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[Enhancement] BiS gear and set-up discussion


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#41 Rouncer

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 01:49 PM

Well I already said i didn t know how to handel the config file, so thanks for your advice.

The race doesn´t seem to chance anything (still getting 7430 dps as Tauren) as long you are not wearing axes, (strange because auf the orc racial), so i forgot to chance it back to tauren,my fault here.



Blood Fury - Spell - World of Warcraft

You also have combat length set to 5 minutes instead of 10 and you have latency set to 0.

#42 Yo!

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 01:49 PM

As for the integrity of the Enhsim versus other sims, I will only say that Enhsim is as accurate a sim tool as the community is currently able to maintain. It provides a largely accurate testing environment and given the support provided by many people, bugs are often identified and corrected (such as currently occuring with the matter of swing timers and non-instant casts). Simcraft, according to one of the authors, is providing results with around 1% standard deviation from Enhsim, so I am sure that this is also a valuable tool. Rawr is not a useful tool for us as its since you cannot dictate an ability priority list.


Can you please prove your words that "It provides a largely accurate testing environment"?
I would be very interested in methodology of evaluating simulators accuracy in order to make such claims.
Do you have huge data samples of fully buffed raids beating dummies for 10 minutes?
In fact community is not able now to maintain bug-fixing frequency that Tukez was maintaining and no one knows how many bugs are left.
My point is - this maxdps number and BiS list are completely dependant on current version of one program (if next update will lower the maxdps number - you are going to lower it too, are not you?) and it has to be stated very clearly, not hidden into disclaimer part alongside with minor conventions.

#43 gilf

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 02:31 PM

Can you please prove your words that "It provides a largely accurate testing environment"?
I would be very interested in methodology of evaluating simulators accuracy in order to make such claims.
Do you have huge data samples of fully buffed raids beating dummies for 10 minutes?
In fact community is not able now to maintain bug-fixing frequency that Tukez was maintaining and no one knows how many bugs are left.
My point is - this maxdps number and BiS list are completely dependant on current version of one program (if next update will lower the maxdps number - you are going to lower it too, are not you?) and it has to be stated very clearly, not hidden into disclaimer part alongside with minor conventions.


The complaint about not being able to maintain the source is not true. The community has been fixing bugs in the enhsim code since the source has been publicly available all along. Just recently, the armor pen calculations were changed to reflect the Ghostcrawler post on the same subject.

As far as comparing other simulations, it seems to be a worthwhile endeavor but ultimately outside of the scope of this thread. The point of the thread is, as Rouncer noted, about the gear, not the specific number which will never be attained anyway, even on a fully debuffed target dummy. An easier way to check this would be to try and get Rawr or simcraft to somehow disagree with the gear list in the thread. Even if the numbers are slightly different, but the maxdps gearset is the same, it's a non-issue. That's a lot easier than getting a raid together to fight a target dummy.

#44 Yo!

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 03:42 PM

The complaint about not being able to maintain the source is not true. The community has been fixing bugs in the enhsim code since the source has been publicly available all along. Just recently, the armor pen calculations were changed to reflect the Ghostcrawler post on the same subject.
As far as comparing other simulations, it seems to be a worthwhile endeavor but ultimately outside of the scope of this thread. The point of the thread is, as Rouncer noted, about the gear, not the specific number which will never be attained anyway, even on a fully debuffed target dummy. An easier way to check this would be to try and get Rawr or simcraft to somehow disagree with the gear list in the thread. Even if the numbers are slightly different, but the maxdps gearset is the same, it's a non-issue. That's a lot easier than getting a raid together to fight a target dummy.


1) the purpose of this thread is BiS gear found in Enhsim , that what is used. It is pointless to protect it's "universal" status.

2) there is Rawr BiS list already, anyone can find it using optimizer, and it is different.
[Enhancement] Discussion on Ulduar Loot List & BiS

3) Simcrafft team uses BiS gear for reports such as this
SampleOutput - simulationcraft - Google Code
but I do not know if they find it with simcraft or export from other sources

4) and as you asked (Off-topic):
Downloads - enhsim - Google Code there were 64 Tukez' updates over 9 month (7 per month), comparing to EnhSim - Release: v1.8.1 5 updates + 2 (v 1.7.0.1 and 1.7.0.2) over 3 month (2.3 per month), so my claim about update frequency being much lower now is correct.
Sim's current accuracy is not meassured with the number of past updates, one may claim that current version is absolutly correct ("not guilty until proven" style). Number of updates can only hint to how much work is needed to make it better and better.

#45 Vespasian

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 03:47 PM

Donadon, thank you for your efforts but the combat log you have submitted was invalid and when corrected, netted about 7311 DPS.

Yo! wrote:
My point is - this maxdps number and BiS list are completely dependant on current version of one program (if next update will lower the maxdps number - you are going to lower it too, are not you?) and it has to be stated very clearly, not hidden into disclaimer part alongside with minor conventions.


With regards to the integrity of Enhsim, I go to great lengths to clarify its role in this project. To quote the introductory post:

How is ‘highest potential dps’ defined?
For the purposes of this exercise, ‘highest potential dps’ is defined as the maximum possible DPS achievable within the current version Enhsim DPS simulator created Turkez (EnhSim - Home with the latest executable authored by Sylvand). [...]

It is important to understand the limitations of simulation. Simulation offers a glimpse of character performance under perfect conditions- set latency, no human reaction delay, no system lag, a perfect rotation on a stationary target for thousands of hours. Your actual results will vary greatly from what you observe in the sim, but the sim will give you a clear indication of maximum DPS potential.


I explain that 'highest potential DPS' is defined as that achieved within Enhsim, and I then go on to explain the limitations of simulation (your actual results will vary greatly). I do not think an entire section devoted to this matter constitutes an effort to conceal the nature of our methodology. The information is neither hidden nor along side 'minor conventions'.

Coming back to Cat's, I will take some time to consider some alternatives to the way we are currently approaching things.

#46 Vespasian

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 04:42 PM

1) the purpose of this thread is BiS gear found in Enhsim , that what is used. It is pointless to protect it's "universal" status.

2) there is Rawr BiS list already, anyone can find it using optimizer, and it is different.
[Enhancement] Discussion on Ulduar Loot List & BiS

3) Simcrafft team uses BiS gear for reports such as this
SampleOutput - simulationcraft - Google Code
but I do not know if they find it with simcraft or export from other sources


I think you are comparing a number of things here that are quite different. This thread is not devoted solely to BiS gear but also to a BiS setup that supports that gear (gems, enchants, talents, glyphs, rotations etc). Rawr does not give us a chance to manipulate our ability priority order, so its DPS output is going to be based on a static priority list that may not always suit our gear (PVP totem providing a buff from LL for instance), our Glyphs (ES_SS priority would be affected by SS glyph) and ability priority order (MW3_CL results in huge OOM time if mana talents are not present). Given this, we can at least agree that Rawr is insufficient as a DPS measurement tool and that its results are going to be inaccurate.

I will admit that I am unfamiliar with Simcraft, however one of the Simcraft authors recently posted that his results were within 1% of Enhsim results. We can then generally say that Enhsim and Simcraft are extremely similar in their modelling of the game environment, so we can discuss it in the same way we do Enhsim.

Since Enhsim has a year of updates on an in-game environment that has changed little in that time (the core, underlying mechanics of WoW have not changed greatly) and since the Sim is still being updated atm (recent ArP calculation changes, v1.8.1 changes to swing timer resets on casts [still being tested]) I think we can say that it is a fairly accurate tool that for our purposes.

Obviously the tool is never going to be 100% accurate, but given that no superior simulation tool currently exists, that its functionality meets our needs and that it has survived for a year as a respected, reviewed and updated tool, I think we can say that is the most appropriate and accurate tool for a project such as this. Again, I will say that I make our reliance upon this tool very clear in the introductory post.

If you are able to point us to a more accurate DPS simulation environment/tool I would be keen to explore that as a new standard for this thread.

#47 kurai01

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 06:55 PM

cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       750

Raising the minimum mana amount required to trigger Shamanistic Rage will also improve the reported EnhSim DPS. I would cite the exact increase, but I'm using EnhSim 1.8.1 and my output exceeds your reported value with your config. That said, I've always found 750 to be too low when my OOM time was greater than 0.

Try setting it to 2000, this value brings the OOM time to 0.01%. (from your reported 0.18%) The greater the initial OOM %, the more impact increasing this time represents, but don't go past 0% as it will result in a decrease to reported DPS.

#48 ksubi

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 01:49 PM

Current DPS: ~7430

EnhSim Config:
### Saved by version 1.7.0 of EnhSimGUI

simulation_time                 5000
simulation_time_combatlog       30
combat_length                   10
report_count                    80
threads                         2
min_lag                         50
max_lag                         60
simulate_mana                   1

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           200
ep_crit_rating                  30
ep_hit_rating                   30
ep_expertise                    4
ep_haste_rating                 30
ep_armor_penetration_rating     30
ep_spellpower                   150
ep_dps                          7.5
ep_mana                         250
ep_spirit                       150
ep_mp5                          20

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd              0.00
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd        1
bloodlust_casters               1
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets    1
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left        15.0
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left    4
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left    0
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       2000
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    3000

rotation_priority_count         10
rotation_priority1              SR
rotation_priority2              SW
rotation_priority3              MW5_LB
rotation_priority4              SS
rotation_priority5              ES
rotation_priority6              MT
rotation_priority7              LS
rotation_priority8              LL
rotation_priority9              MW3_CL
rotation_priority10             MW4_LB

miss                            8.0
dodge                           6.5
glancing                        24.0
armor                           10645
spell_miss                      17.0
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

armor_debuff_major              20.0/20.0
armor_debuff_minor              5.0/5.0
physical_vulnerability_debuff   4.0/4.0
melee_haste_buff                20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat          687/687
attack_power_buff_multiplier    99.7/99.7
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        5.0/5.0
spell_damage_debuff             13.0/13.0
spellpower_buff                 280/280
spell_hit_chance_debuff         3.0/3.0
haste_buff                      3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff              3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff                   51/51
agi_and_strength_buff           178/178
intellect_buff                  60/60

replenishment                   1
water_shield                    0
mana_spring_totem               0
blessing_of_wisdom              1
judgement_of_wisdom             1

flask_elixir                    flask_of_endless_rage
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          potion_of_speed
food                            fish_feast

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            tauren
mh_speed                        2.7
oh_speed                        2.7
mh_dps                          188.1
oh_dps                          178.9
mh_crit                         34.42
oh_crit                         34.42
mh_hit                          13.02
oh_hit                          13.02
mh_expertise_rating             140
oh_expertise_rating             140
ap                              4646
melee_haste                     11.42
armor_penetration               5.12
str                             141
agi                             970
int                             502
spi                             161
spellpower                      1394
spell_crit                      25.07
spell_hit                       16.28
spell_haste                     8.78
max_mana                        11646
mp5                             0

mh_imbue                        windfury
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      3789
oh_enchant                      3789

mh_weapon                       -
oh_weapon                       -

trinket1                        45609
trinket2                        45522

totem                           deadly_gladiators_totem_of_indomitability

set_bonus1                      worldbreaker_battlegear_4
set_bonus2                      -
set_bonus3                      -

metagem                         41285

gloves_enchant                  -
cloak_enchant                   -

glyph_major1                    feral_spirit
glyph_major2                    stormstrike
glyph_major3                    windfury_weapon

glyph_minor1                    -
glyph_minor2                    -
glyph_minor3                    -

ancestral_knowledge             2/5
improved_shields                3/3
mental_dexterity                3/3
shamanistic_focus               1/1
flurry                          5/5
elemental_weapons               3/3
unleashed_rage                  3/3
weapon_mastery                  3/3
dual_wield_specialization       3/3
mental_quickness                3/3
improved_stormstrike            2/2
static_shock                    3/3
maelstrom_weapon                5/5

convection                      0/5
concussion                      5/5
call_of_flame                   3/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
reverberation                   0/5
elemental_focus                 0/1
elemental_fury                  5/5
call_of_thunder                 0/1
unrelenting_storm               0/3
elemental_precision             0/3
lightning_mastery               0/5
elemental_oath                  0/2
lightning_overload              0/5
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/3
shamanism                       0/5

DPS Report:
EnhSim version 1.8.2

................................................................................

MH:
miss                957968         7.97%
dodge               0              0.00%
glancing            2883746        23.99%
hit                 2278778        18.96%
crit                5899503        49.08%
clip                333026         2.70%

MH Windfury:
procs/hits          16.09%
procs/swings        15.00%
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 2026845        47.94%
crit                2201313        52.06%

MH Storsmtrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 994614         47.97%
crit                1078718        52.03%

OH:
miss                960182         7.99%
dodge               0              0.00%
glancing            2884855        24.00%
hit                 2278075        18.95%
crit                5896881        49.06%
clip                333028         2.70%

OH Flametongue:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 9399447        60.90%
crit                6034299        39.10%

OH Stormstrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 994027         47.94%
crit                1079305        52.06%

Earth Shock:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 1535791        60.93%
crit                984916         39.07%

Lava Lash:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 1102387        47.92%
crit                1198216        52.08%

Lightning Bolt:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 1460944        60.81%
crit                941599         39.19%

Chain Lightning:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 791180         60.96%
crit                506667         39.04%

Lightning Shield:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 2275008        100.00%
crit                0              0.00%

Spirit Wolves:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               579162         6.49%
glancing            2145230        24.02%
hit                 5180722        58.02%
crit                1024620        11.47%

Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM                 59.04

flurry uptime                  95.80%
unleashed rage uptime          0.00%
elemental devastation uptime   80.78%
elemental oath uptime          0.00%

mh enchant uptime              42.64%
oh enchant uptime              37.95%
trinket1 uptime                20.52%
trinket2 uptime                18.08%
totem uptime                   76.69%
set bonus uptime               0.00%
metagem uptime                 0.00%
gloves enchant uptime          0.00%
cloak enchant uptime           0.00%

                    MRPS without overregen
mana regen          0.00      0.00%
mp5                 17.83     5.97%
replenishment       34.97     11.70%
unrelenting storm   0.00      0.00%
judgement of wisdom 8.81      2.95%
shamanistic rage    136.73    45.75%
mana potion         0.00      0.00%
misc                0.00      0.00%
stormstrike         100.54    33.64%

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               2134.69   28.72%    80.13
windfury            893.78    12.03%    7.05
flametongue         576.57    7.76%     51.45
stormstrike         472.92    6.36%     6.91      38.08     12.27%
lava lash           387.06    5.21%     7.67      21.13     6.81%
magma totem         567.57    7.64%     2.82      52.36     16.88%
earth shock         606.77    8.16%     8.40      54.30     17.50%
lightning bolt      825.52    11.11%    8.01      58.68     18.91%
chain lightning     423.53    5.7%      4.33      82.41     26.56%
lightning shield    243.64    3.28%     0.84      0.00      0.00%
spirit wolves       300.49    4.04%     0.40      3.31      1.07%

DPS                 7432.53
MPS                 310.25
MP2min              37229.97
MRPS                321.66
Out of mana time    0.02%

elapsed simulation time: 5000.00h
elapsed real time: 20.88s
simulation speed: 862110x

Link to Rawr File: 001.xml

As per the instructions I did sim this in the 1.7.0 to calculate mana, however I came across a problem with it whereby I would never get below 2% out of mana time.
I thought this strange and tried it with the current "Max DPS" gear and spec setup and it simmed the same so perhaps I've done something wrong in my config.
Any feedback would be great.

#49 Levva

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 04:38 PM

Rawr does not give us a chance to manipulate our ability priority order, so its DPS output is going to be based on a static priority list that may not always suit our gear (PVP totem providing a buff from LL for instance), our Glyphs (ES_SS priority would be affected by SS glyph) and ability priority order (MW3_CL results in huge OOM time if mana talents are not present). Given this, we can at least agree that Rawr is insufficient as a DPS measurement tool and that its results are going to be inaccurate.


As the person who brought Rawr up to patch 3.0+ standards I'd be happy to work with you to improve Rawr to cater for what you believe to be missing. At present it uses the standard priority list as commonly used in EnhSim and defaulted to in my other contribution to the Enh Shaman community ShockAndAwe.

I am perfectly capable of adapting Rawr to cater for what you need. I would however agree that at present EnhSim is likely to give better results as its a SIMULATOR and NOT a closed form solution. Part of my testing of Rawr has involved checking its output vs EnhSim. This has mostly lead to improvements in Rawr but from time to time I find bugs in EnhSim and due to my creation of the project on Codeplex and soliciting help to get someone to maintain it we now have a community maintained version of EnhSim where we can get bugs fixed faster.

Yo! However is right we have no independent verification that the Sim is producing the right results. So the BiS calcs can only be said to be BiS according to EnhSim.

It would also be a good idea to maintain say a top 5 set of "BiS" models. So that whenever there was a new version of EnhSim out you could always re-check the top 5 to see if there were any changes as its entirely possible that the current BiS could be knocked off if a bug is found in the sim.

Since Enhsim has a year of updates on an in-game environment that has changed little in that time (the core, underlying mechanics of WoW have not changed greatly) and since the Sim is still being updated atm (recent ArP calculation changes, v1.8.1 changes to swing timer resets on casts [still being tested]) I think we can say that it is a fairly accurate tool that for our purposes.


This simply isn't true. EnhSim came into existence during Sunwell Raiding after Yo!'s sim which was the primary sim everyone was using up until that point had ceased to be current. BTW for that reason alone you'd be wise to understand that Yo! does know what he is talking about when it comes to Simulators. Tukez then actively maintained it until March/April this year since when he has been afk.

After much wailing and gnashing of teeth about lack of updates an update came out in the shape of version 1.7.0.3. Then in order to promote a community shared source I created the EnhSim codeplex site and hosted the latest source there. Sylvand then a couple of weeks ago agreed to update the source.

Thus it is wrong to say that EnhSim has had a year of updates, it was heavily maintained up until mid April then a complete lack of updates until mid June then nothing for a month until v1.8.0 and the latest changes this weekend past. ie: only one minor update in 3 months until Sylvand came onboard and did his updates recently.
Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.

#50 Vespasian

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 05:02 AM

Run speed enchants to boots

I looked at this issue in great detail as the math that was provided on the TTT was totally incomprehensible to me and I was deferring to community consensus on the issue rather than to a clear understanding based on numbers. I decided to go back and do my own. I will be the first to admit that my math is generally pretty unreliable, so please correct it as you see fit. I do anticipate that at least some of the math in this post will be incorrect.

The following post is EXTREMELY simplistic in its explanation, bordering on patronising. Believe me that its style is for my benefit alone, and I apologise for how laboriously it reads.

Run speed provides a speed increase of 8%. Broken down:
  • If you are running for 1 second, you will get to your destination 0.080 seconds faster.
  • If you are running for 1 minute, you will get to your destination 4.8 seconds faster.
  • If you are running for 5 minutes, you will get to your destination 24 seconds faster.
  • If you are running for 10 minutes, you will get to your destination 48 seconds faster.
Using a BiS set up (roughly 7400 DPS), Cat’s Swiftness over Icewalker nets a 20DPS decrease. Broken down:
  • Over a minute encounter, this is 1200 total dmg
  • Over a 5 minute encounter this is 6000 total dmg
  • Over a 10 minute encounter this is 12000 total dmg
Using a 7400 DPS build, we can then ask how much extra DPS time we need on the target to off-set this lost 12000 dmg?

12000 dmg lost/7400 DPS (how much DMG you do) = 1.6 seconds.

So in a 10 minute encounter:
  • If you GAIN an extra 1.6 seconds worth of DPS time on the target as a result of your Cat’s Swiftness enchant, then you have not lost any dmg- you have broken even versus Icewalker.
  • If you do not gain an extra 1.6 seconds on the target, then you have in fact lost dmg vs Icewalker. Icewalker would have given you 12000 dmg, where as your run speed has given you less.
  • If you gain more than 1.6 seconds on the target, then you have gained more DPS than what Icewalker would have been able to provide. Icewalker would have given you 12000 dmg, but your ability to DPS the boss for longer means that you will do more total dmg.

We must then work out how much running we have to do to for run speed enchant to get us to our destination 1.6 seconds faster. This 1.6 second GAIN must logically be 8% of the total non-DPS travel time (since run speed is an 8% speed increase). So over a 10 minute encounter, that equates to:

X/100*8=1.6 seconds
X= 20 seconds


So:
  • If during a 10 minute encounter you are geared to do 7400 DPS and you spend 20 seconds travelling between DPS targets, Cat's Swiftness will get you to your target 1.6 seconds faster than if you did not have the enchant, and that 1.6 seconds worth of DPS time would equate to 12000 dmg, the same amount of dmg that Icewalker provides over the course of 10mins.
  • Travel for more than 20 seconds and you gain even more total dmg on your target (more than the 12000 dmg provided by Icewalker) and so the run speed enchant is superior.
  • Travel for less than 20 seconds and the run speed enchant has not provided the required 12000 dmg, making Icewalker better.

I wanted to apply these results to Ulduar. The following is a list of Ulduar encounters and the approximate travelling time an Enh Shaman would be forced to endure. All listings are for the hard modes. I am aware that these values are highly subject to both your guild’s strats and RNG (getting chain gravity bombed on XT for instance). They are however entirely accurate in my experience, and I will guess that most people have had similar experiences.

[TABLE]Encounter|Duration|Avg run time| Explanation
Razorscale|5m|0-10s|Running between groups of adds. Running to Razor when she lands..
Ignis|5m|0s|You are constantly on the boss
XT|10m|0-20s| Running out for gravity bombs
Iron Council|8m|10-20s| Running out for 4 (four) overloads/runes of death (depending on strat)
Kolargon|5m|0-10s|Running back to boss after being grabbed
Auriaya|5m|5-10s|Running back after fears
Hodir|3m|5-10s|Running between Frozen targets on the pull, then running to boss.
Thorim|7m|0-10s|Running out to meet an add to begin DPS early (as you walk it back to the middle).
Freya|10m|30s+|Running between various adds and trees
Mimiron|9m|30s+|Avoiding his AoE, chasing adds in P3
General|9m|0s|You are constantly on the boss
Yogg|12m|30s+|Running between adds, tentacles and the brain rooms.
Algalon|8m|10-20s|Avoiding Cosmic Smashes, running in and out of portals for Big Bang.[/TABLE]

In your average 5 minute encounter, someone pushing 7400 DPS will need to be running for more than 10 seconds to see run speed as the superior enchant. At a more realistic 6k DPS, the shaman will need to be running for 12.5 secs to reach the break even point. In the case of many examples listed above, the run speed provides either a breakeven benefit or no benefit at all. The only examples where run speed clearly provides superior DPS are Freya, Mimi and Yogg. The rest have very limited run times that are dependent upon luck of the draw, and even then your number may number come up (admittedly, your number might be also be spammed, in which case the run speed would be superior).

Conclusion
I set out to challenge the consensus that run speed will provide superior DPS on most encounters and should therefore be considered the single BiS enchant. Looking at these numbers, I am not convinced that run speed provides a clear, superior DPS benefit over Icewalker in a majority of encounters because:
1) Many encounters derive no benefit from the enchant whatsoever;
2) Many encounters will see the total dmg gained from run speed being roughly equal to that provided by Icewalker.

I would however note the scalability of run speed vs Icewalker. As your DPS increases, the value of run speed over Icewalker increases greatly. We seem to be a point in the content cycle where the duration of encounters and our DPS intersect to make both of these enchants equally viable. This will change in time as average DPS increases. For now however, I am of the opinion that run speed provides no clear benefit over Icewalker to the point where we must make it a mandatory aspect of this exercise. I will continue to allow Icewalker as an enchant, pending the discussion that my flawed math and generic encounter descriptions will generate.

#51 Synkronos

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 11:54 AM

Skip all the maths. Just take the BiS setup, and run it again with Cat's Swiftness. Take the dps difference and work out how long you'd need to be running to make that difference up.

DeltaDps/CatDps * 60 for seconds per minute run time required.

I'd do it now, but I'm at work and don't have EnhSim downloaded (they frown on downloads, but don't mind forum browsing so much - go figure).

#52 Vespasian

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 02:06 PM

Updated

On Enhsim/Rawr

Levva wrote:
As the person who brought Rawr up to patch 3.0+ standards I'd be happy to work with you to improve Rawr to cater for what you believe to be missing. At present it uses the standard priority list as commonly used in EnhSim and defaulted to in my other contribution to the Enh Shaman community ShockAndAwe.


I will respond to this in the Rawr thread.

Levva wrote:
It would also be a good idea to maintain say a top 5 set of "BiS" models. So that whenever there was a new version of EnhSim out you could always re-check the top 5 to see if there were any changes as its entirely possible that the current BiS could be knocked off if a bug is found in the sim.


Yes I am doing this currently, but am awaiting a new build on Enhsim that addresses the GCD issues recently identified.

With regards to Yo!, I know who he is and have used his sim. My offer to explore other simulation tools as a basis for this thread was a sincere one. In conversing with him, the point I was trying to make is that Enhsim is a) generally considered to be largely accurate and B) updates are still occurring to further refine the accuracy of the tool. Given these two points, I do not think it would be inappropriate for us to rely upon Enhsim for an exercise such as this.

Latest BiS setup
Ksubi has provided the new BiS setup. I have tweaked his submission slightly by switching out a few gems.

Using the 1.8.0 version of Enhsim, I get roughly 7421 DPS. I am not ready to begin employing newer versions of Enhsim yet as there are some identified bugs that are being worked out, so for the sake of consistency I will stay with this 1.8.0 build until I receive confirmation that 1.8.X is ready to roll out. The newer version may results in a DPS increase due to a corrected clipping issue, or may results in a DPS loss as there is currently an issue with GCD recognition on certain abilities.

As for 1.7 OOM time with this build, mine reads at 1%, which is well and truly acceptable.

#53 ksubi

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 04:43 PM

Currently on the main page you have 172 expertise which is exactly 2 expertise gems over the cap which is maybe why u netted ~10dps lower than I did in my original post. Also note that using an AP/Stam gem to receive a socket bonus of 12ap is worse than using a straight 32ap gem and ignoring the socket bonus all together. I suggest using 2 expertise/stam gems and 1 enchanted tear to reach the required blue gems for the meta to work. I would also like to see someone try Dark Matter instead of Blood of the Old God and use Band of Lights instead of Loop of the Agile to partially make up for the hit loss and change a couple of gems to compensate. I'm not very good with Rawr and all that but perhaps someone else is and knows how to input the Dark Matter trinket and export it to EnhSim so that it sims correctly.

Great thread and hopefully we can keep it going into 3.2

Note: I use Exp/stam gems because before the expertise cap, expertise will sim to be more than double the AEP of attack power making it the better choice.

#54 Caladiera

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 04:54 PM

You may have more run time for XT Hard (wayward sparks) and for IC (running to and between the dwarves, this is less true on Steelbreaker, but definitely true for Brun when he is flying through the air.)

It's also nice for those "get back to the door first for DI pulls." :P

#55 Aeolian

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 06:43 PM

Currently on the main page you have 172 expertise which is exactly 2 expertise gems over the cap which is maybe why u netted ~10dps lower than I did in my original post. Also note that using an AP/Stam gem to receive a socket bonus of 12ap is worse than using a straight 32ap gem and ignoring the socket bonus all together. I suggest using 2 expertise/stam gems and 1 enchanted tear to reach the required blue gems for the meta to work. I would also like to see someone try Dark Matter instead of Blood of the Old God and use Band of Lights instead of Loop of the Agile to partially make up for the hit loss and change a couple of gems to compensate. I'm not very good with Rawr and all that but perhaps someone else is and knows how to input the Dark Matter trinket and export it to EnhSim so that it sims correctly.

Great thread and hopefully we can keep it going into 3.2

Note: I use Exp/stam gems because before the expertise cap, expertise will sim to be more than double the AEP of attack power making it the better choice.


The Rawr XML file has already been updated, he removed the expertise gems in the Off-Hand and the Gloves putting us exactly at the cap, he just hasn't made it around to the forum post yet.

Also, why would you recommend switching in (2) Expertise/Stam gems when you had just mentioned that we had too much Expertise already? It obviously makes more sense to leave the Balanced Twilight Opal in place, remove (2) Precise Scarlet Rubies like he did.

As far as the Trinket/Ring setup goes, I believe the first incarnation of this post had Dark Matter + Band of Lights in place of Blood of the Old God and Loop of the Agile and was lower then the current setup.

#56 Vespasian

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 01:00 AM

Currently on the main page you have 172 expertise which is exactly 2 expertise gems over the cap which is maybe why u netted ~10dps lower than I did in my original post. Also note that using an AP/Stam gem to receive a socket bonus of 12ap is worse than using a straight 32ap gem and ignoring the socket bonus all together. I suggest using 2 expertise/stam gems and 1 enchanted tear to reach the required blue gems for the meta to work. I would also like to see someone try Dark Matter instead of Blood of the Old God and use Band of Lights instead of Loop of the Agile to partially make up for the hit loss and change a couple of gems to compensate. I'm not very good with Rawr and all that but perhaps someone else is and knows how to input the Dark Matter trinket and export it to EnhSim so that it sims correctly.

Great thread and hopefully we can keep it going into 3.2

Note: I use Exp/stam gems because before the expertise cap, expertise will sim to be more than double the AEP of attack power making it the better choice.


Thanks for pointing this out. I had updated the Rawr/Config but had forgotten to update the table as well. I have done so now. The reason I am netting less DPS than you is because we are using different versions of Enhsim. Furthermore, only 2 blue gems are required for the meta, so the changes I made resulted in a DPS increase (I changed 1 exp/stam gem for straight expertise and the other for Ap/Stam)

#57 Levva

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 11:01 AM

Using the 1.8.0 version of Enhsim, I get roughly 7421 DPS. I am not ready to begin employing newer versions of Enhsim yet as there are some identified bugs that are being worked out, so for the sake of consistency I will stay with this 1.8.0 build until I receive confirmation that 1.8.X is ready to roll out. The newer version may results in a DPS increase due to a corrected clipping issue, or may results in a DPS loss as there is currently an issue with GCD recognition on certain abilities.


Yes but it was v1.8.0 that has the clipping issue added in that was removed in v1.8.1+ So v1.8.0 is the buggy one that shouldn't be used not the earlier or later ones.
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Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.

#58 Sylvand

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 01:40 PM

I don't think any of the releases had the issue that would cause the swing timer to be improperly reset; it was added and removed before any release.

The clip/delay discrepancy should be the same from 1.7.0.3 (and earlier I guess) through 1.8.0, and the bug in 1.8.1 should only happen if you sim with LVB or MW0. These really aren't things I would expect to affect sim output too much; the only relevant thing for simming 3.1 gear is that Comet's Trail was incorrect until 1.8.2 (and maybe the fix for the CL cast time).

If it's something important for this project it shouldn't be too much trouble to e.g. create a 1.8.0.1 release which just has the correction for Comet's Trail. It's also possible to have e.g. just the trinkets added to create a 1.7.0.4 release too. But overall I think the remaining issues are mostly due to lack of information about items both with the rarer trinkets (though it's likely they're correct) and the stuff in 3.2.

#59 philviral

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 07:27 PM

Delete please. Made an oversight.

#60 Vespasian

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 02:05 AM

Updated

Began employing Enhsim 1.8.2.




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