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Pure PvE Frost


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#21 KalelScilla

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 05:06 PM

http://www.wowhead.c...Eb0cZZVi0csfzVo

Pure frost raiding build. Gives you all the raiding talents, none of the pvp talents, all the damage talents and absorb talents except arcane instability, lets you get ice barrier and winters chill and improved blizzard.

#22 Chiquihuite

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 05:15 PM

I don't understand, I thought Frostbite doesn't work on almost all mobs in raid settings. And if it does, why get it and not shatter?

Actually, I was pretty surprised to learn that a lot of raid mobs are succeptable to it. The only major problem is that you have to shell out a lot of talent points to get Shatter, and some people feel that its amazing power in some situations is overshadowed by the fact that more raid mobs are immune to frostbite than are succeptable.
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#23 arch

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 06:07 PM

Hmm, I noticed that I ran oom pretty quickly while dpsing anub'arakh in Naxx. I lost 6% regen while casting since 1.10 (I had 2/5) but I gained 3/3 master of elements so I thought that would cover it.

I'm not very good at the spirit mechanics, so can anyone tell me how much those 15% from meditation will regen over say a 3 minute chaincasting period with 270ish spirit ? Or provide a formula. I did some crazy maths based on the combat mechanics thread here, and the result was 80 mana every 2 seconds while casting. That's certainly bullshit, so can any skilled math pro help me out?
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#24 Soul

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 06:39 PM

Spirit mana regen outside of FSR is (13 + spirit/4) per tick for mages. So, with 270 spirit, your spirit-based regen while not casting would be 80.5 mana a tick. Meditation would give 15% of that in the FSR, so, while casting, you'd get 0.15*80.5 ~= 12 mana every 2 seconds. So, in 3 minutes, you'd get 1080 mana, give or take.

#25 Whitemane

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 10:05 PM

If you're a PvE minded guild with a team of mages that are interested in working together, all depending on how useful ice barrier is and all, you should consider going for Arcane Concentration + Master of Elements for maximum efficiency. Of course you would need a few mages to get Winter's Chill, but the combo could definitely be interesting.

Anyways, the build could be quite interesting.

#26 Harther

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Posted 24 June 2006 - 02:35 AM

Points are too spread that way, in my opinion.

If I was aiming frostbolt spamming with Arcane Concentration, Meditation is only 8 more points into a tree rather then 18.

#27 Whitemane

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Posted 24 June 2006 - 06:23 PM

Points are too spread that way, in my opinion.

If I was aiming frostbolt spamming with Arcane Concentration, Meditation is only 8 more points into a tree rather then 18.

It would take some math to figure out how much meditation is, but the good part about fire is also that you can vary your damage - your fire output is okay and your frost output is just as good as any other frost spec mage. However you loose some of the utility in the frost spec, but that's it.

#28 Drauk

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Posted 24 June 2006 - 06:39 PM

If you're planning a spec around Naxx, you really, really are going to want Arcane Meditation. As much Absorption as you can manage will also be helpful. Mages go through mana alarmingly fast on many of these fights and the limiting factor suddenly becomes mana. For Horde especially.

QFT. Currently im fire with AM and MoE, and you know - im just scared to see how fast my mana is gone now. And im Alliance.

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#29 PapaShlapa

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Posted 24 June 2006 - 09:26 PM

I went 17/31/3 -> http://www.wowhead.c...E00MZxgM0fcht0h

I gotta say, it OWNED the DM during last night's naxx raid. I was #1 over Combat Dagger rogues, rogues with GM weapons, and other mages who had 100 or more +dmg than me. I'm at 560, we've got a few around 650 who were lagging a good bit behind me with heavy frost specs. It's such a versatile spec, with scorch for when you need mana and fireball/fireblast combos for when you've got mana to burn. The lasting power was pretty good too, with scorch. I'd recommend anyone out there to try it and see the huge difference over a frost spec.

#30 CrazyGamer

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 02:19 AM

Interesting build PapaShlapa. It does indeed seem excellent for heavy damage dealing but how do you feel about the sacrifices you make to achieve that damage? Personally, I find my damage with frost quite sufficient and I love the great survivability I gain by having iceblock and ice barrier. Also, I could be wrong, but wouldn't frost be superior from a mana endurance point of view, even if fire may be able to outperform the damage sufficiently to still come out in top of overall damage?

Oh and how useful do you find the new Combustion in a raid setting?
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#31 Praetorian

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 03:22 AM

On a separate note, good lord, a bunch of AQ-geared Frost/Arcane mages absolutely tear through Ouro in 1.11. Never seen the last 20% go so quickly.

#32 Thrillho

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 03:42 AM

Interesting build PapaShlapa. It does indeed seem excellent for heavy damage dealing but how do you feel about the sacrifices you make to achieve that damage? Personally, I find my damage with frost quite sufficient and I love the great survivability I gain by having iceblock and ice barrier. Also, I could be wrong, but wouldn't frost be superior from a mana endurance point of view, even if fire may be able to outperform the damage sufficiently to still come out in top of overall damage?

Oh and how useful do you find the new Combustion in a raid setting?

It's identical to the build I used when we were doing Naxx on test; and it's excellent. I've been taking a bit of a break from playing for the past week (and I'll be off another week) since I have a ton of RL shit to take care of. I found Combustion to be really solid in a raid setting. I still haven't decided what spec I'm going to be, although I believe I have a certain reputation of polymorphing people on Nef that needs to be upheld.

The big difference with the Mage review as I see it, is that the best Fire PvE mage build is now a pretty poor PvP build, whereas the best Frost PvE build is extremely good for PvP. That's part of what's making my decision tougher as well.

It's hard to beat the mana efficiency and survivability elements of Frost.

#33 arch

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 11:00 AM

Combustion is awesome. Here's the build I use now when pwning damagemeters:
http://www.wowhead.c...Rf0EZxgMzfcut0h

THe only thing I feel that I'm missing is arcane meditation, but I might somehow include it at some point.

Btw, this is offtopic and probably old news but apparently our new threat reductions stack additively , according to the KLHTreatmeter developer. That's pretty damn imba, and I can't really see the reason for that change oO
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#34 PapaShlapa

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 04:49 PM

I'm alliance, so with JOW up, scorch spam gets better mana efficiency for me than frostbolt, I think. It's been a while since I've run the numbers, but it worked out to be scorch barely ahead if I remember correctly. Bottom line, as I see it, is that I trade frost's survivability for better dps and dpm.

Also, I've found this 17/31/3 spec to be more than sufficient in PvP. I'll admit, not having ice block sucks when you're being assisted, but half the time with ice block, it'd be down, or they'd just come right back to you anyways, and you were dead anyways. My fireball crits right now, after ignite, are in the range of 2700-3100, and 1800ish on fireblast, totally unbuffed. I've got 21% crit on fireball(25 on scorch/fireblast). In PvP, that's a fuckton of burst damage. All it takes to kill someone is a quick fireball/fireblast combo, very often.

On the issue of combustion, I love it. Stack up 5 imp scorches on a boss, with COE up, pop Combustion, wait a few fireballs, then ZHC, and watch the 4-5k crits roll in. I've seen 1500+ ignites in Naxx. The really nice thing about Combustion that many people may not know about too, is it's relatively easy to actually get 4 crits out of it instead of 3. When you've gone through 2 crits, you're usually at 5 or 6 charges on average. Then just fireball/fireblast at the same time, and they'll more often than not, both crit. Makes for some pretty dirty ignite ticks.

The build just has SO much more flexibility in its nukes for raiding. Trash packs with low hp? Fireball. Trash single pulls with high hp? Scorch till 5 then fireball. Bosses? Scorch spam. Extra mana left at the end of the boss? Start fireball/fireblasting to blow through that mana. Extra mana at the end of a pull is wasted dps. It requires more thinking, and more knowledge of when to use what, in order to get the most out of it, but when you put the effort in, the returns are so much better than frostbolt spamming with 28/23.

#35 BeavisNuke

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 05:11 PM

I'm not sure how useful Magic Absorption is for raiding but for solo farming magic-casting mobs or 5 mans in strath or something it is unbelievable. I've seen mobs completely refill my mana bar by chain-casting on me.

#36 Copernicus

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 06:52 PM

On a separate note, good lord, a bunch of AQ-geared Frost/Arcane mages absolutely tear through Ouro in 1.11. Never seen the last 20% go so quickly.

With Ice Barrier plus the new NR gear, I didn't take a single point of damage from Ouro the entire fight.

For Mage specs, Fire can have the mana effeciency of Frost, or it can scale up to do about 10-15% more damage at a much higher mana consumption. Lost in the adaptability is the survivability Frost gives with Ice Barrier/Ice Block.

#37 Kobal

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 10:37 PM

On a separate note, good lord, a bunch of AQ-geared Frost/Arcane mages absolutely tear through Ouro in 1.11. Never seen the last 20% go so quickly.

With Ice Barrier plus the new NR gear, I didn't take a single point of damage from Ouro the entire fight.

For Mage specs, Fire can have the mana effeciency of Frost, or it can scale up to do about 10-15% more damage at a much higher mana consumption. Lost in the adaptability is the survivability Frost gives with Ice Barrier/Ice Block.

Am I right assuming that this assertion is only true once you start AQ40, and that before that in MC and BWL the fire mage would be at a rather severe disadvantage?

#38 Goggles

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 11:28 PM

All the mobs in Molten Core seem to have high fire resistance but there are relatively few immune mobs. Blackwing Lair resists aren't a problem but Vael, Firemaw, Ebonroc, Flamegor and Nefarian are all immune to fire. Personally I didn't really have a problem in BWL but MC was a pain. I'm currently specced 10/33/8 although I'll probably move the 5 points in Imp. Frostbolt at some point to either Impact or Absoprtion.
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#39 Kobal

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 01:25 PM

One other thing I was wondering about, although it is only loosely related to the original topic: How valuable is +% spell hit gear now for mages?

With elemental precision theorycraft would imply that for fighting mobs of lvl 62 and below any +% spell hit is worthless, while for fighting lvl 63 mobs up to 10% are useful. Should mages change their wardrobe to fit the opponent, or rather disregard +% spell hit gear, if equivalent gear without it is available?

#40 Praetorian

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 02:26 PM

In theory, change wardrobe to fit opponent. In practice, there are 63s even among raid trash, and it's really raid-inefficient to gear up all your casters with +hit and also heavier +dam/crit stuff (well, until everyone who might want it has one, anyway). I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to get massive +hit (e.g., Angelista's), but don't avoid it on otherwise-good pieces (Bracers of Arcane Accuracy, Band of Forced Concentration, Acolyte Staff, etc.) either.

The other interesting issue is the Enigma 5-piece bonus. Really, between that and talents, you don't need +hit at all. Mages will break it up eventually, but in the interim, it pretty much gives you, by definition, all the +hit you need.




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