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Mage Spreadsheet, updated


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#21 Hamlet

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 07:34 PM

Ok, added in a Sc7/FrB12 pattern. It does seem a better initial cycle (before you hit 0 mana) than Sc7/AM8.

In general, I need to find a better way to pick out the optimal cycle automatically. Right now I'm just listing what I think are all the reasonable options (both for zero-mana and for starting) and taking the maximum, and there are probably cases where I've missed one. For example, my thinking is very JoW-centric. Will look into that.

#22 Hamoshin

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 07:34 PM

Nah, it's pretty true that JoW doesn't come into play all that often as Requitas argued. How many bosses do you go all out dps on the entire time, only stopping to evocate or regen mana?

On Skeram I don't even need to Evocate, really. Renewing JoW on him and all of his adds after every split is largely a waste of effort and makes little-to-no difference in my dps. Sartura and the Bug Trio are two fights where it definitely helps, and Fankriss as well. On Huhuran I don't see how it would be possible to go all out until 30% without pulling aggro from the tanks, so mana isn't the limiting factor. If your guild is anything like mine, mages are on bug duty during the Twemps, and mana isn't much of a problem there either.

No one is disputing that the Paladin buffs give alliance mages an edge when it comes to mana-efficiency and thus dps, but the figures that Maledict posted are without a doubt exaggerated with regards to the vast majority of boss fights out there.
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#23 Hamlet

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 07:41 PM

Nah, it's pretty true that JoW doesn't come into play all that often as Requitas argued. How many boss fights do you go all out dps on the entire time, only stopping to evocate or regen mana?

EDIT: Never mind, I get it.

#24 flyinfungi

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 07:49 PM

Very Intresting data collected from this.

Not very good with excel so I hope these questions/suggestions aren't redundant.

Some things I would like to see if possible.

A graph of damage over time with multiple builds on them. Would be cool to see the crossover point is for fire, ice and arcane.

An option to allow trinkets such as ToEP, ZHC, Mind Quicking Gem, etc.

Add AP as an option and POM. Would be really nice to know for short short turn dps although i dont think you're aiming for that in the spreadsheet.

Some Questions

What is "Short" on your DPS scale there?

Did you take into consideration stacking Ignites and fireball dots (lol)

Is there a way for me to take scorch as my main spell for the entire fight? Im thinking you took fireball for dmg calculations whenever you had the scorch debuff up.



You asked how firemages played.

Goes like this.

Wait for enough Aggro
Fireball Spam or scorch spam depending on spec
Use Timers
Fireball Spam or scorch spam depending on spec

Or for the Super nonefficent pew pew pew fire mage and of course throw timers as always in there.
Fireball
fireblast
fireball
fireball
fireblast
fireball
fireball
fireblast

or change it with scorch with

fireblast
scorch
scorch
scorch
scorch
fireblast
scorch
scorch
scorch
scorch
fireblast
scorch
scorch
scorch
scorch

#25 Soul

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 08:10 PM

I think that Fire mages will play a little differently after the patch. Main thing being that Imp. Scorch is now cheaper to get a 100% proc, so assuming Imp. Scorch gets its priority fixed, you could conceivably cast as follows (given 3/8 NW):

1. After the tank gets one or two hits in, spam Rank 1 Scorch to get 5/5 Imp. Scorch debuffs or until sufficient aggro is established, whichever takes longer.

2. Cast 9 Fireballs.
3. Cast Scorch
4. Repeat from 2.

Of course, the way priority is now, Imp. Scorch ranks with Deep Wounds and Fireball in terms of priority, so without a full-time Scorch spammer, it doesn't stay up. Grrr.

Depending on your gear/spec you might want to change things up for efficiency's sake or maximizing trinkets. This goes especially for Ignite chaining and using Combustion/Fireblast. Usually you'll use Scorches and Fireblast to try and prolong those uber Ignite strings since Scorch, Scorch, Fireblast is 3 spells in 3 seconds... decent odds of adding at least one more Ignite to the stack, which buys you 4 more seconds of burning.

#26 Hamlet

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 08:19 PM

How does Ignite work in 1.11?

#27 Thrillho

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 08:25 PM

How does Ignite work in 1.11?

Based on empirical tests, exactly the same as it does in 1.10. It rolls, and it rolls to high numbers if you get lucky enough. In Naxx when I hit Combustion I've had Ignites ticking in the 1600 range on several occasions. Some people have said it doesn't roll on Test, but I've tested it many times, and I can pretty much guarantee you that it does. It's possible that there's a bug where Ignites aren't rolling all the time (ie: in a similar way, Ignite/Imp Scorch can actually be resisted, even if you crit/deal damage -- so dumb) but I personally haven't seen it.

Unless you were asking 'how does Ignite work in general' in which case I can clarify that too.

#28 Bloodshot

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 08:31 PM

Whatever Brilliance. The point is that it's not up 100% of the time like a spreadsheet would have you believe.

Thanks for taking the time to refute my post point by point and actually miss the overall theme of it. Can't get anything by you.

It's not 100% like a spreadsheet, but good guilds manage to keep it up for a pretty long time. It speeds up things on trash, it matters on most bosses, and in some of them like C'thun? It amounts to nothing less than cheatery.

#29 Ultramax

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 08:40 PM

Twins -> We have light and wisdom up on each. It takes 3-4 seconds, and it helps out alot.

Clearly one of them needs to be immune to your paladin chicanery.

#30 Maledict

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 08:55 PM

No one is disputing that the Paladin buffs give alliance mages an edge when it comes to mana-efficiency and thus dps, but the figures that Maledict posted are without a doubt exaggerated with regards to the vast majority of boss fights out there.

I would argue you accusing me of exageration.

In every fight most guilds in the game work on (MC & BWL), those abilities without a doubt play a big part. That's the majority of fights for most players in the game. So saying it doesn't work on the majority of fights is a fallacy.

Now sure, in AQ, there are fewer boss fights where it can be used. But it still can be used on many fights - and when it does, *bang* there's stupid discrepancy between the factions. You can't argue something isn't broken just because on a few fights you can;t do it - you still can on the majority of AQ40 fights, and where you can, it makes a vastly noticeable difference.

Yes, it's not going to be up all the time. And yes, on some fights, it's of no use. Or can't be applied - but given there is *absolutely* no equivalent, in any way, for casters on the Horde side, how can you even begin to argue that this is balanced?

HEck, it seems that JoW & BoW are the difference between a fire spec being viable and not being viable for raiding, and dealing damage where it counts (boss fights). That's a *big* difference.

---> Although hopefully, the inclusion of mana potions into the equasion might make things a bit clearer. Although I don't want to be buying mana potions forever... :)

#31 Thrillho

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 09:04 PM

Actually, re: Ignites, a possible explanation for it.

I haven't personally tested this, but this seems like a plausible explanation for all the people saying "Ignite doesn't roll" while simulatenously my own experience on test showing that it was rolling. I didn't really look closely to see if it was ticking twice after a roll, or what.

If you crit a spell and put ignite on a target. then between the first tick (2sec after spell) and second tick(4 sec after spell) you get a second crit, then both ignites (the first and the second) will stop after the next tick (rather than getting 1 double ignite, followed by 1 single as expected)



#32 Drauk

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 09:11 PM

Has anybody tested how does evocation works under 5s rule in 1.11 ?

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#33 Hamlet

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 09:25 PM

Actually, re: Ignites, a possible explanation for it.

I haven't personally tested this, but this seems like a plausible explanation for all the people saying "Ignite doesn't roll" while simulatenously my own experience on test showing that it was rolling. I didn't really look closely to see if it was ticking twice after a roll, or what.

If you crit a spell and put ignite on a target. then between the first tick (2sec after spell) and second tick(4 sec after spell) you get a second crit, then both ignites (the first and the second) will stop after the next tick (rather than getting 1 double ignite, followed by 1 single as expected)

So now it's actually worse than it would be if they were all indepedent?

#34 Jaerel

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 09:52 PM

Actually, re: Ignites, a possible explanation for it.

I haven't personally tested this, but this seems like a plausible explanation for all the people saying "Ignite doesn't roll" while simulatenously my own experience on test showing that it was rolling. I didn't really look closely to see if it was ticking twice after a roll, or what.

If you crit a spell and put ignite on a target. then between the first tick (2sec after spell) and second tick(4 sec after spell) you get a second crit, then both ignites (the first and the second) will stop after the next tick (rather than getting 1 double ignite, followed by 1 single as expected)

So now it's actually worse than it would be if they were all indepedent?

Clearly someone just needs to take a paladin with them down to blasted lands, and low rank fireball/scorch a servant for a few hours a night for the next week or so parsing the data, and come back with an empirical curve fit for a couple different levels of crit :).

If ignite is working worse than what you'd expect independantly, I think I'll cry though :/.

#35 Phanuel

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 10:24 PM

Actually, re: Ignites, a possible explanation for it.

I haven't personally tested this, but this seems like a plausible explanation for all the people saying "Ignite doesn't roll" while simulatenously my own experience on test showing that it was rolling. I didn't really look closely to see if it was ticking twice after a roll, or what.

If you crit a spell and put ignite on a target. then between the first tick (2sec after spell) and second tick(4 sec after spell) you get a second crit, then both ignites (the first and the second) will stop after the next tick (rather than getting 1 double ignite, followed by 1 single as expected)

So now it's actually worse than it would be if they were all indepedent?

From what I've experienced dicking around in PvP with combustion, yes. My opening fireball will crit for say 2000 and then my successive fireblast for 1000 and I'll see a pair of 600 ticks. But if I twin crit on scorches for 750 or so each I'll see 150, 300, nothing. But perhaps I wasn't paying close enough attention and it might have ticked for 150 afterwards. What I do know is you can no longer roll them in the old sense of additional crits refreshing the current stack and building it up to ridiculous levels.

#36 Requitas

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 11:02 PM

Whatever Brilliance. The point is that it's not up 100% of the time like a spreadsheet would have you believe.

Thanks for taking the time to refute my post point by point and actually miss the overall theme of it. Can't get anything by you.

It's not 100% like a spreadsheet, but good guilds manage to keep it up for a pretty long time. It speeds up things on trash, it matters on most bosses, and in some of them like C'thun? It amounts to nothing less than cheatery.

Shhhh!!! :P

#37 Requitas

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 11:07 PM

No one is disputing that the Paladin buffs give alliance mages an edge when it comes to mana-efficiency and thus dps, but the figures that Maledict posted are without a doubt exaggerated with regards to the vast majority of boss fights out there.

I would argue you accusing me of exageration.

In every fight most guilds in the game work on (MC & BWL), those abilities without a doubt play a big part. That's the majority of fights for most players in the game. So saying it doesn't work on the majority of fights is a fallacy.

Now sure, in AQ, there are fewer boss fights where it can be used. But it still can be used on many fights - and when it does, *bang* there's stupid discrepancy between the factions. You can't argue something isn't broken just because on a few fights you can;t do it - you still can on the majority of AQ40 fights, and where you can, it makes a vastly noticeable difference.

Yes, it's not going to be up all the time. And yes, on some fights, it's of no use. Or can't be applied - but given there is *absolutely* no equivalent, in any way, for casters on the Horde side, how can you even begin to argue that this is balanced?

HEck, it seems that JoW & BoW are the difference between a fire spec being viable and not being viable for raiding, and dealing damage where it counts (boss fights). That's a *big* difference.

---> Although hopefully, the inclusion of mana potions into the equasion might make things a bit clearer. Although I don't want to be buying mana potions forever... :)

And yet Horde are still somehow able to progress. Seriously, I think you're putting way too much stock in what Paladins bring to a raid compared to Shamans.

Honestly, the only time your faction choice has ever mattered in progression was 100% deaggro Broodlord and untauntable drakes. Beyond that, Alliance perhaps has a more convenient raiding experience. But it's not like there's an encounter in the game that you just plain can't beat because you don't have Paladins.

#38 Hamlet

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 12:03 AM

So torn.

So Frost Magery is pretty straightforward. You have one main casting mode, and it does nice damage, and has the efficiency to last through just about everything.

Fire is a bit more complex. Fireball chaincasting pushes significantly more damage than Frost ever will, but burns through mana far more quickly. But that much we already knew. The question is whether good use of other spells (Scorch, Fireball 5, and Missiles) makes it really practical. The key is that a Scorch-heavy mode of casting can seemingly equal or top Frost for DPS, and at less mana usage.

Above the DPS, Frost has one thing going for it (Ice Block). Ice Block is huge, and the minor apparent improvement from Frostbolt to Scorch probably doesn't make me go over. But Fire also has the ability to burn through mana for DPS that completely trumps that of Frost, and its real value depends on how often you get to take advantage of this--there are many times when you have ample mana.

Other complicating issues:
--Range. Frost gets to DPS at 36 yards, only needing to move in to 30 when you need to work in Missiles. Fire can only hold at 41 for pure Fireball spam. Most Fire usage will involve Scorch in some way, keeping you at 30. And when you want to really burn for DPS, you'll want to move into Fireblast range (20).
--Timers. Combustion + Trinket + Fire burst is a lot better than Trinket + Frostbolt spam

#39 Phanuel

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 12:09 AM

Slight edit, Scorch is 36 yards with the talents that make Fireball 41 yards and Fireblast becomes 26 yards.

#40 Soul

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 12:11 AM

Scorch range is 36 yards with Flame Throwing. Fire blast has a range of 26 with Flame Throwing.




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