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DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand


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#41 Darkside

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 11:30 PM

Question is, assuming 15% extra damage and crits on Blood Plague would it be a loss of dps to let it fall off during the FS dump.


Almost certainly. Unless it's going to put you over the RP cap, there is no reason whatsoever to delay your reapplication of diseases. You can always dump the RP at a later time.

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#42 Fargom

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 11:35 PM

Finally, as an added bonus, UP provides greater frequency of KM procs.


Good point, also UP provides the movement speed buff, which we would otherwise have to get via boots.

Considering the evidence in the 2h frost thread, I'm going to suggest that we attempt to use UP if possible, the extra KM procs and movement speed are enough to make UP the presence of choice. At this point, it would have to be a fairly strong argument for BP to be considered.

#43 concept84

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 12:21 AM

Good point, also UP provides the movement speed buff, which we would otherwise have to get via boots.

Considering the evidence in the 2h frost thread, I'm going to suggest that we attempt to use UP if possible, the extra KM procs and movement speed are enough to make UP the presence of choice. At this point, it would have to be a fairly strong argument for BP to be considered.


I think UP vs BP will largely depend on our rotations; whether we can fill the extra GCDs or not. With a standard OB spam rotation I find it really hard to believe UP will outweigh BP, however if it once again comes down to maximizing runic power for Frost Strikes then surely UP will take the cake.

#44 Guest_Aezoc_*

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 12:46 AM

I think UP vs BP will largely depend on our rotations; whether we can fill the extra GCDs or not. With a standard OB spam rotation I find it really hard to believe UP will outweigh BP, however if it once again comes down to maximizing runic power for Frost Strikes then surely UP will take the cake.

I guess I'm confused why this is an open question - diseases will tick for 15% more now, and BS disease scaling is improved. Because of this, the single disease BP rotation is clearly worse than double diseases (they were roughly equal prior to this), and double disease frost rotations have always been in UP. Nothing in 3.2 looks to change frost RP generation, so I don't see any reason to even consider double disease BP being feasible.

#45 concept84

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 01:46 AM

I guess I'm confused why this is an open question - diseases will tick for 15% more now, and BS disease scaling is improved. Because of this, the single disease BP rotation is clearly worse than double diseases (they were roughly equal prior to this), and double disease frost rotations have always been in UP. Nothing in 3.2 looks to change frost RP generation, so I don't see any reason to even consider double disease BP being feasible.


I agree that single disease rotations will fail. That is not what I was referring to.

I guess my mind reverts back to the 0/32/39 days where a 14-GCD (possible due to haste and lots of spells) rotation was pulled off in BP, rather than focusing on current 2h frost spec rotations.

I just don't see how a rotation like:

PS-IT-OB-BS-BS-Dump
OB-OB-OB-Dump

would be better run in Unholy Presence for the DW builds we've being seeing pop up.

Lets assume glyphs are FS/OB/IT (just for max RP), and the Dirge was taken. This rotation generates 160 RP, which is exactly enough for 5 Frost Strikes. That's only 13 GCDs, which is easily possible in Blood Presence. The downside would be no room for Rime procs, but if in fact a build like 0/44/27 surfaces to the top HB won't even be part of it.

If our top DW spec only slightly deviates from the top current 2h Frost spec then I do agree with you, the same UP rotations should be best, however so much is changing in 3.2 across the board, I think we need to think further out of the box and keep all options open.

#46 Travaggie

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 01:56 AM

I guess I'm confused why this is an open question - diseases will tick for 15% more now, and BS disease scaling is improved. Because of this, the single disease BP rotation is clearly worse than double diseases (they were roughly equal prior to this), and double disease frost rotations have always been in UP. Nothing in 3.2 looks to change frost RP generation, so I don't see any reason to even consider double disease BP being feasible.


Double disease 2H frost rotations were NEVER in UP, they've always been in blood presence. The double disease rotation is basically IT>PS>OB>BS>BS :: OB>OB>OB weaving frost strikes or some small variation thereof. Nothing is changing the RP generation if you do stick with the machine gun IT spam spec, however the fact that disease damage has been increased, will crit with 4pcT9, and the nerf to FS damage makes it so that building an entire rotation around generating more FS's pretty insignificant.

From my testing so far, I've done hours of 5 minute tests using the IT machine gun spec in UP, and the traditional BP rotation of IT>PS>OB>BS>BS :: OB>OB>OB weaving FS's where the latter came out ahead by 200-300 DPS every single time. My thoughts are that double diseases will be practically mandatory with the recent changes, but that will also mean BP will be king again.

#47 Guest_Aezoc_*

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 03:16 AM

You guys aren't using the proper rotation for frost. The correct double disease rotation (currently) is
PS->IT->Ob->BS->BS->Dump
Ob->IT->PS->IT->IT->Dump

You can't do that in BP. Now, FS has obviously taken a hit, so if someone wants to post math supporting the claim that Ob is a better dump now, which would shorten the rotation and allow it to be used in BP, then by all means. But speculation without math to back it up isn't helpful.

#48 Syrellia

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 03:28 AM

Rotation for short diseases (No epidemic):

IT > PS > BS > BS > OB > FS > FS (75 - 64 = 11 RP) (7)
OB > IT > IT > IT > PS > FS > FS > FS (106 - 96 = 10 RP) (8)
OB > OB > BS > BS > FS > FS (70 - 64 = 6 RP) (6)
IT > PS > OB > IT > IT > FS > FS > FS (111 - 96 = 15 RP) (8)
OB > BS > BS > IT > PS > FS > FS (90 - 64 = 26 RP) (7)
OB > OB > IT > IT > FS > FS > FS (116 - 96 = 20 RP) (7)
IT > PS > BS > BS > OB > FS > FS (95 - 64 = 31 RP) (7)
OB > IT > IT > IT > PS > FS > FS > FS (126 - 96 = 30 RP) (8)
...

The goal is to use PS whenever it nearly falls off for the best Blood Plague DoT
The priority (complicated) goes as follow:

Diseases (BP FF)
ITx2 for a pair of Death Runes
BS
OB for pair of Unholy + Frost runes
FS
ITx1 for single Frost Rune after Unholy Rune used to keep diseases up

(Note: This kind of complicated priority cannot be represented in Sims, but you should be able to input the rotation explained above)

Assuming that IT x 2 + FS > OB + Rime > IT + PS for any pair of runes (Death Runes, Frost & Unholy pair), this is the rotation for short diseases. It's quite messy but you get approximately 14 - 15 GCD per pair of 2, sometimes 16 if you have extra RP or Rime procs. This kind of rotation is impossible to be executed in Blood Presence where GCD is limited to 13 for 2 pairs (easier to reach 14 GCD per pair due to haste & spell-base, but if you use Frost Strikes haste will only affect Icy Touch, making it very hard unless you have a lot of haste. This amount of haste is yet to be determined).

If you use BS x 2 instead of IT x 2 for Death Runes, the rotation will lean toward 14 GCD per pair instead of 15 because of loss in RP generated. However, it's more difficult to use haste to reach 14 GCD in Blood Presence since there are much less spells used.

You can calculate the rotation of long-diseases as well as using Obliterate for Death Runes to determine if they are usable in Blood Presence. If you can execute the rotation in Blood Presence - it's definitely the way to go. If you cannot, then either change rotation into something like priority based (loss of runes cooldown time), lean toward using 2-runes abilities (Obliterate) or simply use Unholy Presence (If there are way many GCD to use per rune cooldown cycle - Gain in ability to use more GCD, loss in damages per GCD used AND diseases damages of 15%). More maths incoming for those kind of comparison once we get the basics down, and they can also be compared via established spreadsheets and simulations easily.

One downside of using ITx2 + FS on Death Runes: FF will be refreshed too often, so the FF damages may decrease. How the DoTs work is like they have to wait for a full second to tick off. If the DoT is refreshed half a second or 0.9s after the previous tick, then it's 0.9s loss of DoTs. It wasn't an issue at 3.1.3 because the Diseases damages are low, but surely it will hurt our dps a bit now as our diseases damages are buffed.

#49 Travaggie

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 05:03 AM

Rotation for short diseases (No epidemic):

IT > PS > BS > BS > OB > FS > FS (75 - 64 = 11 RP) (7)
OB > IT > IT > IT > PS > FS > FS > FS (106 - 96 = 10 RP) (8)
OB > OB > BS > BS > FS > FS (70 - 64 = 6 RP) (6)
IT > PS > OB > IT > IT > FS > FS > FS (111 - 96 = 15 RP) (8)
OB > BS > BS > IT > PS > FS > FS (90 - 64 = 26 RP) (7)
OB > OB > IT > IT > FS > FS > FS (116 - 96 = 20 RP) (7)
IT > PS > BS > BS > OB > FS > FS (95 - 64 = 31 RP) (7)
OB > IT > IT > IT > PS > FS > FS > FS (126 - 96 = 30 RP) (8)
...

The goal is to use PS whenever it nearly falls off for the best Blood Plague DoT
The priority (complicated) goes as follow:

Diseases (BP FF)
ITx2 for a pair of Death Runes
BS
OB for pair of Unholy + Frost runes
FS
ITx1 for single Frost Rune after Unholy Rune used to keep diseases up

(Note: This kind of complicated priority cannot be represented in Sims, but you should be able to input the rotation explained above)

Assuming that IT x 2 + FS > OB + Rime > IT + PS for any pair of runes (Death Runes, Frost & Unholy pair), this is the rotation for short diseases. It's quite messy but you get approximately 14 - 15 GCD per pair of 2, sometimes 16 if you have extra RP or Rime procs. This kind of rotation is impossible to be executed in Blood Presence where GCD is limited to 13 for 2 pairs (easier to reach 14 GCD per pair due to haste & spell-base, but if you use Frost Strikes haste will only affect Icy Touch, making it very hard unless you have a lot of haste. This amount of haste is yet to be determined).

If you use BS x 2 instead of IT x 2 for Death Runes, the rotation will lean toward 14 GCD per pair instead of 15 because of loss in RP generated. However, it's more difficult to use haste to reach 14 GCD in Blood Presence since there are much less spells used.

You can calculate the rotation of long-diseases as well as using Obliterate for Death Runes to determine if they are usable in Blood Presence. If you can execute the rotation in Blood Presence - it's definitely the way to go. If you cannot, then either change rotation into something like priority based (loss of runes cooldown time), lean toward using 2-runes abilities (Obliterate) or simply use Unholy Presence (If there are way many GCD to use per rune cooldown cycle - Gain in ability to use more GCD, loss in damages per GCD used AND diseases damages of 15%). More maths incoming for those kind of comparison once we get the basics down, and they can also be compared via established spreadsheets and simulations easily.

One downside of using ITx2 + FS on Death Runes: FF will be refreshed too often, so the FF damages may decrease. How the DoTs work is like they have to wait for a full second to tick off. If the DoT is refreshed half a second or 0.9s after the previous tick, then it's 0.9s loss of DoTs. It wasn't an issue at 3.1.3 because the Diseases damages are low, but surely it will hurt our dps a bit now as our diseases damages are buffed.


You're basically just overcomplicating the rotation IT>PS>OB>BS>BS :: OB>IT>PS>OB weaving FS's, which comes out to ~14 GCD's before rime procs if used.

#50 Travaggie

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 05:10 AM

You guys aren't using the proper rotation for frost. The correct double disease rotation (currently) is
PS->IT->Ob->BS->BS->Dump
Ob->IT->PS->IT->IT->Dump

You can't do that in BP. Now, FS has obviously taken a hit, so if someone wants to post math supporting the claim that Ob is a better dump now, which would shorten the rotation and allow it to be used in BP, then by all means. But speculation without math to back it up isn't helpful.


This rotation isn't an optimal dual disease rotation. It's just barely too long for BP and too short for UP at 15-16 GCD's. You can run PS>IT>OB>BS>BS :: OB>IT>PS>OB (weave FS dumps) in BP, essentially trading 2xIT and .625 FS's for 1 OB. This seems to favor using the 2xIT + .625 FS's, except that that will extend your rotation out too far, giving you like 4-5 spare GCD's where you just sit there in UP, and you gain 15% damage which is in itself better than 15% haste. I'm not purposefully not backing this up with math, its just been rehashed dozens of times in other forums.

#51 pintor

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 05:16 AM

You guys aren't using the proper rotation for frost. The correct double disease rotation (currently) is
PS->IT->Ob->BS->BS->Dump
Ob->IT->PS->IT->IT->Dump

You can't do that in BP. Now, FS has obviously taken a hit, so if someone wants to post math supporting the claim that Ob is a better dump now, which would shorten the rotation and allow it to be used in BP, then by all means. But speculation without math to back it up isn't helpful.


You are correct that is the current double disease rotation. However, the extra PS is not needed now since we will be running with epidemic (assuming we delve into the unholy tree, which is most likely). Which means in the second half of the rotation we get an extra U rune since we want to maximize disease up time (with the buff to diseases). The second rotation should be OB-->OB-->ITx2 or some variant. Which, as pointed out earlier is only 13 gcd's which is perfect for a BP rotation.

edit: So it is not that OB is a better dump, it is that we will be taking advantage of epidemic

#52 Travex

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:27 AM

Didn't get a lot of "alone time" with the target dummy but I'm gonna throw a rotation out there for others to test if they have the time. The rotation I'm taking about is for course the single disease Glyphed HB rotation which nobody seems to have mentioned yet. Given the current mechanics of ToT and SoVH's nerf, this may actually be better with Sigil of Awareness.

Spec: 0/53/18
Glyphs: HB, FS, OB
Rune Forges: RI/FC on Slow/Slow
Presence: Blood
Rotation: HB,OB,BS,BS --> OB,OB,OB

Then it becomes a priority rotation of HB if Frost Fever is about to wear off, otherwise OB,OB,BS,BS-->OB,OB,OB while weaving in FS. The idea here is that this rotation is better since HB > IT + PS in damage. OB spam procs Rime which gives you "free" HBs allowing you to make up for the loss of Blood Plague. Also obviously stronger in AOE situations. Feedback appreciated.

#53 Sylari

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:53 AM

Didn't get a lot of "alone time" with the target dummy but I'm gonna throw a rotation out there for others to test if they have the time. The rotation I'm taking about is for course the single disease Glyphed HB rotation which nobody seems to have mentioned yet. Given the current mechanics of ToT and SoVH's nerf, this may actually be better with Sigil of Awareness.

Spec: 0/53/18
Glyphs: HB, FS, OB
Rune Forges: RI/FC on Slow/Slow
Presence: Blood
Rotation: HB,OB,BS,BS --> OB,OB,OB

Then it becomes a priority rotation of HB if Frost Fever is about to wear off, otherwise OB,OB,BS,BS-->OB,OB,OB while weaving in FS. The idea here is that this rotation is better since HB > IT + PS in damage. OB spam procs Rime which gives you "free" HBs allowing you to make up for the loss of Blood Plague. Also obviously stronger in AOE situations. Feedback appreciated.


Still waiting for my DK to finish transferring over, so I haven't tested myself.. but have you compared this yourself to a double disease rotation? Seems that the buffs to Blood Plague and Blood Strike would make any sort of single disease rotation and the glyph of howling blast both nonviable.

#54 Maraxus

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 12:43 PM

So far 0/44/27 is floating around quite a bit, but when looking at the builds I'm confused as to why you wouldn't dump the 1 pt in Unholy Blight and just pick up Frost Strike instead. I've been thinking along similar lines and Frost Strike seems like a stronger option. I'm thinking a build like this would work better:

0/45/26


Because Unholy Blight looks more apealing to me that frost strike without Tundra Stalker.

But testing will tell us which build does better DPS.

And your build is missing Merciless Combat, which you will be missing a lot (you dont need to skip Merciless Combat with a 0/44/27 Death Coil build).

And on your build Impurity is almost a filler.

the 0/44/27 build is well rounded with only 2 "fillers" on Killing Machine.

Sorry for the lack of testing but I had no time.

#55 Valtiel

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 01:24 PM

On the issue of UP vs BP, it's important to notice that the increased damage on diseases and the 4p9 setbonus do favour BP, and FS nerfs sensibly reduce the edge of UP.

In live, IT spamm UP rotations aren't pulling ahead of BP rotation by a strong margin (having played both, I think it's safe to say that at least with the VH sigil the difference is sitting comfortably close to the grey zone of RNG, as I've had some of my best results with BP rotations). With FS nerfed by such amounts, and diseases taking a further edge, I really wouldn't take the domination of UP for granted.
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#56 Maraxus

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 02:07 PM

Ok, Im not that good with mats but I will try to make some theoretical calculation on dmg for both DW specs with permapet. One based on frost Strike and the other on Death Coil.

No sigil, with gliphs and no tier sets.
AP: 3000
No buffs.
Expertise cap
spell hit cap
Base crit: 30%
Weapon base dmg: 500
In BP
No Weapon Enchants.

Frost Strike (first part of the formula taken from Aezoc post on first page):
WPN = weapon_base + AP / 14 * 2.4
FS_base = .55 * WPN + 138
FS = FS_base * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.15 * 1.042
FS_crit = FS * 2.45
FS_crit_to_dmg = (FS_crit - FS) * 0,45 (no idea how to factor Killing Machine in this!!, I will gess a 15% add to crit)

FS main hand dmg = FS + FS_crit_to_dmg = 838 + 547 = 1385 * 1.2 (FS gliph contribution) = 1662 MAIN HAND AVERAGE DMG
FS off hand dmg: (FS * 0,575) + FS_crit_to_dmg = 482 + 314 = 796 * 1.2 = 956 OFF HAND AVERAGE DMG

TOTAL FROST STRIKE DMG = 2.617

Death Coil:
DC_base = 443 * (0,15 * AP)
DC = DC_base * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.2 (DC gliph) * 1.3 (UB)
DC_crit = DC * 2
DC_crit_to_dmg = (DC_Crit – DC) * 0,3

DC DMG = DC + DC_crit_to_dmg = 2029 + 608

TOTAL DC DMG = 2.637

Ok... Im sure missing a ton of things here, Doing some mistakes, and I also took far too many simplifications and not considering scaling, sigils and tier bonuses.
All that said.. both DW pet builds look really close to me. Only ingame testing will tell.

Please dont kill me for this mats and try to help out a bit ;-)

#57 Odii

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 02:22 PM

Still waiting for my DK to finish transferring over, so I haven't tested myself.. but have you compared this yourself to a double disease rotation? Seems that the buffs to Blood Plague and Blood Strike would make any sort of single disease rotation and the glyph of howling blast both nonviable.


Im not sure about the glyph being non-viable. The rotation of:

HB-OB-BS-BS
OB-OB-PS-BS

may be better damage then

PS-IT-OB-BS-BS
OB-OB-OB

with the new buffed blood strike and in Blood Presence. You could even get most of the benefit of 2 diseases without epidemic if you went:

HB-OB-BS-BS
HB-OB-PS-BS

You'd lose maybe 1-2 ticks of blood plague, but have 2 diseases for all your blood strikes and some number of obliterates.

#58 Syrellia

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 02:56 PM

@Maraxus: I'm having problem with your multipliers. I'll attempt to do it here (with glyphed FS, assumed builds with Tundra Stalker and Unholy Blight and no Impurity).


FS = FS_base * 1.1 (Black Ice) * 1.15 (BotN) * 1.15 (TS) * 1.15 (BP) * 1.2 (GC) * 1.13 (EP)
FS_crit = FS * 2.45 * 1.03 (Meta)

DC_base = 443 + (0.15 * AP) (I hope this is what you meant)
DC = DC_base * 1.1 (Black Ice) * 1.15 (Morbidity) * 1.15 (Glyph) * 1.15 (TS) * 1.15 (BP) * 1.13 (EP) * 1.3 (UB)
DC_crit = DC * 2 * 1.03 (Meta)

Also DC crit chance will always be lower than FS because FS gets contributed by Agility, DC crit won't. Also, try 7000 AP which is currently the amount you get for raid buffs.

If you want to try Impurity, take out the 1.15 (TS) multiplier for DC calculation, and add 1.2 multiplier inside the parenthesis of DC_base calculation: DC_base = 443 + (0.15 * AP * 1.2)

Also, where does that 1.042 in FS calculation come from? I can understand the other parts where you assume that BotN is 10% instead of 15% etc. but I can't figure it out where 1.042 comes from.

*Edit: To calculate how much KM increases crit %, do the following:
  • Calculate how much KM proc per minute (if instant strikes proc it too on MH then it's no longer 5ppm but more)
  • Calculate how much FS you use per minute (based on rotation)
  • Under ideal situation, assuming you can use KM proc in all frost strikes, calculate the ratio of FS with KM proc / total FS in % (=A%)
  • Keep in mind that those crits coming from FS with KM proc could've critted on its own. To calculate that portions, multiply the A% found earlier with the % FS natural crit chance. Then take away that amount from the A% then you find the amount of % crit you get only from KM.

For example: KM proc 6ppm, FS use per minute = 15, so A% = 6/15 = 0.4 or 40%. % nature crit = 30% so we have the crit % of KM contribution:
0.4 - 0.4 * 0.3 = 0.28 or 28%
The total crit % shall be 58% or close to that amount.

#59 Valtiel

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 03:47 PM

Also DC crit chance will always be lower than FS because FS gets contributed by Agility, DC crit won't. Also, try 7000 AP which is currently the amount you get for raid buffs.



Is it? I think my gear isn't too horrible, and in my Blood subspecc I have around 4570 attack power unbuffed, and with that, I generally get around 6600-6900 ap with all raibuffs. A BiS blood Dk will likely have 7k raidbuffed attack power. A good geared Blood DK will struggle to get that, and a Frost DK in any shape or form will likely however around 6500 instead. Frost has sensibly less AP than Blood or UH.
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#60 waffletimeyo

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 03:56 PM

Just to throw this out there, can a target that cannot be snared be flagged for ability modifiers that require snare effects (ie if a feral druid has a stack of infected wounds running)? If so, would it be worth it to use a glyph of blood strike in the place of the glyph for icy touch?

I will test this for myself later today when I am in a location where I have access to the game, and edit in my findings.




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