Jump to content


Photo

Hunter damage cycles breakdown (Nerubian Slavemaker update)


  • Please log in to reply
288 replies to this topic

#21 Kalman

Kalman

    Super Macho Man

  • Members
  • 8,791 posts

Posted 16 May 2006 - 01:29 PM

Same with Quick Shots and Berserking.

Well, I assumed that if one did, all did. :)

I did, however, think it was a fixed 3 second cast for Aimed, and that this wasn't modifiable.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.

#22 Branar

Branar

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 381 posts

Posted 16 May 2006 - 04:48 PM

Nope. Aimed Shot's a bit odd...physical damage, no cast-bar, modified by "haste" abilities (though not by quiver speed I think?) but loses cast time when you get hit just like a spell.

#23 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,540 posts

Posted 16 May 2006 - 07:30 PM

Arawethion, if you wouldn't mind... do you think you could post 3 cycles for a ranged weapon faster than 10 seconds, and 3 cycles for a ranged weapon slower than 10 seconds, to show what you mean? I guess you should be able to use some of the examples I gave, since you have both greater than and lesser than 10 sec cycles there. Timestamps would be awesome =)

Cycle 1, cycle 2... Cycle where Aimed + Multi collide
On both of the above.

I would like to include this if possible, if I can find a good way of doing it, since I want it included in some stuff I've made...

Okay, but just realize that the corrections are only a few percent, and probably dwarfed by other errors in practice. For the sake of good theory, however:

For an 11s cycle (say, an 8/3=2.66s Auto)
0.0 Aimed Shot fires
0.0 Multi Shot fires
0.0 Auto Shot fires
2.7 Auto Shot fires
5.3 Auto Shot fires
8.0 Auto Shot fires
8.0 Start Aimed Shot
11.0 Aimed Shot fires
11.0 Auto Shot fires
11.0 Multi Shot fires (it cooled down during Aimed Shot.)
13.7 Auto Shot fires
16.3 Auto Shot fires
19.0 Auto Shot fires
19.0 Start Aimed Shot
22.0 Aimed Shot fires
22.0 Auto Shot fires
22.0 Multi Shot fires

et cetera. If you start by firing Multi right before an Aimed (rather than after, as I've shown above), you'll get off a Multi every 10s for a little while, but eventually, you'll run into your Aimed Shot. You won't be able to sustain a long-term average of more than 1 Multi every 11 seconds.

----------

A 9s cycle (2.0s Auto Shot)
0 Aimed Shot fires
0 Multi Shot fires
0 Auto Shot fires
2 Auto Shot fires
4 Auto Shot fires
6 Auto Shot fires
6 Start Aimed Shot
9 Aimed Shot fires
9 Auto Shot fires
10 Multi Shot fires
11 Auto Shot fires
13 Auto Shot fires
15 Auto Shot fires
15 Start Aimed Shot
18 Aimed Shot fires
18 Auto Shot fires
20 Auto Shot fires
20 Multi Shot fires
22 Auto Shot fires
24 Auto Shot fires
24 Start Aimed Shot
27 Aimed Shot fires
27 Auto Shot fires
29 Auto Shot fires
30 Multi Shot fires
31 Auto Shot fires
33 Auto Shot fires
33 Start Aimed Shot
36 Aimed Shot fires
36 Auto Shot fires
38 Auto Shot fires
40 Multi Shot fires
40 Auto Shot fires
42 Auto Shot fires
42 Start Aimed Shot
45 Aimed Shot fires
45 Auto Shot fires
47 Auto Shot fires
49 Auto Shot fires
50 Multi Shot fires
51 Auto Shot fires
51 Start Aimed Shot
54 Aimed Shot fires
54 Auto Shot fires
56 Auto Shot fires
58 Auto Shot fires
60 Multi Shot cools down, but you cannot fire it because your Aimed shot is ready.
60 Auto Shot fires
60 Start Aimed Shot
63 Aimed Shot fires
63 Auto Shot fires
63 Multi Shot fires, and we're back to where we stated.

You get off 6 Multishots in 63 seconds (7 cycles).

#24 Twid

Twid

    WildStar Shill

  • Members
  • 1,292 posts

Posted 16 May 2006 - 07:45 PM

One thing I'd be curious about is on fights where you are taking AoE damage, or any kind of spell interruption (a la Vaelastrasz), does switching to arcane shot increase dps?

I guess what I'm really asking is how long of a cast time does aimed shot have to be before arcane shot overtakes it?

Get you some purple drank and slow yo roll.


#25 Elendril

Elendril

    KINDOFABIGDEAL

  • Members
  • 5,560 posts

Posted 16 May 2006 - 09:03 PM

casting aimed shot on ouro when a bunch of bugs are chomping on you can be really annoying, because you're hoping someone fears them off, and then no one does, and you realize about 2 seconds into the cast that it's just not going to happen and you have to move and fire off an arcane shot :-P

#26 Lactose

Lactose

    Don Lactose

  • Members
  • 1,138 posts

Posted 17 May 2006 - 01:34 AM

Okay, but just realize that the corrections are only a few percent, and probably dwarfed by other errors in practice. For the sake of good theory, however:

For an 11s cycle (say, an 8/3=2.66s Auto)
<snip>
et cetera. If you start by firing Multi right before an Aimed (rather than after, as I've shown above), you'll get off a Multi every 10s for a little while, but eventually, you'll run into your Aimed Shot. You won't be able to sustain a long-term average of more than 1 Multi every 11 seconds.

First, just looking at the speed, etc, the 9 second cycle would actually be better :P
2.66 Auto Shot fires
5.32 Auto Shot fires
6.00 Start Aimed Shot
9.00 Aimed Shot fires
9.00 Auto Shot fires

Took Rhok'delar stats, changed weapon speed to 3.06 --> 2.66 after quiver
So, commenting on the 9 sec cycle first.
Let's try adding Multi-Shot here. Testing several options, so bear with me :P
Removing Auto Shots for less clutter.

0.00 Multi-Shot fires
6.00 Start Aimed Shot
9.00 Aimed Shot fires
10.00 Multi-Shot fires
...
51.00 Start Aimed Shot
54.00 Aimed Shot fires
60.00 Dilemma!

Looking at our cycle, a closer look at the last part would be:

54.00 Aimed Shot fires
54.00 Auto Shot fires
56.66 Auto Shot fires
59.32 Auto Shot fires
60.00 Multi-Shot ready
60.00 Aimed Shot ready
61.98 Auto Shot ready

3 options, delay Multi-Shot until after Aimed Shot. Delay Aimed Shot until after Multi-Shot (this turns it into the 10 sec cycle, so I won't write it down again). Delay Aimed Shot until after Multi-Shot + Auto Shot.

60.00 Start Aimed Shot
63.00 Aimed Shot fires
63.00 Auto Shot fires
63.00 Multi-Shot fires
65.66 Auto Shot fires
66.00 Start Aimed Shot
Multi-Shot delayed by 3 seconds. Same will happen every 7 cycles,
So instead of 0.9*Multi-Shot, it should be... 0.86*Multi-Shot? 6/7 * Multi-Shot would seem correct based on the above...

60.00 Multi-Shot fires
61.98 Auto Shot fires
61.98 Start Aimed Shot
64.98 Aimed Shot fires
64.98 Auto Shot fires
67.64 Auto Shot fires
70.00 Multi-Shot
70.30 Auto Shot fires
70.98 Start Aimed Shot
Aimed Shot delayed by 1.98 seconds. Conflicting cooldowns ever 2 cycles or so.

Seems 0.86*Multi-Shot is the best bet at the moment, based on this weapon speed at least. Which seems to agree with what you're saying, no? Well, so much for the 9 second cycle, let's check with a cycle exceeding 10 seconds.

Testing, the longest (optimal) cycle was with the speed of Rhok'delar, making the cycle 10.57 seconds. So, using that.
Actually, scratch that. It just dawned on me now. Basically, if the cycle is longer than 10 seconds, you only get 1 Multi-Shot per cycle due to Aimed Shot casting.
For a cycle shorter than 10 seconds... Hmm...
In the example above, the cycle is 1 second faster than Multi-Shot cooldown. Thus it takes 6 fully run cycles for Multi-Shot to catch up with Aimed Shot? If it takes x cycles, the coefficient for Multi-Shot would be x/(x+1) -- as it is now, 6/7 fits that at least :P
Would that mean that you could do something similar to... [messy math]
IF CycleLength > 10; 1*MultiShot_PerCycle
IF CycleLength < 10; ((6/(10-CycleLength)) / (1+6/(10-CycleLength)))*MultiShot_PerCycle
[/messy math]
Question is, if it's right, should I round it up or down? :P

Can't think of anything else right now... although I think I'll be able to reformat the comparisons a lot. I'll save it for after the formulae are commented on though ;)
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

#27 Lactose

Lactose

    Don Lactose

  • Members
  • 1,138 posts

Posted 17 May 2006 - 02:28 AM

Reformatted to help the eyes :P
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

#28 frmorrison

frmorrison

    Protector

  • Allied Members
  • 11,427 posts

Posted 17 May 2006 - 03:51 AM

Reformatted to help the eyes :P

Indeed, it was a good change.

#29 Xeres

Xeres

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 20 posts

Posted 17 May 2006 - 11:59 AM

I'm currently 0/21/30 I'm wondering what is more effective now or how it would affect your calcs as all the AP, Auto, Aimed and Multi has different values

#30 Lactose

Lactose

    Don Lactose

  • Members
  • 1,138 posts

Posted 17 May 2006 - 02:56 PM

This reworked shot calculation is done manually, so it takes some time using other variables. It's basically done so I can test the automatic version of it.
Once I'm sure it's working - and it seems to be up until now, with pretty varying weapon speeds - I'll only be a bit unsure of some hit%. After that, I'm all set. I've been working on a spreadsheet for comparing gear and builds in terms of damage (mana not considered due to lots of reasons). Various versions of it have been seen on the EU hunter forums, and I'll post a link to it here if there's any interest.
It won't give the timestamp version for cycles, but will show DPS with crits included, and factor in every related talent, as well as choosing between which cycle you should use (wait for Auto Shot or not).
Basically, when it's done, you'll be able to check yourself ;) Up until that point, I really can't do each calculation with different builds, gear, etc; it would take too much of my time, and I would probably fall asleep while doing it.
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

#31 Arcazua

Arcazua

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 52 posts

Posted 17 May 2006 - 04:12 PM

Lactose, it's ironic this was post with such close timing to a post I put up at the official boards...after someone reading my post, they linked me to your's. I encourage you to take a look -- http://forums.worldo...hreadID=1183364

Basically looks at a lot of the same things you do, from the perspective of "which weapon is best, assuming any shot cycle?" I don't explain the math or logic that goes into it in as much detail, but I have an entire spreadsheet I could send you if you want to mail me at f1lman@yahoo.com

#32 Lactose

Lactose

    Don Lactose

  • Members
  • 1,138 posts

Posted 17 May 2006 - 04:31 PM

Yup, I've seen the thread ;)
Actually, the list (similar to the image you link to in your first post) was something that made my make my spreadsheet (which is basically what all this is for) in the first place; I was certain Ashjre'thul would be much better than other weapons (like for example Huhuran's Stinger).
Which it has been since I got my thread stickied I think... around march 14th ;)
Although, I made it way too good then, due to lots of things, amongst others how to calculate the best cycle times for weapons not fitting a perfect 9.0 second cycle (Huhuran's Stinger specifically). Now, I don't list ranged weapons. I let you compare 1 set of build / gear with a new one (so basically, you can only compare 1 weapon at a time), allowing you to min/max your gear. For example, what gives the most increase out of a +1% crit ring and a +28 RAP one, stuff like that.
Anyway, cycles not acting correctly lead to a lot of testing and thinking, which lead to some rude formulae. They in turn lead to more testing, etc, until I posted this here. Feeling pretty good about it now, and as soon as someone can check my cycle formula* and comment on it, I'll update and upload my newest version. Will link it here and stuff, if other people want it.

Trust me though, I lurk a lot on the US Hunter forums ;)

I don't think I need the spreadsheet just yet (takes a long time to look through thoroughly, which I don't have time for right now), but I'm curious... are you using ammo as normalized as well as RAP? I seem to remember tests showing both were affected, contrary to what you might think when reading patch notes...

*[messy math]
IF CycleLength > 10; 1*MultiShot_PerCycle
IF CycleLength < 10; ((6/(10-CycleLength)) / (1+6/(10-CycleLength)))*MultiShot_PerCycle
[/messy math]
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

#33 Lactose

Lactose

    Don Lactose

  • Members
  • 1,138 posts

Posted 18 May 2006 - 04:19 PM

Updated every comparison with conflicting timers taken into consideration. Also corrected a couple of minor errors.
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

#34 Lactose

Lactose

    Don Lactose

  • Members
  • 1,138 posts

Posted 24 May 2006 - 02:40 PM

Hello again. Hope you don't mind me necroposting a bit, but new weapon, new breakdown :P

For reference, using exact same stats as with the previous calculations, just changing the stats you get from ranged weapon (so, going from Rhok'Delar to Nerubian Slavemaker, calculations are made with +7 RAP).

Stats when using Nerubian Slavemaker:
1400 RAP
+7 scope
5/5 Ranged Weapon Specialization
3/3 Barrage
3/3 Slaying vs target
15% quiver
Jagged Arrows


NERUBIAN SLAVEMAKER

15% quiver. Speed = 2.61
Set AutoShot to 579
Set AimedShot to 1201
Set MultiShot to 810
Average damage against a target, before armor is applied.

Aimed + Multi (9 sec default)

A					B
2.61 Auto Shot fires			2.61 Auto Shot fires
5.22 Auto Shot fires			5.22 Auto Shot fires
6.00 Start Aimed Shot			7.83 Auto Shot fires
9.0 Aimed Shot fires			7.83 Start Aimed Shot
9.0 Auto Shot fires			10.83 Aimed Shot fires
					10.83 Auto Shot Shot fires
+ Multi-Shot				+ Multi-Shot
CycleDPS A				CycleDPS B
= (3*579 + 1201 + 0.86*810) / 9.0	= (4*579 + 1201 + 810) / 10.83
= 3634.6 / 9.0				= 4327 / 10.83
= 403.84 (optimal cycle)		= 399.54
Multi + Aimed cycle (10 sec default)


A					B
2.61 Auto Shot fires			2.61 Auto Shot fires
5.22 Auto Shot fires			5.22 Auto Shot fires
5.50 Multi-Shot fires			6.33 Multi-Shot fires
7.0 Start Aimed Shot			7.83 Auto Shot fires
10.0 Aimed Shot fires			7.83 Start Aimed Shot
10.0 Auto Shot fires			10.83 Aimed Shot fires
					10.83 Auto Shot fires
CycleDPS A				CycleDPS B
= (3*579 + 1201 + 810) / 10		= (4*579 + 1201 + 810) / 10.83
= 3748 / 10.0				= 4327 / 11.70
= 374.80				= 399.54 (optimal cycle)
Optimal cycle: Aimed + Multi (9 second default) A - 403.84

Compared to Ashjre'thul's optimal cycle:
Optimal cycle: Aimed + Multi (9 second default) A - 412.54

Nerubian Slavemaker has 1% more crit than Ashjre'thul. This does not compensate for the lower DPS; Ashjre'thul still comes out on top in a PvE setting.

Before you mention anything regarding cycles being impossible etc:
They're not. Of course, timing them perfectly (especially the ones with optimal cycle lengths of for example 9.55) is practically impossible. However, getting as close to it as possible will be the most damaging cycle. Thus, the theoretical calculations I give you will show you the most damaging cycle.
This is even more true for the "pure" cycles (9 sec Aimed Shot + Multi, or 10 sec Multi + Aimed). You don't have to timer, you don't need to pay attention to your Auto Shots, just spam the button, the cooldowns make sure you can't fire too fast.

If Nerubian Slavemaker had been 3.3 or 3.4 speed, I'd be happier.

For those interested, optimal cycle for 3.3 = 429.11; 3.4 = 433.44
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

#35 KalelScilla

KalelScilla

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 185 posts

Posted 24 May 2006 - 03:15 PM

So even though the slavemaker has higher weapon damage and higher dps than the Smiting xbow, because of the loss of autoshots due to aimed shot still casting in each cycle (you lose .39 seconds each aimed shot) it still ends up less? Or is it just a trick of the math that a weapon with a higher damage range and higher dps post-normalization still is inferior dps? /headscratch

#36 Praetorian

Praetorian

    Mike Tyson

  • ♦ Administrators
  • 27,761 posts

Posted 24 May 2006 - 03:26 PM

Edit: Nevermind, I'm dumb.

Autoshot needs to be normalized too, clearly.

So even though the slavemaker has higher weapon damage and higher dps than the Smiting xbow, because of the loss of autoshots due to aimed shot still casting in each cycle (you lose .39 seconds each aimed shot) it still ends up less? Or is it just a trick of the math that a weapon with a higher damage range and higher dps post-normalization still is inferior dps?

Just look at the numbers above the math -- that's all that matters. SO much of hunters' damage comes from their RAP that a difference of 0.3 or 0.4 in speed will lower autoshot damage enough that it will outweigh any gains from base weapon damage.

#37 Moridin

Moridin

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 190 posts

Posted 24 May 2006 - 03:48 PM

Dang, I hadn't done the calculations myself, but had hoped the extra damage would outweigh the speed difference. And I allready got noticably more ap then that even with the same specc, so once you got the naxx gear, as well as the naxx xbow, it should be very much higher, which will favour the bwl xbow even more since it'll add equally to the dps, except nerubian loses some due to speed, and bwl one loses nothing. (oh well, at least we should get a new best ranged wep at some point in expansion, patch 1.6 -> expansion isn't too long to wait I guess. Can always hope they change the way Aimed/auto interact, to make hunter weapon about more then speed).

edit: And while as mentioned, a perfect cycle is rather hard to attain, the more ap you get, the more significant the dpsloss for a non-optimal speed weapon like this would be, making even a flawed cycle, running around at times, etc, not change the outcome.
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings,
Look on my Works ye Mighty, and despair!

#38 probiscus

probiscus

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,011 posts

Posted 24 May 2006 - 03:59 PM

Sophomoric question but: at what point does a weapon swap (in your damage cycles) begin to make sense?

EDIT: for clarification

#39 Praetorian

Praetorian

    Mike Tyson

  • ♦ Administrators
  • 27,761 posts

Posted 24 May 2006 - 04:03 PM

A separate question, if I understand correctly -- is it possible that, because of normalization, you could get better cycle DPS if the weapon were faster?

The problem is that if you can only fit in 2 autoshots in 6 seconds, you want them to hit as hard as possible, so you want a really slow weapon. But what if a weapon were 2.3 speed, such that you could fit in a third autoshot? Yes, you'd obviously lose some base weapon damage on your specials, but would the third autoshot make up for it?

Since I'm lazy, what would the numbers be if Slavemaker were 2.3 speed instead of 3.0, with the same DPS?

#40 Lactose

Lactose

    Don Lactose

  • Members
  • 1,138 posts

Posted 24 May 2006 - 04:10 PM

KalelScilla -- What Praetorian said

Moridin -- What do you mean by noticably? Talking pure self-buffed RAP, you can't possibly that much higher than me, you don't have tier 3 yet :P
Good point regarding flawed cycles btw.

probiscus -- Not sure what you're asking..?

Praetorian -- Will check and post in a sec, have to run to the store to get some groceries first :P
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users