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Guild Progression - Questions, Concerns...


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#41 Ashuko

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 04:50 PM

Every druid in our guild with NS has a NS+HT macro.

;)

#42 Elendril

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 05:09 PM

Here's another question: why isn't the epic quest staff, Lokdelar, considered in the mix?? Is it that trashy??

Its not trashy, and I wore it as part of my NR set. It's just that no 2handed weapon currently in the game comes close to the dps added by 2 weapons plus 2 +15 agi enchants, even after they added the +25 agi to 2handed weapons.

barb of the sand reaver is close, but still not as good as the best one handers. the problem with lhok is that while +2 crit is good, at the point when you're seriously considering lhok as your melee weapon, attack power is generally more valuable with the way things scale. you're better off with DW bone slicing hatchets.

#43 Ashuko

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 05:13 PM

Why do I keep getting the feeling that this is a tough call:

Dagger Rogue: upgrading to CHT/gutgore ripper = greater impact than hunter upgrading to CHT/brutality blade.

But also on balance, if you're going to tell your raid force that rogues get either a "right of first refusal" or first dibs...you're creating a potential drama machine.

Suppose moral of the story is: communicate with your members. Make sure they know what's at stake when deciding whether to bid some DKP on something.

#44 Twid

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 05:30 PM

I'd say the moral of the story is: If your hunters aren't smart enough to pass melee weapons to melee classes, berate them in public, then implement priorities on weapons.

On a more serious note, most loot drama that I've seen has been because of unexpectedness. Class priorities eliminates some of that unexpectedness, as the highest rogue in dkp isn't going to be blindsided by a paladin who wants that CHT for a tanking weapon. People gquit when something doesn't go according to plan.

Our guild actually has a loot list, where people put their names down for things they would be interested in. If your names not on the list, you can't buy it unless there is no one on the list who wants it. What it does is easily show people (especially on cross class items) what's likely to happen on an item. If you're name is on the list you don't have to pick up the item, but the people below you know it's a distinct possibility beyond just "oh he's higher than me, but I don't know if he gives a crap about the item"

Get you some purple drank and slow yo roll.


#45 Deathkiss

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 05:35 PM

4. Druids in BWL - again, at our point of progression - let 'em choose their spec or ask for restoration for now?

Druids are as much a part of healing in raids as Priests IMHO. If your Druids don't like to heal and aren't min/maxing for it within reason, replace them ASAP. Druids who don't get this will become a problem, so deal with it sooner rather than later.

3. Vael fight: for a guild at the point we're at - how important is it to put Blessing of Salvation on tanks to make the transitions more smooth? I'm assuming if you know what I'm talking about I don't have to explain how that works...I'd just like to know if it really is a good strat or not. I've heard a lot of good things about it but am having trouble generating traction for it.

6. Healing on Vael - we're going with 5 druids on current tank target, 2 priests in tank groups PoHing, pallies spot healing...and for DPS groups priests/pallies. Good/bad?

Holy Nova FTW!

We're Horde side guild (we raid 3 days a week) and do just fine without any silly blessings.

We run 2 Holy Nova groups each with:
1 Priest
3 Rogues
1 Shaman (in your case this can be anyone, DPS warrior works)

1 Hot back-up Holy Nova Priest ready to swap in.

Basically, those groups are the core of your DPS. Other classes just can't both dump enough damage and control thier threat, so we min/max for the guys that can. Holy Nova puts out enough healing that the Rogues don't need a lot of FR to stay up, frees up the Priest to mix in Flash Heal, Renew and SW:P, adds a little DPS and makes it impossible for a Priest to pull aggro after the first 5 seconds.

Finally, threat meters are a big part of our gameplan on this fight. They are madatory for every DPS class.

edit: One last comment on Vael. Drill into people's heads, no one gets stupid or tries to be a hero at 3% or less. That's still a lot of fight left to go and he'll bring you from 30+ up to wipe way faster than anything you've probably been against up until this point.

#46 Ashuko

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 05:40 PM

Y'know, I'm really liking the idea of a "loot list" for cross-class items. It doesn't limit people, but it does help eliminate surprises.

Good stuff!

#47 Praetorian

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 05:46 PM

Yeah. You never, ever want to have uncertainty or unpleasant surprises while you're staring at the sweet loot sitting in the corpse. Let people hash out their differences in the abstract in a forum thread, well before the item ever drops. It's a lot easier to be reasonable in that setting, and then if the item does drop, people will know what to expect. As Twid astutely noted, the people who are most likely to blow up and cause a dramabomb are those who go into a raid under the assumption that if X drops, it will be theirs, are elated when X does actually drop, and then get blindsided.

#48 Fellwraith

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 06:41 PM

Classic examples include Vis'kag, Deathbringer, Thunderfury, and the Eye/Hammer from Rag. If it's under a 10% drop rate, it's hard to sell people on the "it'll drop again, no biggie" line of thinking (you're looking at 4-6 months per drop on average).

The other advantage of a wishlist is that people will pass if they know someone is jones-ing for a certain item and they can set up side arrangements. We made a deal with the hunters that they'd pass on the first couple Drakefang talismans if we passed on the first couple Prestor's off Nef. Both items are clear upgrades for both of us, but one is slightly better for one class vs the other. Now if only we could sell the warrior's on not picking up Maladath for tanking...

#49 Ashuko

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 07:01 PM

Classic examples include Vis'kag, Deathbringer, Thunderfury, and the Eye/Hammer from Rag. If it's under a 10% drop rate, it's hard to sell people on the "it'll drop again, no biggie" line of thinking (you're looking at 4-6 months per drop on average).

The other advantage of a wishlist is that people will pass if they know someone is jones-ing for a certain item and they can set up side arrangements. We made a deal with the hunters that they'd pass on the first couple Drakefang talismans if we passed on the first couple Prestor's off Nef. Both items are clear upgrades for both of us, but one is slightly better for one class vs the other. Now if only we could sell the warrior's on not picking up Maladath for tanking...

This is fantastic advice. The interesting thing is that this can be customized for your guild. For example, in 6 months of MC (with 4 of those being complete clears including Rags), we've only had 3 SoDs drop. So people are just a wee bit touchy about them. Same with the Dark Iron Ring...only 2 drops.

#50 Redziggy

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 07:15 PM

My guild is at a similar stage of the game. We've just recently taken down Vael and Broodlord. We were getting Rag to 20% in phase one by the time we took down Vael. I'm not sure if that's typical of the level of DPS needed, but it sounds like you're at about that level.

We have no loot restrictions on our DKP and for the most part everyone knows what they should and shouldn't take. The first 3 or 4 Brutality Blades and CHTs went to rogues, and recently hunters have started taking them. The only rogues that still need them either barely raid or have only been with the guild for a few weeks. Although the weapons would be better utilized on a rogue, i'm not sure the hunter with 99% attendance and 1000 dkp should have to pass to a rogue with 40% attendance and -500 dkp. I like the idea of a "first dibs" system, which is basically what we did without having it written down as a rule.

I can't imagine that your hunters actually want VK or Perdition's. They ought to be after Fang of the Faceless, MH Hakkari, Brutality Blade, and Core Hound Tooth. Your guild seems to be at a point where some or all of those should be available to the hunters unless you have awful luck with weapons.

#51 Ashuko

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 07:18 PM

I can't imagine that your hunters actually want VK or Perdition's. They ought to be after Fang of the Faceless, MH Hakkari, Brutality Blade, and Core Hound Tooth. Your guild seems to be at a point where some or all of those should be available to the hunters unless you have awful luck with weapons.

They don't. I shouldn't have listed all of the main pre-BWL epic weapons outta Ony/MC, but I did.

;)

FoF/MH Hakkari - not sure how much they know about those (in the "wow these are viable for us" sense).

Will inquire with the hunters and find out! As for first dibs...I think the loot list on cross-class items is really a good idea. My way for implementing this will be simple: just a new forum thread.

#52 enshula

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 07:38 PM

Yep forum threads work well ashuko. We also have one built into our DKP system to make it somewhat easier to see whos where in the line for various items.

I like the concept of x drops to y class first. Then opening it up. Provides the opportunity for people who are at the top or saving points to do so without permanantly locking loot to certain classes. Or you could allow people with a certain amount of standing/veterency/contribution/points earned to gain priority off class over people lower in whichever method you prefer to track that are in the priority class.

Historically i have seen various classes get very upset at the idea of 'uber item' for their class going to someone not of their class. A good example is azuresong mageblade and paladins. Sure it was arguably better for the raid to give that to casters but at some point it should cease to be important. Hopefully blizzard implements enough rewards on similar tiers that not everyone feels the need to progress from item a to b to c. But that instead we can give 1-5 items to class x then open it up for anyone who has points and wishes to buy an item the opportunity. (or new content comes out faster than the epics/week formula allows everyone to get uber item anyway)

#53 Redziggy

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 07:49 PM

FoF/MH Hakkari - not sure how much they know about those (in the "wow these are viable for us" sense).

Those are actually better for hunters than the BB/CHT combo but they don't seem to drop very often. Your rogues probably won't care much about ZG weapons since you're in BWL. It works out pretty well, rogues get the nice new weapons from BWL and hunters get the ZG weapons (which just happen to be the best for hunters).

#54 Ashuko

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 08:06 PM

You might want to look around for a site that already has done a priority listing that you like, its much harder for the lootwhores in the guild to argue with someone else's site than with you.

Why do you think I posted here to kick this whole thing off??

;)

Something else I'm pondering here...you guys are mentioning drops that will happen "deeper" in BWL than where we're at currently. So this problem is just not going to go away. I'm wondering how worried I need to be about things like the Drake Fang Talisman.

I think at the very least we need a list. Perhaps some sort of prioritizing (like 1:1 for hunters/rogues or 2:1 rogues/hunters) is a good idea...our guild will have to decide that sort of thing as a group though.

Regarding the FoF/MH Hakkari combo - anyone have the math to back up the idea that they are better than the Brutality Blade/CHT combo?

#55 oldmandennis

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 08:08 PM

When it comes to "forcing" specs, I agree with the way you phrased it in your first post -- it's really more a matter of asking them to go resto. For now. "For now" being the key.

For the majority of guilds out there, including the OP's, you are never done with content. Respec PvE this week for vael. A month later for Nef. Again for huhu....

#56 Shalas

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 08:15 PM

There's still a period of farming before you get back to working on hard bosses in a lot of cases. Once you've killed Vael, there's nothing you shouldn't kill after a couple tries until Nef. Once you kill Nef, you have the first half of AQ40 to learn before you hit bosses that are harder than him.

#57 Praetorian

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 08:16 PM

You might want to look around for a site that already has done a priority listing that you like, its much harder for the lootwhores in the guild to argue with someone else's site than with you.

Why do you think I posted here to kick this whole thing off??

;)

Something else I'm pondering here...you guys are mentioning drops that will happen "deeper" in BWL than where we're at currently. So this problem is just not going to go away. I'm wondering how worried I need to be about things like the Drake Fang Talisman.

I think at the very least we need a list. Perhaps some sort of prioritizing (like 1:1 for hunters/rogues or 2:1 rogues/hunters) is a good idea...our guild will have to decide that sort of thing as a group though.

Regarding the FoF/MH Hakkari combo - anyone have the math to back up the idea that they are better than the Brutality Blade/CHT combo?

Hakkari/FoF = +2% crit, +56 AP
BB/CHT = +2% crit, +38 AP

No detailed math required.

For the majority of guilds out there, including the OP's, you are never done with content. Respec PvE this week for vael. A month later for Nef. Again for huhu....

This is a good point and something that I overlooked in offering advice.

#58 Ashuko

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 08:17 PM

Shalas, you've raised another big question that a lot of guilds at our point in the "progression cycle" are asking: skip AQ40? Head straight to Naxx??

It's certainly gotten some discussion amongst guildies for us.

#59 Ashuko

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 08:20 PM

Regarding the FoF/MH Hakkari combo - anyone have the math to back up the idea that they are better than the Brutality Blade/CHT combo?

Hakkari/FoF = +2% crit, +56 AP
BB/CHT = +2% crit, +38 AP

No detailed math required.

QED.

I've got nothing to say.

:D

#60 frmorrison

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 08:20 PM

Someone beat me to it, to sum it up 56 AP beats 38 AP and worthless strength.




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