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Mage Spreadsheet, updated


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#41 flyinfungi

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 12:22 AM

I just reread my post. And then yours then mine then I punched myself in the face.

#42 Hamlet

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 12:22 AM

Right, I totally forgot about that.

#43 Maledict

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 07:56 AM

And yet Horde are still somehow able to progress. Seriously, I think you're putting way too much stock in what Paladins bring to a raid compared to Shamans.

Honestly, the only time your faction choice has ever mattered in progression was 100% deaggro Broodlord and untauntable drakes. Beyond that, Alliance perhaps has a more convenient raiding experience. But it's not like there's an encounter in the game that you just plain can't beat because you don't have Paladins.

I don't want to side track a great thread - but no-one has ever claimed that things are impossible for the Horde, or that Paladins make fights "instant win". They don't.

They do make a lot of fights significantly easier though, in many, many ways - from mana regen, to low aggro healing, to cleanse, to Blessing of Salvation, to Blessing of Kings. Windfury isn't exactly a good counter to all of that, especially with how the raiding game works.

Does it not seem silly to you that, undeniably, one side does find the vast majority of fights in the game easier because they are alliance and not horde? Doesn't that strike you as odd, that effectively if you raid the game had a hidden "Hard Mode" button? I hope you can understand how, after a while, it begins to grate for the Horde - especially when the hard maths, even if not applicable all the time, just looks plain *ugly*... :)

---

Anywho, back to the spreadsheet, and sorry for keeping derailing - I was going to ask for an 8 piece NW comparison, but then realised that it only makes a difference over the 60 second period really, as any time longer than that and it just speeds up the cyrcles that are already in place - it has no effect once you are OOM, for example, unless the fight lasts a very set certain amount of time.

Re. Fireball versus frostbolt - I dunno. I reset our damage meters for almost any boss fight, so being able to burn away on trash isn't that astounding. The only fight I can think of where the extra burn potential of fire is going to be useful is on Huruhan, Moam and the garoyles in Naxxramus so far. Compared with Iceblock & Improved Blizzard, that's a hard pair to beat - as well as Ice Barrier, which after the patch is actually a really good spell IMHO. Making it stack with PW:Shield is just nice. I definitely think I'm tending towards frost for raiding atm, unless mana potions have a *big* effect on fires dps output. And I can be botehred enough to farm them...

#44 Hamlet

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 08:26 AM

Everyone keeps bringing up mana potions. Why is there this assumption that mana potions will largely pull Fire ahead of Frost? Since Frost's main nukes are more efficient that then mana-hungry Fireballs, the marginal benefit of a static mana increase is often equal or greater for Frost.

Obviously, this only holds true in fights where the Frost Mage has a chance of running out anyway. In a lot of fights, the Frost Mage isn't going to run out, so he no marginal benefit from potions, while the Fire Mage gets to keep his high-mana cycle for a longer. But it's worth noting that outside of this finite zone (i.e. as soon as the Frost Mage's mana is strained), potions aren't especially beneficial to Fire.

#45 Maledict

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 08:29 AM

I think it's because a lot of fights are in that particular zone, tbh. Most boss fights don't last 10 minutes - obviously once you hit that point, then fire is going to come up lacking no matter what. But for fights shorter than that, where frost isn't completely out of mana, then I think they will make a difference.

BAsically, I think adding mana potions in would push Fires DPS advantage over frost in the 3 minute and 6 minute category, especially for Horde players - and I reckon that might make it viable enough to consider as a Horde mage. ATM, with those numbers, I just can't logically see a good reason for going fire.

#46 Hamlet

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 08:40 AM

Hmm, I just realized I have to do some of the final computation of total damage for a fight in a more advanced way, or this really isn't going to be valid.

All the stuff about DPS/MPS numbers for particular cycles is great, but combining cycles to optimize damage while using M mana in time T is trickier than I'd thought.

#47 oldirtybasti

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 08:50 AM

And yet Horde are still somehow able to progress. Seriously, I think you're putting way too much stock in what Paladins bring to a raid compared to Shamans.

Honestly, the only time your faction choice has ever mattered in progression was 100% deaggro Broodlord and untauntable drakes. Beyond that, Alliance perhaps has a more convenient raiding experience. But it's not like there's an encounter in the game that you just plain can't beat because you don't have Paladins.

i also dont think that there is a remarkable imbalance between the factions. But there are some minor annoyances between mage/paladin in raids (alliance) and rogue/shaman pairs for horde.

#48 Drauk

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 10:54 AM

Arawethion, i noticed that spreadsheet doesn't have a field for Arcane Concenctration (CC) talent. Do you ignore it effect, or its assumed every mage has it ?

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#49 Maledict

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 11:04 AM

It's assumed every mage has it... :)

#50 Gannon

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 10:57 PM

Does this spreadsheet still work with 1.12? As far as I can see it should, but I wanted to check with anybody who knew for sure. Thanks.
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#51 Kasi

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 01:42 AM

Ara, I have a couple questions here for a guildie about some mage stuff. Tried looking at spreadsheet, but got confused by it.

1) Can each tick of Arcane missiles proc clear casting? A guildie is thinking that might make AM worth it as the primary nuke..

2) How does chain casting AM (with an arcane build) do in comparison in DPM and DPS to frostbolt or fireball/scorch?

Thanks for anyone who can point me to this. Trying to find the info using search but its hard. I used to play a mage and instinct tells me that using AM all the time is just wrong, but I would like some math.

#52 Thrillho

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 01:48 AM

1) Can each tick of Arcane missiles proc clear casting? A guildie is thinking that might make AM worth it as the primary nuke..

Only the first tick of AM can proc Clearcasting or Netherwind Focus.

#53 Hamlet

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 01:49 AM

Does this spreadsheet still work with 1.12? As far as I can see it should, but I wanted to check with anybody who knew for sure. Thanks.

I've had it in the back of my mind for a while. It should be pretty simple to update, for anyone who wants to have a go at it.

Also, there's someone with potentially more advanced work who posted in this thread:
http://forums.elitis...pic.php?id=7742




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