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Frost Mage Spreadsheet


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#21 Z-Factor

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 10:39 AM

0.1*0.1 = 0.01, so 1% chance they both activate at the same time. But a 20% chance on every spell that it is either free or instant cast (presuming you're using Frostbolt, Fireball, or Arcane Missiles).

The new tier 1 frost talent is going to appear in nearly every mage build though, an innate 6% chance to hit with frost and fire spells.

#22 Hamlet

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 03:56 PM

Ah crap, I just realized that Clearcasting can only proc when you hit. This throws a wrench in the whole works.

EDIT: I don't even want to think about partially-resistable Fire spells yet.

#23 Hamlet

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 06:25 PM

Ugh, and Ignite (and Combustion + Ignite) are going to be messy. Will probably have to take the simulational approach. As soon as I've been away for long enough to stand the sight of MATLAB again, I'll give it a go.

#24 Hamlet

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 06:59 AM

Ok, got my 8/8 today. Will continue to work on this as soon as I have time--it now has more interest for me, as I'd to find out what it predicts as to how the set bonus will compare to +127 more spell damage from non-set gear. And, as always, whether to go Frost or Fire after the patch.

For reference, any intuition from current Mages on wich would push more DPS: the gear in my profile, or the same suit with full NW swapped into the appropriate slots?

#25 Lagomorph

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 08:43 AM

Ok, got my 8/8 today. Will continue to work on this as soon as I have time--it now has more interest for me, as I'd to find out what it predicts as to how the set bonus will compare to +127 more spell damage from non-set gear. And, as always, whether to go Frost or Fire after the patch.

For reference, any intuition from current Mages on wich would push more DPS: the gear in my profile, or the same suit with full NW swapped into the appropriate slots?

None of the mages in our raid is particularly enamored of the bonus - mostly because of things like hit and crit that they lose out on.

The rough theorycraft I came up with (spamming all r11 frostbolts) came out to about a 4% dps increase. If you swap in fireballs on procs instead that should go up a bit more. Being generous to the set maybee a 6% increase. Remembering rough equivalency from your spreadsheet 3 +dmg ended up as about 1DPS, soooo you're looking at roughly 400 DPS*.06 vs 127*.33 which works out too - 24 DPS vs 41 DPS.

Even if the clearcast procs turned into a raw 10% DPS increase, you're pretty much at the level of +dmg (assuming you have the 648 that comes base in your spreadsheet) that makes netherwind less valuable than straight up non-set gear. (especially if you factor in lost hit and crit).


Hopefully that's useful as a baseline for you to work from.

#26 Hamlet

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 10:11 AM

Ah crap, I just realized that Clearcasting can only proc when you hit. This throws a wrench in the whole works.

EDIT: I don't even want to think about partially-resistable Fire spells yet.

Ok, I'll probably try to make this change first. Questions:

How does Clearcasting work with Arcane Missiles? I'm trying my best to visualize what happens while I'm playing. I keep thinking the chime appears right when AM starts channeling. Does this sound right to people? If so, does it happen on 10% of all casts? Does it only happen when the first Missile is not resisted? Would anyone even have any useful data about specifically when the first Missile is resisted?

As far as Fire spells, can Clearcasts happen if and only if a spell isn't fully resisted (i.e. it's 10% likely, even on a partial resist of any amount)? Does anyone even know the specific probabilities of partial resists?

#27 Maledict

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 02:14 PM

Just to note, Arcane Missiles on test is getting more damage from + damage gear than previously. It now appears to be getting 121% of your damage gear bonus, spread out across all 5 missiles obviously.

Also, the co-efficient for AE's has changed, and instead of being 33% of the + damage gear, it's now 39%.

Can't get onto the euro test realms to do harder testing I'm afraid atm.

#28 Maledict

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 02:35 PM

Just used this spreadsheet, and discovered that as I'm a Horde mage, with my current gear, I can sustain my maximum dmage output for 95 seconds. Were I an Alliance mage, I could last for 135 seconds.

Can't they just remove Judgement of Wisdom from the game or something, it seems so abusive in comparison to even stuff like Salvation and Kings?

Anywho, very nice sheet. Just slightly depressing... :)

#29 dfinberg

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 04:03 PM

125 seconds casting is 50 frostbolts (I'll ignore NW), for 25 wisdom procs, at 59 mana each. 1500 mana. Rank 11 bolt is 290 mana, minus efficiency talents. Something seems wrong there Maledict. Did you mean BoW instead of JoW?

Aynways, don't want this to derail into a pally/shaman thread; we all know Alliance get a tremendous benefit from Pally buffage. If Naxx has a few encounters that really show off the shaman advantages (burst damage; spike healing; rare totem situations) we can hope the whining on both sides stop, but it will probably just increase.

Edit: Double halved JoW in the numbers. Still, that looks like a 12sec gain, not 30.
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#30 Maledict

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 04:46 PM

Yeah, was counting BoW nd JoW together, plus presumably the extra spirit from BoK is included.

Bah, I'm the RL, I'll just start giving myself shaman instead of the rogues. They don't need them!

Am curious about a fire version, as I'm still mulling over speccing to fire, or at least an elementalist, for 1.11.

#31 Shalas

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 05:35 PM

With 50 mana/5 seconds (170 spirit with Mage Armor and Arcane Meditation), 290 mana/bolt, 2.5 second cast, ignoring all other factors:

Sans BoW/Jow: 530 mana lost per 5 seconds.
With BoW/JoW: 431 mana lost per 5 seconds.

If you can normally sustain frostbolt for 95 seconds as horde, assuming you had no consumables left (although the extra time would let more timers come up), you'd be able to continue chaincasting Frostbolt for an extra 17 seconds.

#32 ex-Hagakure

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 08:25 PM

Just to throw this out there, I logged onto PTR with one of the pre-made mages and noticed with 540(ish) plus damage gear I was hitting a lot harder with frostbolt than my normal character dose (568+ damage). With random disconnects and the lag it was hard to get a good approximation on how much harder but the pre-made character was ranging from 1030 to 1100 (give or take, rounding those numbers down because I didn’t actually log anything).

My best guess as to why this is happing is because they either changed how the piercing ice talent works with plus damage gear or they just simply reworked how all the spells will scale given the reported change to AM posted above.

#33 Drauk

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 08:31 PM

they either changed how the piercing ice talent works with plus damage gear

Ehm, piercing ice works after +damage items, what could possible changed in this regard ?

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#34 ex-Hagakure

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 09:28 PM

Ehm, piercing ice works after +damage items, what could possible changed in this regard ?

or they just simply reworked how all the spells will scale given the reported change to AM posted above.

I don't know what else to say, something changed from live to PTR that is making less plus damage do more actually damage. Like I said, with lag and the servers dieing I didn't get a ton of time to test it all.

#35 Jaerel

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 11:13 PM

Was the pre-made mage a troll? and were you shooting boars (or any sort of beast?)? I've been playing my troll mage for ~a year and I only realized about 3 weeks ago that beast-slaying works with spells...borderline revolutionary change for me.

#36 Shulman

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 11:18 PM

Just to throw this out there, I logged onto PTR with one of the pre-made mages and noticed with 540(ish) plus damage gear I was hitting a lot harder with frostbolt than my normal character dose (568+ damage). With random disconnects and the lag it was hard to get a good approximation on how much harder but the pre-made character was ranging from 1030 to 1100 (give or take, rounding those numbers down because I didn’t actually log anything).

My best guess as to why this is happing is because they either changed how the piercing ice talent works with plus damage gear or they just simply reworked how all the spells will scale given the reported change to AM posted above.

that is pretty normal for a rank 11 frostbolt tbh.

#37 mylek

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 02:57 AM

How does Clearcasting work with Arcane Missiles? I'm trying my best to visualize what happens while I'm playing. I keep thinking the chime appears right when AM starts channeling. Does this sound right to people? If so, does it happen on 10% of all casts? Does it only happen when the first Missile is not resisted? Would anyone even have any useful data about specifically when the first Missile is resisted?

Clearcast and Netherwind Focus do proc the moment you begin channeling arcane missiles even before the first missile hits the target. For instance it is possible to start channeling rank1 AM and then immediately interrupt it before firing a single missile to get a shot at a NwF/Clearcast proc. Similarily Clearcast has a chance to proc immediately when you begin to channel Blizzard even if the spell does not hit a single target during its duration.

Though I lack any data I believe that the check whether the first volly full resists or not will have no impact on the proc chance for NwF/Clearcast given that the proc occurrs so early in the casting of the spell.

#38 Puffd

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 11:43 PM

Hey there.
I myself is not really the math genious out there, but I've been a reader of the forums for quite some time now, and found alot of useful information form the regular posters.

Now, this might seem like a dumb question, but I'm only trying to understand :)

From your other thread "Some mage theory", you posted this little bit:

With Missles, but using R4 Frostbolt (2.1s cast, for a 25.4s "block"):

Damage:
9*(78+648*(2.6/3.5*.95))*1.19*(.83+.07+.112) + (230*5+554)*1.13*(.83+.07+.112/2) = 6,777

Mana usage: 9 * 56 = 504

Mana returns:
Spirit: (224/4+12.5)*0.3*25.4/2 = 261.0
MP5: 61.6*25.4/5 = 312.9
The other two terms are the same.
Total: 1082.8

DPS: 266.8
MPS: +22.8
Now, I assume the usage of the Rank4 frostbolt actually regenerating mana for you is dependent on some things. Of course to achieve the 2.1s cast time you would have to be speccing Imp. Frostbolt, and Frost Channeling to get the 56 mana bolts. With those 2 things taken into consideration, gear must also play a part in this.
I currently walk around with a gear setup which gives me 185 spirit, 17/Mp5 and +443 Frost dmg.

The thing is, I recently respecced from frost to a 15/33/3 build, so I don't have either of those talents to deal with.

My question is, can this "trick" be done somehow with my current build / gear setup, or does it rely too much on the lowered casting time and 15% less mana cost to ever be efficient enough compared to just wanding? I'm thinking about keeping up a "steady" dps whilst regaining mana on certain fights, even though my mana isn't getting burned that fast since I'm spending quite some time doing my best to keep ignites rolling.




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