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#21 Maledict

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 03:00 PM

Well, Moonkin are never optimal, but yes, that sounds like a good setup... :)

We've found ourselves using feral druids as tanks in more and more places - it started with Nefarian Phase 1, and now we use them on Skeram, Sartura and trash mobs as well. Having a feral druid or two around is very handy.

Naturally, *all* our druids heal on most fights, no matter their spec. Healing is a hugely integral part of their class...

#22 Praetorian

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 03:03 PM

Sorry, moonkin is never A-OK.

24/27 efficiency balance/resto is a very well-rounded raiding build. Moonkin is just silly. One true feral druid is fine.

When it comes to "forcing" specs, I agree with the way you phrased it in your first post -- it's really more a matter of asking them to go resto. For now. "For now" being the key. People should understand that learning content faster is in everyone's best interests -- it's good for morale, and it gets loot flowing into your hands faster. When you're learning a fight and every bit matters, then yes, having 2-3 resto-specced healers versus non-resto-specced healers genuinely could mean the difference between a low-% wipe and a kill. Same with having a tank who has at least 16 points in Prot versus having a Fury/Arms warrior tanking. Are you forcing them to play that way in perpetuity? Hell no. Once the place is on farm status you have a lot more room to play around. But when it comes down to it, everyone likes purples, and no one likes wiping to the same boss week after week. Explaining to people that they'd really be more useful if they dropped their spec for the time being should work. (Also note that I'm not talking about mandating cookie-cutter specs across the board or anything like that. I'm talking about stuff like pure shadow priests, moonkin druids, full BM hunters, etc.)

#23 Ashuko

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 03:03 PM

Yep. Honestly, our feral/moonkin are both great healers so it's not a big deal.

Utility class 4tw.

Edit: posted before Gurgthock...but published after his post appeared...great advice Gurg...much appreciated. I guess ultimately it sounds like the only real tweak needed would be our moonkin perhaps moving to a more balance/resto spec.

#24 Praetorian

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 03:07 PM

Yep. Honestly, our feral/moonkin are both great healers so it's not a big deal.

Utility class 4tw.

I've never entirely understood this argument. They may be great healers, but it's undeniable that they'd be better healers if they had more mana regen, cheaper heals, larger heals, larger HoTs, and so forth. If a feral/moonkin druid is performing on par with your resto druids, then that's an indication of a skill/attention disparity between the two groups, not an indication that spec doesn't matter. If those guys specced 11/40 feral/resto or some variant thereupon, they'd probably wipe the floor with your other resto druids if they're already equalling them without the spec.

Edit:

Edit: posted before Gurgthock...but published after his post appeared...great advice Gurg...much appreciated. I guess ultimately it sounds like the only real tweak needed would be our moonkin perhaps moving to a more balance/resto spec.

Again, "needed" is a strong word. Will you beat Vael and beyond with a moonkin? Sure, eventually. Would it really help to not have a moonkin spec on your raids? Yes. Up to you, and up to him, which route you prefer.

#25 Ashuko

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 03:08 PM

Hate to bring this up again, but it's a thread that got sorta lost. Regarding Core Hound Tooth - my research suggests that hunters with us at our point of progression would be best equipped with CHT/Rhokdelar. Is this the case or am I nutzo?

#26 Jerrax

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 03:10 PM

3. Vael fight: for a guild at the point we're at - how important is it to put Blessing of Salvation on tanks to make the transitions more smooth? I'm assuming if you know what I'm talking about I don't have to explain how that works...I'd just like to know if it really is a good strat or not. I've heard a lot of good things about it but am having trouble generating traction for it.

4. Druids in BWL - again, at our point of progression - let 'em choose their spec or ask for restoration for now?

6. Healing on Vael - we're going with 5 druids on current tank target, 2 priests in tank groups PoHing, pallies spot healing...and for DPS groups priests/pallies. Good/bad?

7. How important is it to swap dead folks out of groups during the Vael fight so that priest group healing remains effective?

3. Blessing of Salvation in a tanking order is nice if your warriors get it down but really consider the fact that you may be adding one more variable to your strategy that isn't required. There are a few ways to do tank transitions, if you are having Vael spin on warriors that are "out of sequence" consider tweaking your strategy. You could try using a staggered entry strat (if you have sufficient dps in the raid this works, however you need to dedicate the first 15 seconds or so to sending tanks in one at a time before an open fire) or try the "tanks on the far side" strat where after your MT has solid aggro send all your tanks in on the far side of vael (position raid accordingly to heal them PoH style) and make sure your warriors know when the current MT burns get ready to become the new MT. Whoever takes agg moves into the MT position in 2 seconds, tanks till he burns, next tank, repeat...

4. Depends on the player, if a feral druid can throw on his healing gear and keep up with the other restoration builds so be it. If an individual is clearly behind in heals within BWL and a respec would help they should be choosing to respec themselves for the good of the raid.

6.
Priests PoH constantly, and renew, shield, flash etc while PoH is on cool
Pallies Fulltime on current MT
Druids spot heal, hit HoTs, and watch tank transitions

Spread out paladins for FR aura (tank groups first priority), make sure your MT groups and Melee groups have priests

7. Don't worry about changing people on the fly especially when learning Vael, that fight is always tense for a first kill... One of the keys to the fight is having your healers adapt and cover when others explode. Ie, PriestA in tank group one goes down make sure the raid is aware of it and the druids\priests cover the warriors waiting in line with HoTs. Call it out "Group 6 priest is down, Cover them" Burning adrenaline can be merciless on occasion, your raid needs to know how to adapt and prioritize their healing if several healer catch BA.

It seems that your raid has the dps needed to take out Vael (proven through Rag) and the organization (proven through Razorgore) what you really need to focus on now is small tweaks to your strategy (positioning, group design, and handling transitions) and you'll get him down. Raids new to Vael don't normally wipe on lack of DPS its usually an agg steal, bridged cleave, someone not moving fast enough with BA, insufficient healing/fire resistance etc...

I'll say this though, we wiped on Vael for some time knowing we had the DPS to kill him easily. We spent some time reviewing his abilities and ours then adjusted our positioning accordingly and he was dead the next day.

#27 Maledict

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 03:12 PM

It is the case - but again, it has to be said - hunters upgrading from the easily craftable Dawn's Edge gain +20 attack power and +9 stamina when they get a corehound tooth. Whilst a nice upgrade, it clearly isn't anything like what a rogue is getting form the same item.

We don't have class looting in our guild, as we're pretty casual, but what we do on stuff like this is to ask the class in question to pass on the first few that drop, so that the raid force can benefit as a whole from it.

#28 Praetorian

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 03:13 PM

Hate to bring this up again, but it's a thread that got sorta lost. Regarding Core Hound Tooth - my research suggests that hunters with us at our point of progression would be best equipped with CHT/Rhokdelar. Is this the case or am I nutzo?

At your point of progression your hunters should have their epic bow and be using a Dal'Rend's set. CHT+Brutality (if you have both) are an upgrade, but at your point in progression your rogues need those weapons more than your hunters.

Ultimately, your hunters will want two 1h +crit/+AP weapons for max ranged DPS.

CHT, Fang of the Faceless, Hakkar's mainhand, BB, the Silithid Claw (down the line from AQ40 Sartura) , and Doom's Edge (sort of) are the viable candidates for those slots. Until you can get two of the above in some combination, Dal'Rend's set is better. Zin'rokh from Hakkar with a 25agi enchant also provides a good substitute for now.

#29 KalelScilla

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 03:18 PM

The absurd rarity of Dal'Rends and the fact that every rogue and warrior crucifies you for rolling on them puts a dent in that argument though Gurg. Most hunters with blue weapons go for bone slicing hatchets because at least rogues can't use it and it's too fast to make a good warrior weapon.

#30 Kaubel

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 03:26 PM

At your point of progression your hunters should have their epic bow and be using a Dal'Rend's set. CHT+Brutality (if you have both) are an upgrade, but at your point in progression your rogues need those weapons more than your hunters.

Poor Hau.

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#31 Elendril

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 03:52 PM

if you're in BWL, zg should be a non-issue. the best hunter weapon set in the game is fang of the faceless/MH hakkari warblade (barring the 2 AP upgrade from silithid claw). my guild uses a very open loot policy, and i had many opportunities to take corehound tooth from a rogue and never did so - as long as your hunters recognize that the relative value to them and to a rogue, things should work out okay.

#32 Fellwraith

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 04:20 PM

We moralsuade people when it comes to loot. Most people are pretty reasonable if you aren't heavy-handed about it. If they aren't, you should ask yourself why. Maybe they aren't a good fit for your raiding group or maybe you don't understand the issue from their side.


3. Vael fight: for a guild at the point we're at - how important is it to put Blessing of Salvation on tanks to make the transitions more smooth? I'm assuming if you know what I'm talking about I don't have to explain how that works...I'd just like to know if it really is a good strat or not. I've heard a lot of good things about it but am having trouble generating traction for it.

If you're having trouble with determining which tank is next or having trouble getting tanks to move:
1) Make sure everyone has target of target set up in CTRA. Every tank gets a target box. They need to pay attention to that box.
2) Make klh threatmeters a raiding requirement for your guild if you still have trouble with the tanking transition. I was very skeptical of the add-in at first, but the thing is like magic for determining who's getting aggro next (also useful for Broodlord). It's a crutch, but a darn good one.

7. How important is it to swap dead folks out of groups during the Vael fight so that priest group healing remains effective?

Tanks should never get cleaved, have them stand by the hind leg. Other healers need to pick up the slack, tell them to use emergency monitor. DPS should use tubers, healthstone/crystal restore, and emergency FR pots. The only reason to shift healers is if the healer for the OT's dies. Thankfully you don't have shaman so you don't need to worry about WF totems...

Also, if you get to 22% or so when the tank gets BA (and it looks like a good attempt) - shieldwall, it'll buy you more time for more executes later. Backstab rogues carry the raid's dps for the first 10% (I assume they vanish on first tank BA for you?) Executes win the day after 20%.

#33 KalelScilla

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 04:27 PM

This was a nice resource I looked at while still playing my hunter for how much dps weapons would add (he's also added some stuff on armor and he does use forumlas to take into account how crit's effective ap slides with total ap:
http://markhambly.co...nterweapons.xls

But the list of "best" hunter dual wields for dps tends to be (From best to worst):
Silithid Claw + Fang/Hakkari
Hakkari Main + Fang of Faceless
Fang of the Faceless + Brutality
Brutality + Core hound
Doom's Edge + Brutality
Doom's Edge + CHT
Hakkari DW
Doom's Edge + Scythe
Doom's Edge + BSH
Dal'Rends
Bone Slicing Hatchets
Dawn's Edge

I like your spreadsheet! Lots of work shown on that. Do you include the value of +hit anywhere? I couldn't find it and some items seemed to be undervalued on the dps they provide due to +hit not being a factor.

#34 Daevas

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 04:32 PM

Don't know if it's mentioned but paladin's holy light is one of the most effective Main tank healing spells on vael.

What we do is 5-6 healers on current tank spaming with big heals and 2 switch to next tank as soon as curren MT recieves BA, to avoid any problems during transition.

#35 Ashuko

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 04:36 PM

Very good posts on CHT - thank you all very much. Good to see what this group considers to be good hunter weapons at our stage of progression. Gurg - thanks for the details and Zeln for the spreadsheet and hunter combos.

Ok, so something popped out at me...Gurg's thoughts (and anyone else's) appreciated!

We're having Druids heal the current target on Vael. Perhaps pallies are better? Leave druids to HoT the crap outta the raid force?

#36 Twid

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 04:36 PM

*Edit* holy hell, forgetting to notice there was a page 2 made my post completely out of context

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#37 Elendril

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 04:39 PM

This was a nice resource I looked at while still playing my hunter for how much dps weapons would add (he's also added some stuff on armor and he does use forumlas to take into account how crit's effective ap slides with total ap:
http://markhambly.co...nterweapons.xls

But the list of "best" hunter dual wields for dps tends to be (From best to worst):
Silithid Claw + Fang/Hakkari
Hakkari Main + Fang of Faceless
Fang of the Faceless + Brutality
Brutality + Core hound
Doom's Edge + Brutality
Doom's Edge + CHT
Hakkari DW
Doom's Edge + Scythe
Doom's Edge + BSH
Dal'Rends
Bone Slicing Hatchets
Dawn's Edge

a minor clarification - silithid claw cannot be dual wielded with MH hakkari warblade, since both weapons are main-hand only.

#38 Ashuko

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 04:44 PM

Here's another question: why isn't the epic quest staff, Lokdelar, considered in the mix?? Is it that trashy??

#39 KalelScilla

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 04:46 PM

Here's another question: why isn't the epic quest staff, Lokdelar, considered in the mix?? Is it that trashy??

It's right up there with 2 dawn's edges for DPS purposes. Not bad for pvp considering the sta, crit, and int, but for PvE dps it's trash.

#40 Fellwraith

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 04:47 PM

DPS should use tubers, healthstone/crystal restore, and emergency FR pots.

How many of those items are on the same cooldown after the next patch though?

Only the tubers and healthstone should be on the same timer. My understanding was 3 cooldowns: potions, offensive items, other nonaggressive stuff (tubers, ndb, healthstone, etc.)

Sidenote: anyone on test determined if this is a major handicap or not? We usually go light on assigning healers to DPS and compensate by using consumables if lots of healers die in an encounter.


We're having Druids heal the current target on Vael. Perhaps pallies are better? Leave druids to HoT the crap outta the raid force?

Never underestimate the power of a well-timed NS heal on a tank when you're transitioning to a new one.




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