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Pure PvE Frost


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#41 Maledict

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 02:48 PM

Enigma's bonus seems pretty worthless now to be honest with Elemental Precision. I'm not even fully BWL geared (still need 3 Nef items and 2 NW items), and I'm running at +12% to hit. So even I would never gt the full effect of Enigmas bonus. Only place I can see it being of use on is on a high FR encounter for a frost mage - as the resist roll for frostbolt is binary and takes into account both level difference and resists, Enigma's bonus would just keep proccing and proccing and stacking and stacking until you were able to cast as normal on the mob... :)

#42 Praetorian

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 02:55 PM

I'm not sure what the point is in evaluating the Enigma set bonus as an "almosy fully BWL geared" player. The point of the Enigma bonus is that it lets you ignore +hit entirely outside those five pieces. You can go for stuff like Ritssyn's and Fallen God over Forced Conc, Burrower's over Arcane Accuracy, etc., and end up with a really min/max'd set.

#43 Brilliance

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 03:07 PM

Fire is amazing for dps.

With CoE and a scorch stat I have a 1900~ fireball. When I combust and ToEP, I drop 3k crits. The best part is the other fire mage in our guild (He is AP//Fire) plays off my scorches, and we jumped from being like 7-10 in dps to being able to hold #1 and 2 very easily. (I had a 2.2k ignite in nax and a 10k in bwl, crazy stuff o.o)

The only problem I current face with fire is mana. A "burn (kill it before it kills you) fight" really hurts me, even with evocation and have all 4 gems conjured. But fights where I can pace myself (Anub, Inscructor, Noth) I dont see any real problems

#44 Kytrarewn

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 04:34 PM

In theory, change wardrobe to fit opponent. In practice, there are 63s even among raid trash, and it's really raid-inefficient to gear up all your casters with +hit and also heavier +dam/crit stuff (well, until everyone who might want it has one, anyway). I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to get massive +hit (e.g., Angelista's), but don't avoid it on otherwise-good pieces (Bracers of Arcane Accuracy, Band of Forced Concentration, Acolyte Staff, etc.) either.

It takes a bit more micromanagement than I generally like, but since getting my ACL gloves, I've been swapping them, along with my mugger's belt, in and out between trash and bosses, so mage's really aren't the only class that have that issue.

As far as +Hit is concerned: Almost every mage is going to have 2 ZG enchants, and they are going to have E.Precision. That's 8% hit right there, and with the ZHC nerf, you'll be seeing a lot more Neltharion's Tears around, so that's 10%. That brings the spellhit chance against a 63 to 93, or 98 when the Enigma Bonus procs. Against a 62 it's the full 99% without wasting the Enigma Proc or any "weird" spellhit pieces (ie. Angelista's Shard), but if you pick up a Staff of the Ruins or Acolyte Staff, you're at the full 99% possible, without having to give up superior pieces like Gloves of Delusional Power, Eyestalk Waistband or (though this is debatable) allows you to use Shackles of the Unscarred instead of Arcane Accuracy (giving you a bit more flexibility against mobs resistant to your chosen spell school, and letting you pick up a "new" stat instead of getting more +Hit).


As far as fire mage sustainability, between Clearcasting and Master of Elements, my fire mage has been able to cast pretty close tio indefinitely while solo-grinding if I go with the Scorch (though that might be somewhat because of my scorch button having that damned "Clearcaster" macro) route, but if I get greedy and go for fireball, it's all gone within 4-ish 52 solo mobs. That said, even pre-1.11 in MC our fire/scorch mage was near the top of our Mage DMs. It's only going to be better in AQ/Naxx onward.
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#45 Papajan

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 06:14 PM

I specced all frost but Frost Warding, Arcane Subtlety for -10 resists, and 1 point into Impact (for fun). I haven't seen past Huhuran yet, but I haven't had too many mana problems between Evo, mana gems, Blessing and Judgement of Wisdom, demonic rune/bandage, and nightfin soup. I only use the last two on really long fights though.

It isn't really clear to me that you meant PvE raiding as opposed to PvE solo or 5-man. I like the nearly full-frost spec because it's good for raiding and really good for farming. If you're speccing frost entirely for raiding, then first figure out who in your raid has Winter's Chill and decide if you need Ice Barrier. It all revolves around those two decisions. If you want Ice Barrier to mitigate some damage or Winter's Chill to buff other frost mages, then you'll probably want 31 points in frost. A lot of the talents have little benefit in the raid fights I've been in (Frost Warding, Permafrost, Frostbite, Imp Blizz, Imp Frost Nova, Shatter, Imp Cone of Cold), so 31 points into frost is probably all you need for raiding. Cutting out talents like Frostbite also allows you to pick up some of the goodies in Arcane. Like others have said, Arcane Concentration (Clearcasting) is an incredible talent. Arcane Meditation is another wonderful talent to keep your mana up. Arcane Instability is an excellent talent for raiding as well, which is what the 28 arc 22 frost build is for. Magic Absorption... that's a tough call and I'd say it depends mostly on the resistance gear you have. If you're using the Runed Stygian set for shadow resist, it's probably not helpful - you already have a good source of mana. If you're using the Sylvan or Glacial set, it'll be helpful cause there's no source of mana on those pieces.

In theory, change wardrobe to fit opponent. In practice, there are 63s even among raid trash, and it's really raid-inefficient to gear up all your casters with +hit and also heavier +dam/crit stuff (well, until everyone who might want it has one, anyway).

yeah, having sets per mob level in ItemRack or Wardrobe is a nice way to optimize your dps. My problem with varying to-hit based on mob level is that it requires more gear overall. For one, I've already got bag space problems between resist gear and conjured water. The second issue is that it requires taking more loot from 40-mans. This would have implications for my DKP as well as the gear of the rest of the raid.

#46 PapaShlapa

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 06:36 PM

Fire is amazing for dps.

With CoE and a scorch stat I have a 1900~ fireball. When I combust and ToEP, I drop 3k crits. The best part is the other fire mage in our guild (He is AP//Fire) plays off my scorches, and we jumped from being like 7-10 in dps to being able to hold #1 and 2 very easily. (I had a 2.2k ignite in nax and a 10k in bwl, crazy stuff o.o)

The only problem I current face with fire is mana. A "burn (kill it before it kills you) fight" really hurts me, even with evocation and have all 4 gems conjured. But fights where I can pace myself (Anub, Inscructor, Noth) I dont see any real problems

I can't say why, but I haven't had the mana problems you say you're experiencing. If anything, I can switch to scorch for retardedly high mana efficiency. I find scorch spam to have better lasting power than frostbolt, actually, because it procs JOW almost twice as often, and has such a low mana cost. The DPS is higher than frostbolt too. However, I've got like 23% crit with kings on fireball, so I'm getting mana back from MOE all the time.

The way I see it right now, Fire does better sustained single target DPS. In situations like Maexxna where you're shooting the webbed people, or AOE situations though, frost wins out with its shorter cast time over fireball, shatter, imp blizz, and the added survivability of Ice Block and Ice Barrier. I see the Frost vs Fire akin to the Combat Swords vs Combat Daggers comparisons for rogues.

On a slightly unrelated note, Brilliance, how the fuck are you doing 1900 fireballs without potions? I'm at like 1400 unbuffed, and maybe 1700ish(I think?) with scorch/COE. I've got around 560 +dam. On our last Patchwerk attempts though, I had a Supreme Power, Greater Arcane Elixir, Blessed Wizard Oil, Greater Fire Power, and the AD trinket on, doing like 2100 or so I think, to him. Was a nice feeling :p

#47 Thrillho

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 06:55 PM

JoW :ssj:

#48 Lord BEEF

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 07:12 PM

Jesus, Improved amplify magic gives +225 healing? I would want a mage with that in every raid I'm on
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#49 frmorrison

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 08:31 PM

Jesus, Improved amplify magic gives +225 healing? I would want a mage with that in every raid I'm on

It a nice buff, but how about the 112 more magic damage taken?

Certainly good on a physical damage encounter, but is it worth the extra damage in other situations?

#50 CheshireCat

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 08:47 PM

Well, in most situations, if you throw it the 112 penalty is getting applied, what, every 3-5 seconds?

Where the healing bonus is getting applied multiple times per second.

I'd say it's like Curse of Recklessness in a lot of ways: Its benefit scales massively with the size of the group, while its penalty (usually) doesn't.

And so the conclusion is pretty much the same: You should use it on most fights, but avoid it on encounters where burst damage (magical for AM, physical for CoR) is threatening to kill your tank.

Since Broodlord's deadly spike is usually a Blast Wave and a MS together, I wouldn't use it there. (Until you've outgeared the encounter, anyway.)

AM is not quite as appealing as CoR, though, in that increased DPS will almost always make a fight easier, where in a lot of situations, increased mana efficiency for your healers just gives them more mana when you're handing out loot.

Still, as a healer, I'd never turn down better mana efficiency.

#51 Lurchington

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 08:54 PM

Jesus, Improved amplify magic gives +225 healing? I would want a mage with that in every raid I'm on

It a nice buff, but how about the 112 more magic damage taken?

Certainly good on a physical damage encounter, but is it worth the extra damage in other situations?

it's just a math exercise at that point. Sort of how curse of recklessness is shown to speed things along, even in spite of the drawback.


things to consider:

-Twice as much +heal and +received damage, so on the surface, you're coming out ahead.
-It's generally accepted that a raid boss has an infinite mana pool, whereas the healers have a finite pool. Thus, a better Healing per Mana is highly desirable for increasing endurance over a fight. It's not like you're allowing a boss to come up with a large chunk of additional damage in terms of the mana pool though, because there's essentially the potential for infinite damage.
-In general, the greatest danger to a tank is in burst damage, in which the additional 125 damage is a small percentage of the damage already heading his way.
-The +225 to healing is a bonus for any healer aiming at the target, potentially multiplying the the use you get out of the buff a great deal. If you're facing a single magic user, the debuff is being used a far smaller percentage.


I view this is very similar to Curse of Recklessness in that:

if (Buff * ((Healers_Targetting)*(heals_landed_per))) > (Debuff * ((Opponents_Targetting)*(damage_hits_per))):
then use amplify magic.

this account for situations where it's a bad idea, for example in the Rend event (lol, not an experienced raider :-( ), where you have 4-5 dragonkin lobbing lighting at the tank say 20 times, and you only have 3 healers who each heal the tank 3 times, you're coming up in the negative.

225 * 3 * 3 < 125 * 5 * 4

2025 bonus healing < 2500 damage taken. So this is any example of a bad trade.

edit: I had to walk away halfway through typing this. :-(


To clarify, I don't think burst damage is the problem, because there's a neglible difference between a 3000 shadowbolt when compared to a 3112 shadowbolt. The problem is when that's coming for a lot of different sources, where the debuff hits a great number of times.


edit 2: It's MIND GAMES Posted Image

#52 CheshireCat

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 08:59 PM

Heh. Okay, the similar points I'll grant you could be coincidence, but the CoR analogy is clear proof that you are living inside my skull.

Get out of my head, please, LurchDawg. I need it for, um, stuff.




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