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Hunter damage cycles breakdown (Nerubian Slavemaker update)


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#41 Elendril

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 04:12 PM

can you do the math with 1900 attack power? that's much closer to realistic raid buffed AP with naxx gear - i already have over 1700 already :-P

#42 chalon

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 04:20 PM

Not to discount your math, as I know absolutely nothing about hunter mechanics, but according to your work the Xbow of Smiting is the best, but several other cycle DPS breakdowns I've seen claim that Huhuran's Stinger is the best out of current available weapons (though only slightly higher than the Xbow). Is it because they are allowing auto-shots to finish as opposed to adhering to the strict 9 or 10s cycles?

#43 chalon

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 04:24 PM

Found a ss:
http://img50.imagesh...=28nerf29xs.gif

#44 Lactose

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 04:25 PM

Elendril -- Will do, but will only post optimal cycle DPS, can't be bothered doing timestamps etc :P

chalon -- The error is that they've used a 10 sec rotation as standard, based on the Multi-Shot cooldown. This favors faster weapons, able to get an extra Auto Shot in their cycle compared to slow weapons like Ashjre'thul. What I do is I take the 9 sec default cycle, then compare it to a 9 sec cycle with an added Auto Shot (obviously making the cycle longer than 9 sec), then the same with the 10 sec cycles.

Edit: Like your screenshot, repeatable cycle for Ashjre'thul is set to 10 seconds, while it performs better under a 9 second cycle. Read my first post for more info =)
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#45 Elendril

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 04:28 PM

math hurts my head.

if you don't mind, i'm going to forward this thread along to some people i know who know people who are in positions to look at something like this in a meaningful way :-P

#46 KalelScilla

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 04:32 PM

Just look at the numbers above the math -- that's all that matters. SO much of hunters' damage comes from their RAP that a difference of 0.3 or 0.4 in speed will lower autoshot damage enough that it will outweigh any gains from base weapon damage.

Ultimately though autoshot dps is weapon-speed irrelevant unless you measure over a very short period of time, unless I'm completely retarded. With the way we're doing the cycle math, it depends very heavily on the speed of the weapon whether you get 3 or 4 autoshots in the time allotted - it's a very short window.

However the slavemaker should have more autoshot damage than the smiting xbow over time. And since the weapon damage is higher, the multi-shots and aimed shots should be hitting harder too. I'm still scratching my head over this.

Edit: math that doesn't matter to my point is removed

The trick being, if you do in fact lose .31 seconds per 10 seconds on auto-shots due to the faster speed waiting for aimed shot to cast, vs. losing .04 seconds per 10 seconds with smiting bow, that means 3.1% of your autoshot damage is gone from the slavemaker vs. only .4% with the smiting xbow. And I think thats the real loss.

How does blizzard fix this? Adding more 3.4 speed weapons? Or change the aimed shot mechanic so that the slow weapons aren't universally better until 20dps improvements happen?

#47 Snowcrasher

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 04:42 PM

The strict theory (and shot cycles) analysis of ranged weapons always makes a bad assumption - an unlimited source of mana (probably not a bad assumption for alliance :( ).

Once out of mana (if not potting or FD-drinking) then the Slavemaker would obviously do more significantly more damage whenever the hunter is just autoshooting. And for each raid setup (gear/spec/buffs) what is the breaking point between the loss of DPS from FD-drinking to the gain of having a full mana bar to return to full DPS cycle... as straight autoshot DPS increases FD-drinking becomes less likely to provide a positive DPS return over simply continuing to attack.

#48 Praetorian

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 04:44 PM

The trick being, if you do in fact lose .31 seconds per 10 seconds on auto-shots due to the faster speed waiting for aimed shot to cast, vs. losing .04 seconds per 10 seconds with smiting bow, that means 3.1% of your autoshot damage is gone from the slavemaker vs. only .4% with the smiting xbow. And I think thats the real loss.

How does blizzard fix this? Adding more 3.4 speed weapons? Or change the aimed shot mechanic so that the slow weapons aren't universally better until 20dps improvements happen?

That's another way of looking at it, yes. The problem is, indeed, that going from 3.4 to 3.0 is that, in theory, your individual autoshots hit a bit less hard (due to a lower AP multiplier), but you get more of them so you end up doing the same DPS. But when you're fitting them in between specials, which you almost always are, you aren't actually getting any more autoshots.

One random idea completely off the top of my head would be to add a new hunter passive skill (might be a good example of a mid-60s skill for the expansion) called Quick Shot, that, when you do a special, simultaneously fires off a weaker autoshot, which is regular autoshot multiplied by [(time elapsed since last autoshot) / (autoshot cooldown)], above some minimum floor like 0.2.

So if your autoshot time is 2.5 sec modified, and you shoot at 2.5sec, then again at 5.0 sec, then when you do Aimed/Multi at 6.0 sec, you'd also immediately fire off a Quick Shot that does (1.0/2.5) = 40% of your normal autoshot damage. This way you could recapture that lost damage and autoshot would be weapon-speed-independent as always intended.

#49 chalon

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 04:44 PM

But if multi-shot has a 10s cooldown, how's a 9-sec cycle possible?

#50 Elendril

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 04:54 PM

But if multi-shot has a 10s cooldown, how's a 9-sec cycle possible?

it's a 9 second average cycle, with the multishot damage per second calculated in, rather than a 10 second cycle including each skill.

#51 KalelScilla

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 04:58 PM

I can't really come up with any way in the current mechanics to fix it without adding something kludgy.. if Blizzard really takes a good look at this they'll probably nerf it by making aimed reset the auto shot timer.

#52 Lurchington

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 05:05 PM

I can't really come up with any way in the current mechanics to fix it without adding something kludgy.. if Blizzard really takes a good look at this they'll probably nerf it by making aimed reset the auto shot timer.

according to what I've read that's the way it used to be, but those same sources said it was an across the board hunter DPS nerf. It'd be a dangerous thing to try again.

#53 Gwaihir

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 05:10 PM

Aimed shot used to reset the auto shot timer, but was changed to its current form in the hunter review patch (1.7)

<Gwaihir> mage time is like booterang
<Gwaihir> AUGH BOOTERANG
<Gwaihir> AUGH MAGE TIME
<Ama> AUGH MAGE TIME
<XI|> AUGH MAGE TIME


#54 Snowcrasher

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 06:04 PM

They could fix it by continuing to run the autoshot timer even when an autoshot is 'banked' during the casting of aimed shot (essentially completely decoupling specials and auto).

#55 KalelScilla

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 06:05 PM

Anybody good at math want to calculate the equation to figure out at what speed/dps a weapon becomes an upgrade over smiting xbow? :)

#56 Elendril

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 06:25 PM

well, the issue is that the slower your weapon is, the more contribution you get from AP, and the way hunter damage mechanics work, FAR more of your damage comes from AP than from actual weapon DPS. these calculations are based on 1400 AP, which actually significantly undershoots realistic raid buffed numbers with naxx gear (i have over 1700 raid buffed already), so the gap will just widen.

the optimal weapon speed for a ranged weapon is fundamentally tied to the cooldown of aimed shot and how many shots you can take during that cooldown/what percentage of shot time you 'lose' during the casting time of aimed shot. with current quiver haste being what it is, ash has pretty much the perfect weapon speed possible - as slow as you're going to get that still allows you to fit two shots in between your aimed shots. it's possible that a weapon that can fit three perfect shots in 6 seconds (with sufficiently high base damage to make up the multishot/aimed shot gap) could outperform the 2-shot cycle, but that's speculative math that i personally can't really do at work, or maybe even at all :)

#57 Steelfleece

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 07:38 PM

How sad. Well, the best way for Blizzard to get around this without nerfing hunter DPS is to make all the weapons 3.3 speed or slower, but I doubt they'll do that. Instead, they'll probably do something that nerfs Hunter DPS accross the board again, or speed up the crossbow of smiting.
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#58 Fendryl

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 07:46 PM

They could fix it by continuing to run the autoshot timer even when an autoshot is 'banked' during the casting of aimed shot (essentially completely decoupling specials and auto).

They could also just reduced Aimed's casting time to 2.0 or even 1.5, and then add the remainer on the cooldown. It'd allow for much fewer, if any autoshots to be lost during aimed; however, I'm sure there'd be some PvP pushback about a 1.5sec aimed.

Banked shots could be a problem too, because it's going to mean an even bigger burst coming after an aimed. People already are pretty annoyed by an Aimed/Multi/Auto combo hitting them, throwing in an extra auto is just asking for more whining.

#59 Hamlet

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 08:36 PM

One random idea completely off the top of my head would be to add a new hunter passive skill (might be a good example of a mid-60s skill for the expansion) called Quick Shot, that, when you do a special, simultaneously fires off a weaker autoshot, which is regular autoshot multiplied by [(time elapsed since last autoshot) / (autoshot cooldown)], above some minimum floor like 0.2.

So if your autoshot time is 2.5 sec modified, and you shoot at 2.5sec, then again at 5.0 sec, then when you do Aimed/Multi at 6.0 sec, you'd also immediately fire off a Quick Shot that does (1.0/2.5) = 40% of your normal autoshot damage. This way you could recapture that lost damage and autoshot would be weapon-speed-independent as always intended.

I can't possibly see them going to that high a level of complexity for a sake of mathematical soundness. If they were so willing, many more things in this game would be different.

--------

As to the question at hand, we have a sort of resonance phenomenon. Weapons perform best when their speed (after all modifiers) divides evenly into 6s. Ashjre'Thul, at 2.96, hits right on the mark. It's because those speeds minimize the lost auto-shot time in a 9s cycle. If your speed is slightly slow, say 3.1, it will still be optimal to wait the extra 0.2 seconds for Aimed, but your Aimed Shots still come less frequently than the guy with the 3.0 weapon. If you're slightly fast, you lose the minor amount of time between the last Autoshot and the beginning of Aimed. At 2.9 speed, you wind up taking 6s to do an amount of Autoshot damage that was scaled for 5.8 seconds.

Basically, if you have the capability do to this with a spreadsheet or something, plot optimal DPS as a function of weapon speed, holding all other things constant. The peaks will be at 2.0 and 3.0.

#60 Elendril

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 09:25 PM

Basically, if you have the capability do to this with a spreadsheet or something, plot optimal DPS as a function of weapon speed, holding all other things constant. The peaks will be at 2.0 and 3.0.

that's basically what i was saying but with more math :)




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