Finally, as an added bonus, UP provides greater frequency of KM procs.

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#40 PristineChaos

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 11:28 PM

So IT+FS should be more than BS. The problem is you also have to find the time to fit the GCDs in while in BP.


We could always OB on F/U runes while Blood Plague is up and 2xIT on the Death Runes and let Blood Plague fall off and dump FS while Frost Fever is up since FS does not really gain anything from Blood Plague. Once RP is depleted we could IT>PS> and resume Obliterating.

Question is, assuming 15% extra damage and crits on Blood Plague would it be a loss of dps to let it fall off during the FS dump.




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