Jump to content


Photo

Guild Progression - Questions, Concerns...


  • Please log in to reply
84 replies to this topic

#1 Ashuko

Ashuko

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 175 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:08 PM

Background: I'm an officer in an alliance guild that has MC/Onyxia on farm status. We've had 12 Ragnaros take-downs and 4 Razorgore take-downs. At this point we can take down Razorgore every single week. Vael has been attempted 3 weeks in a row now, with 7% being the best attempt. We employ a DKP system - points are handed out based on bosskills and on-time/end. Bidding is, generally stated, "if you can use it, you can bid on it". For an example of our general DPS level, without flasks we can consistently get Rags below 30% before the sons spawn...typical is 23-28%.

So that's where we are. Hopefully that gives you the right perspective in order to answer the questions I'm about to ask. Please keep in mind that I'm focused on getting answers that will help me .A. limit drama and .B. be the best choice for increasing our guild's overall chances of progression.

1. What's the low-down on Brutality Blade/Perdition's Blade/CHT/Vis'khag...and hunters/rogues? Should rogues get first priority? Or ultimately "who cares"...let the hunters stack up on whatever they like, while new rogues in the guild "wait in line"?

2. More generally - how important is it to limit certain drops to "first dibs" based on class? For example, priests can't bid on SoD unless every last mage/warlock/druid that wants it has it...Dark Iron Ring to warriors before feral druids...etc?

3. Vael fight: for a guild at the point we're at - how important is it to put Blessing of Salvation on tanks to make the transitions more smooth? I'm assuming if you know what I'm talking about I don't have to explain how that works...I'd just like to know if it really is a good strat or not. I've heard a lot of good things about it but am having trouble generating traction for it.

4. Druids in BWL - again, at our point of progression - let 'em choose their spec or ask for restoration for now?

5. Now that we're at the point where we have more cores than we know what to do with...is it time to start offering a limited number of them out to guildies? For DKP? For random rolls? How is this normally handled?

6. Healing on Vael - we're going with 5 druids on current tank target, 2 priests in tank groups PoHing, pallies spot healing...and for DPS groups priests/pallies. Good/bad?

7. How important is it to swap dead folks out of groups during the Vael fight so that priest group healing remains effective?

Ok I think that's all for now...any constructive help will be much appreciated.

#2 Hanny

Hanny

    Von Kaiser

  • Allied Members
  • 95 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:16 PM

If you can get rag below 30% before sons you should be able to kill vael :(. Maybe it is a healing issue, but from what you described it sounds ok. I know we do have someone switch people around for healing when certain people die.

#3 kharen

kharen

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 371 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:25 PM

1. What's the low-down on Brutality Blade/Perdition's Blade/CHT/Vis'khag...and hunters/rogues? Should rogues get first priority? Or ultimately "who cares"...let the hunters stack up on whatever they like, while new rogues in the guild "wait in line"?

2. More generally - how important is it to limit certain drops to "first dibs" based on class? For example, priests can't bid on SoD unless every last mage/warlock/druid that wants it has it...Dark Iron Ring to warriors before feral druids...etc?

Firstly, any hunter wanting to loot a Perds or Vis'kag should be gkicked for being a collosal moron.

More generally, either solution has potential for massive drama. If you implement priority, people will bitch up a storm about the loot that's prioritised to other classes. If you don't, people will bitch up a storm about loot being "wasted" on classes that will never use the item in question in a raid instance (or will just make less use of it than they think they would).

#4 Ashuko

Ashuko

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 175 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:26 PM

Cleave is an issue...to be honest I'd be more than happy with just a pally in each tank group healing the tanks...but it doesn't seem to be enough and the druids have their hands full keeping the current tank target up. I think a big problem these days is that we're attempting Vael with 3-4 priests, 5 pallies and 5 druids.

Learning the fight with low healing is tough. Ideally groups 3-8 would be DPS and we'd have a priest PoHing in each. Put 4-5 druids on current tank target, 1 pally in each tank group (groups 1-2) and the rest of the pallies spot healing DPS groups.

#5 Brissa

Brissa

    Not enough rage

  • Members
  • 473 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:29 PM

1. Hunters wanting vis'kag or perd have a problem and you might want to seriously consider their position in the raid if they take it over a rogue wanting it.

Personally im all for restricting loot however I am in a guild where loot is handled pretty much as you describe.

3. The importance of blessing of salvation depends on how far apart your tanks are in threat generation.
You always want to start out with your worst tank as he doesnt have to fight for aggro if he starts and then probably go with your best, second best etc threat generator.

Now say your second and third tank are very close to each other in threat generation its a good move to put salvation on the third tank (that he removes a bit into the battle) in order to solidify the tank transition.

6. One priest should be able to cover one group and you dont need 2 priests in any single group.
Try and cover as many dps/tankgroups with your priests as possible as dps casters are fairly useless on vael.

7. It helps but isnt necessary but as you havent beaten him yet i see no reason not to do it.

*edit*
Cleave should never be a problem. If your getting cleaves on the melee then they are either standing to close to vaels head or the tank is standing to close to vael.
Make sure the tank always stands a good distance from the boss as you can hit him from quite far away and doing so will remove all cleaving.

#6 Ashuko

Ashuko

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 175 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:30 PM

Zeln - good comments, thanks!

Yes, we've distributed cores to build up FR gear. Casters in the guild are up to 100+ FR. Melee 150+. Tanks 250+ with the top 3 at the magical 315 (that IS the max right??)...

For Vael we've told the guild "max FR" while we learn. I believe for rogues that means they are working with 150+...ish.

#7 Breaksmith

Breaksmith

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 59 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:30 PM

We have priority, although they tend to be more of a suggestion than anything. Certainly we'd have no truck with a Hunter wanting a Perdition's Blade or Bonereavers while there are still Melee Classes wanting.

Basically it's just a bit of common sense. If you let anyone take anything, the raid will suffer. If your members are too dumb or selfish to see drops go to the appropriate classes then yes, put some rules in. If they are a sensible lot and you won't have priests taking +dmg items and Warriors taking Death's Sting then don't worry about it.

Drama avoidance and efficient gearing up are the important things, so be relaxed unless people are being really stupid. Then kick ass.

#8 Ashuko

Ashuko

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 175 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:32 PM

Ok, I get the point with Perditions and Vis'kag. How about CHT? That seems to be the hot button, especially as we have newer rogues entering the guild and needing to get geared up and they end up bumping up against hunters with tons of DKP looking for an upgrade.

#9 Mem

Mem

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 599 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:33 PM

Concerning loot priority: it really depends on how reasonable foks in your raid are. As kharen said, hunters looting perdi or vis won't push the raid forward, rather the contrary if they drop their boneslicing hatchet or whatever for this one. Talk to your raid about this topic without excerting any pressure, it might just work. If you have just a bunch of loothog though, you might not get around introducing said loot priority. However my experience is that priority systems don't solve the problems on the long run because the problem is the mindset of your co raiders.

#10 Brissa

Brissa

    Not enough rage

  • Members
  • 473 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:34 PM

have your hunters take dooms edge, cht, fang of the faceless instead. CTS is to good to be wasted on a hunter

#11 Maledict

Maledict

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,814 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:36 PM

I have to be honest, we've never had a set order for Vael. From our very first kill until today, we just have all the offtanks stand in the same spot, away from the cleaves. Each gets a healer dedicated just to them, and whenever the MT dies, and he swings round, whoever has aggro runs to the MT spot.

The tank transitions seem more about your tanks being awake and fast to move more than anything else. I personally just wouldn;t put BoS on any tanks at all, have them all fight for aggro, and just move like mad when they get it after the MT dies...

#12 Ashuko

Ashuko

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 175 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:37 PM

Brissa - thanks for the point about cleave. We've solved the "cleave jumping to melee" problem by putting tanks on the opposite side from rogues, but cleave HAS been jumping to tanks from the current target.

I'll throw the tanks the point about having the current target tank stay well back (can they go as far back as on the stairs??).

#13 Brissa

Brissa

    Not enough rage

  • Members
  • 473 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:39 PM

I cant recall exactly but im fairly confident that tanks can stand at the start of the stairs, otherwise just make sure he stands as far away from vael as he can while still being able to swing.

#14 Brissa

Brissa

    Not enough rage

  • Members
  • 473 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:41 PM

I don't think adding on the complexity of them remembering to click off BoS is worth it at the level you are at.

Salvation is worth it if you have problems having consistency in your tank transitions (by putting it on the tank who does to much threat) otherwise its not.

#15 Mem

Mem

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 599 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:41 PM

If you stand parallel to the after legs of vael no cleave will hit you if you haven't anybody standing farther forward who builds a cleave bridge.

#16 Ashuko

Ashuko

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 175 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:42 PM

Zeln - well, we've been on Vael for 3 weeks, probably about 15 attempts so far. Your point is taken, however.

Brissa - great, I'll definitely point this out!

#17 frmorrison

frmorrison

    Protector

  • Allied Members
  • 11,427 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:48 PM

4. Druids in BWL - again, at our point of progression - let 'em choose their spec or ask for restoration for now?

5. Now that we're at the point where we have more cores than we know what to do with...is it time to start offering a limited number of them out to guildies? For DKP? For random rolls? How is this normally handled?

7. How important is it to swap dead folks out of groups during the Vael fight so that priest group healing remains effective?

Let Druids spec whatever they want to, as long as they do a decent job.

If everyone has great FR, give extra cores to guildes as /random or something.

I wouldn't bother swapping out dead folks for PoH healing.

#18 Kaubel

Kaubel

    Sledgehammer Emeritus

  • Guild Members
  • 24,561 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:51 PM

I believe in letting druids choose their own spec and that there's always room for variety. For where you're at though, I'd personally expect most of them to be at least 31 restoration. If that doesn't turn out to be the case, and all of them go balance or feral (even skipping talents like imp. mark) then just go out and recruit some new druids for raiding.

I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.


#19 Ashuko

Ashuko

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 175 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:55 PM

Kaubel - that was my feeling as well. Right now out of 4-5 steady raiding druids, one is feral and one is moonkin. Both heal on Vael.

I'm tempted to say that's A-OK?

#20 Kaubel

Kaubel

    Sledgehammer Emeritus

  • Guild Members
  • 24,561 posts

Posted 12 June 2006 - 03:00 PM

Sure.

A druid can be fickle about his or her spec-o'-the-day and will change often depending on mood and the guild's needs (if the EJ druids are any indication). As long all healers are pulling their own weight, you guys should be fine.

I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users