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Combat Mechanics, 3.0


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#41 dreadnor

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 04:25 AM

Mocking Blow and Challenging Shout force the mob to attack you temporarily, but have no effect on threat levels.

Mocking blow tooltip says it generates a moderate amount of threat. Not at home now so I can't double-check it but i'm 95% sure.

#42 Kenco

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 05:08 AM

Most of this is nitpicking, but...

Note that a "body-pulled" mob is in a precarious state: its current target has 0 threat, and even things which ordinarily generate no measurable threat (e.g. buffs) can pull aggro.

I think it's more likely that most buffs generate threat, but such a small amount that it doesn't affect normal combat, only the pull. I will claim without proof that bloodrage / berserker rage / battle shout generate threat, but shield block or a HoT (before it has ticked, just the cast) wouldn't pull a body-pulled mob - they truly generate 0 threat.

Actually, i did test this once. Get X to body pull, then Warrior to taunt and do nothing. At the end X will have aggro, but Warrior is clearly on the threat list. Now if Warrior casts shield block, he doesn't pull aggro.

As regards the threat stacking thing, my research has found that some bonuses do stack additively. These are, all together,
Berserker Stance / Battle Stance / Rogue Stance: -20%
Tranquil Air -20%, Blessing of Salvation - 30%
Defiance / Feral Instinct +15%
Arcanist 8/8 -15%

Most of the other bonuses are multiplicative, including nemesis 8/8, netherwind 3/8 (i.e. it acts before the other mods), arcane subtlety, random talent X.

e.g. a Rogue with BoS will generate 50% threat per damage, allowing him to do 60% more damage than without it!

e.g. Mage + BoS + AS + 8/8 Arcanist = (100 - 15% - 30%) * 60% = 33% threat. Well, not for long, thanks to 1.11.

1 point of HP/Mana healing generates 0.5 threat (0.375 for a Paladin).

Check this. I found 1 point of healing was 0.25 threat for Paladins.

1) They insantly raise your total threat to be equal to highest person on the mob's hate list at the time the spell is cast.

My experience is that if gives you the threat of the player who has aggro, not the highest. (Otherwise the MT could use it to increase his threat if people were above him).

#43 Hamlet

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 05:49 AM

Most of this is nitpicking, but...
I think it's more likely that most buffs generate threat, but such a small amount that it doesn't affect normal combat, only the pull. I will claim without proof that bloodrage / berserker rage / battle shout generate threat, but shield block or a HoT (before it has ticked, just the cast) wouldn't pull a body-pulled mob - they truly generate 0 threat.

Yeah, that makes more sense (also, I think Bloodrage and Battleshout have recorded threat levels). It seems pretty likely that Fire Ward or PW:Fort or all the other silly things people can do to pull aggro from Firemaw as he's flying towards the raid all have measurable threat levels.

It's good to know that there's no specific rule in place making mobs go after the most recent 0-threat ability caster in a situation like that. Maybe when I'm less busy I'll make a list of things which are safe to cast during a pull.

As regards the threat stacking thing, my research has found that some bonuses do stack additively. These are, all together,
Berserker Stance / Battle Stance / Rogue Stance: -20%
Tranquil Air -20%, Blessing of Salvation - 30%
Defiance / Feral Instinct +15%
Arcanist 8/8 -15%

Most of the other bonuses are multiplicative, including nemesis 8/8, netherwind 3/8 (i.e. it acts before the other mods), arcane subtlety, random talent X.

e.g. a Rogue with BoS will generate 50% threat per damage, allowing him to do 60% more damage than without it!

e.g. Mage + BoS + AS + 8/8 Arcanist = (100 - 15% - 30%) * 60% = 33% threat. Well, not for long, thanks to 1.11.

Actually, as of right now, we are getting flat aggro redux in 1.11. :dance:

Huh, well, that's odd. You're definitely sure about BoS stacking with, say, Arc.8/8 (the data was good enough to resolve 0.55 threat from 0.595)?

Check this. I found 1 point of healing was 0.25 threat for Paladins.

Okay. The 65% number was pulled off of this board, quite a while ago. Still, 50% threat? With BoS, that makes the 1.9 Pally threat "nerf" pretty meaningless.

My experience is that if gives you the threat of the player who has aggro, not the highest. (Otherwise the MT could use it to increase his threat if people were above him).

Right, that was just lazy wording.

It's still odd how it works on rooted mobs (Rag considers the high-aggro Hunter his current target for the purposes of Taunt). Does the 10% rule even come into play in a situation like that (where the mob isn't attacking the person who he'd like to be)? Might be good to know if they ever introduce another rooted mob who melees.

Could I get BoP at the beginning of a fight, blow all my timers, and then have the tank Taunt it "off" me (even though it's actually been on him the whole time) before BoP wears off, thus getting a heap of free threat? Seems exactly like the Rag situation.

#44 Hamlet

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 05:56 AM

Also, that means a Rogue with BoS will generate .5 threat, and a Mage with BoS + FrostChanneling/BurningSoul will generate .49 threat.

#45 Kenco

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 10:08 AM

Here's my data for Tranquil Air + Arcanist 8/8:

Shaman does 187 damage to mob, then stops (no TA down). Aggro will change after 187 * 1.1 = 205.7 threat.

Mage has TA up. Mages does 315 melee damage (no aggro), then a hit for 3 damage (gets aggro).
Therefore his modifier range is from (205.7 / 315) to (205.7 / 318) = 64.7% - 65.3%.

This is in range of 65%, and not 85% * 80% = 68%, which supports additive.

Interestingly, thottbot seems to know which ones are additive and which not. For the additive abilities there is the effect "Apply Aura: Mod Threat", whereas the multiplicative abilities are "Apply Aura: Add % Modifier (Threat)", i suppose these are kept in the MPQs somewhere.

#46 Maledict

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 10:13 AM

I think it's more likely that most buffs generate threat, but such a small amount that it doesn't affect normal combat, only the pull. I will claim without proof that bloodrage / berserker rage / battle shout generate threat, but shield block or a HoT (before it has ticked, just the cast) wouldn't pull a body-pulled mob - they truly generate 0 threat.

I can guarantee you that bloodrage and battle shout generate threat - it's how we pull the drakes & Chromaggus in BWL.

Hunter sends their pet in, dispels the pet. Mob then has aggro on the hunter. Main tank then bloodrages and battleshouts, and the hunter FD's.

Mob is then locked onto the main tank, and comes neatly into position.

Obviously, no-one else is buffing during this time period, as that has gotten people aggro before.

#47 Kalman

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 04:55 PM

Glancing blows also seem to be possible against lvl 60 twilight avengers/geocallers in Silithus. Anyone else notice this?

Hadn't noticed glancing, but those mobs have always given very strange results - crit rate significantly lower than expected, more misses than expected, etc. I believe that all Silithus mobs (bugs have the same issues) have a boosted Defense skill, which could lead to this.
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#48 Sirloin

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 01:44 PM

Glancing blows also seem to be possible against lvl 60 twilight avengers/geocallers in Silithus. Anyone else notice this?

Hadn't noticed glancing, but those mobs have always given very strange results - crit rate significantly lower than expected, more misses than expected, etc. I believe that all Silithus mobs (bugs have the same issues) have a boosted Defense skill, which could lead to this.

Is your weapon skill maxed? If you have 299 or less skill, you will see glancing blows against a L60 mob.
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#49 dreadnor

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 02:22 PM

Yep 300 weapon skill, only ever happened on silithus mobs though.

#50 Jaerel

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 03:45 PM

E. Mana regen per tick
Base Regen = 13 + Spi/4 (except for Druids, who get 13 + Spi/5)
A tick is 2 seconds.

Small modification.
Mages and Priests follow the 13+spi/4
Druids and Shaman (and I'd assume Paladins, but I've never had one of my own past lvl 6 for testing) both correspond to spi/5. 13 base I think is correct for these as well.
Locks seem to get enhanced health regen from spirit at the expense of reduced mana regen (didn't have a chance to test for numbers last night, but my reaction upon testing initially was a resounding "Ugh!")
Not sure on hunters.

#51 Hamlet

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 03:48 PM

Oh really? I'd always heard the (13 + Spi/4) figure, but had only confirmed it for Mages. Anyone know the details on those other classes?

#52 Maledict

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 03:49 PM

I know this is going to sound strange, and I apologise for the lack of hard maths, because I can't find the parses anywhere on my PC. But, on level 63 monsters, has anyone noticed that Curse of Elements seems to drop Frostbolts resists rate to about 4/5%, rather than the 17% it should be?

I dunno if I'm going mad, but the one MC run where we did parse it, once CoE hit a mob the resist rates fell by a lot. Never worked out if this was because frostbolt was binary, because CoE had some "other effect" on level resists, or if it were just one of those runs where you can throw your parse out of the window because the RNG has decided, like a fairy from on high, to bless you with crits and big hits...

Sorry for the lack of accuracy in my post, I just want to know if anyone else has experianced this at all.

#53 frmorrison

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 03:55 PM

According to http://www.wowwiki.c...ulas:Mana_Regen,

Druid, Hunter, Warlock Spirit/5 + 15
Mage Spirit/4 + 12.5
Paladin Spirit/4 + 8
Priest Spirit/4 + 12.5
Shaman Spirit/5 + 17

At least Shaman don't have the worst regen :).

#54 Hamlet

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 04:09 PM

Ok. This seems to jive with what I got very briefly by asking a few people to tell me their Spirit ticks.

#55 Deathwing

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 04:48 PM

Mage + BoS + AS + 8/8 Arcanist = (100 - 15% - 30%) * 60% = 33% threat. Well, not for long, thanks to 1.11.

What is the AS in that equation? Is the 60%? I'm confused there too.

Also, how come you aren't using the agro thresholds as part of agro comparisons? If I remember correctly, ranged has a 1.3x threshold, while melee has a 1.1x. Wouldn't that give ranged another advantage? 1.3^-1 in this case.

EDIT: Durrr...arcane subtelty. Why are you applying it as a generic threat modifier? Only works for arcane damage spells, no?

Also, I believe MD imp aura is one of those that stacks additively.

#56 Hamlet

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 10:17 PM

Further question I hadn't really thought about before--how does Fade work in the context of the 30% rule?

#57 Elerion

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 01:29 AM

It works weird. Even minutes into a pull I can pull aggro and fade it right back off to the tank. Happens on green wyrmguard pulls often. Logically I would have had to have 30% more threat than the tank to pull aggro, and would have to drop to 91% of his threat to send it back to him, assuming he stays in melee range. After 2 minutes, that difference should be a lot more than 850 threat or whatever Fade is.

#58 Shalas

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 04:11 AM

Also, fade never seems to dump aggro on anyone but the tank, even if someone else is ahead of the tank in aggro (as evidenced by them pulling aggro very quickly afterwards).

My random theory is that it does something strange like remove you from the aggro list, calculate aggro, then readd you at the lower level. It definatly seems to do less if it doesn't make you lose aggro immediatly.

#59 frmorrison

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 01:35 PM

Just noticed that on weapon skill, you didn't write that if you have 310 skill, glancing blows do full damage.

Also a note somewhere saying that if you have 440 defense you cannnot be critted may be useful.

#60 Praetorian

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 01:38 PM

Just noticed that on weapon skill, you didn't write that if you have 310 skill, glancing blows are removed.

Also a note somewhere saying that if you have 440 defense you cannnot be critted may be useful.

Isn't it more accurate to say that you'll still get glancing blows, but they'll do full damage?




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