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Cataclysmic Hunter Changes


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#1 arison

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 01:11 AM

Current known Cataclysm Changes:
  • No more mana; Focus used instead
  • 2AP from Agility, 0 from Int
  • Steady Shot as a resource provider
  • No more consumable ammo
  • "Fewer" cooldowns to manage

Relevant links:

Editorial:
Looks like we're getting some of the big revamps promised before. Fewer cooldowns, no consumable ammo, no mana, and (once again) 2 AP per agility.

Obviously we will be getting many talent changes as well, but this is easily the largest change to our class in the history of WoW (aside, perhaps, of removing our ability to wear shields).

Oh, and a legendary two handed axe in 3.3! Clearly a Hunter weapon.

Taken at more depth, the idea of Steady Shot being not only a filler shot but a focus-gaining mechanism is tremendously interesting. Haste improving regen likewise looks to have the potential as a very big change (not only affecting us, but our pets as well). While details are brief, to me it feels like playing the class will be much more fun and bring about a streamlined modernization to our gameplay. With shots supposedly costing 30 or 60 focus (i.e., 5 or 10 seconds of focus regen without Steady Shot), cooldowns will be more reduced. Our gameplay will change significantly.

I'll update this post with details as they become available form Blizzcon and other sources.

#2 Guest_Akardin_*

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 01:46 AM

The current focus regeneration rates are 6f / second normally and 12f / second during Steady Shot.
Focus is capped at 100.

My question is:
Will the 12f/ second regeneration only occur while casting Steady, or will the increased regen hold until you cast a focus consuming ability?

Is there anyone that will be able to ask this during one of the upcoming panels?

My current thinking is that it might a system similar to the FSR that is activated on casting a Steady Shot, or a system that will just grant increased regen for around 2-3 seconds after each Steady Shot cast.

#3 Stack

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 01:59 AM

I don't want to be a rogue with a bow =/.

#4 Gonkish

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 02:23 AM

I don't want to be a rogue with a bow =/.


Well it's either that, or continue to be utterly reliant on JoW.

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#5 Shadowzuka

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 02:24 AM

Things are certainly going to be a lot different. Haste is gonna become very useful to us. Rapid Fire will be our burst cooldown now, as well as bloodlust not sucking that much for us anymore. It is going to effectively make us have to relearn how to play the class.

I'm really interested in the whole thing behind steady. It does sound like it won't cost anything to fire it, as its our primary means of regen, but with a much higher cost on our shots, we likely won't be having a cooldown on them.

The talent trees are certainly have to be revised, and I'm curious on what extra regen on focus we'll be getting in terms of talents, not to mention the bigger part of Talent Mastery that they were going on as well as Path of the Titans.

#6 Ketari

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 03:18 AM

I'm really interested in the whole thing behind steady. It does sound like it won't cost anything to fire it, as its our primary means of regen, but with a much higher cost on our shots, we likely won't be having a cooldown on them.


My concern here is - especially in PvP - we're once more going to have problems on movement fights. Of course, it's far too early to draw conclusions, but based just on what's so far been said, I think it's a reasonable concern.

And... 6 stats on gear to interest us, it seems: agi, sta, haste, crit, "mastery", hit

#7 Thelastdeadmouse

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 03:26 AM

My concern here is - especially in PvP - we're once more going to have problems on movement fights. Of course, it's far too early to draw conclusions, but based just on what's so far been said, I think it's a reasonable concern.

This is the first thing I thought of when I heard the announcement live, and I'm surprised more people aren't talking about it. At 6f/s when on the move and ability costs of 30 or 60 focus, that's 5 to 10 seconds at a time without being able to use any (offensive?) abilities besides a stutter step auto-shot. In PvP and even in PvE 5 to 10 seconds is a long, long, long time.

Unless they announce at another class panel that Hunters will be able to cast Steady Shot while running or will have another significant source of focus gain, there's no way this will go through as its been described so far.

Personally, I don't see why if an Improved Stormstrike or Judgements of the Wise type ability is good enough for Enhancement Shaman and Ret Paladins, why isn't it good enough for us?

#8 Texicles

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 03:59 AM

And... 5 stats on gear to interest us, it seems: agi, sta, haste, "mastery", hit


Nothing that I've read so far from any of the panels would indicate "mastery" is a stat. From what I gathered from one of the WoW.com's writeups, mastery will function as sortof an extension of the talent system, serving as a vehicle for the +Hit and +Dmg talents we know and love on live.

...The Mastery system is set to simplify the talent trees. Mastery passive talents will then be available based on the talent tree you choose, and offer some of the core talents like "+10 damage" or "+ Heal."...


I'll be interested to see whether or not tomorrow's Class/Items/Profs panel covers Crit. It's a little strange that they completely skipped it in anything I've read, to include Blue posts.

Also, on the topic of Sta as a stat, it will be interesting to see if the new "Reforging" ability will allow us to remove some (or most if fight mechanics don't dictate minimum health pools) and reallocate those item budget points to something our gear lacks. From what I understand, this seems likely.
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#9 arison

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 04:01 AM

Because those specs are variants of mana using classes. If we had Judgements of the Wise or Improved Stormstrike (which basically mean never running out of mana), why give our class a mana bar at all? Those classes' other specs use mana differently. Having our own custom solution that fits the class better than mana makes sense. I'm sure there will be plenty of abilities, talents, and glyphs to change regen rate, reduce ability cost, etc. We only have the tiniest sneak peek at the ideas intended, not the final implementation, but currently our best case instant shot ability is on a 6s cooldown, so even if it is 5s regenerating... it is still an improvement over today.

#10 Ketari

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 04:14 AM

Nothing that I've read so far from any of the panels would indicate "mastery" is a stat.


Confusingly enough, there are two mastery systems referenced. The one you refer to, and another:

Armor Penetration: This ability is too confusing and "mathy." It is being replaced with Mastery, a stat that makes you better at what you do. More on that later!


And well, they haven't mentioned crit at all no (I realised just after I made my last post I hadn't included that...)

#11 Thelastdeadmouse

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 05:06 AM

Because those specs are variants of mana using classes. If we had Judgements of the Wise or Improved Stormstrike (which basically mean never running out of mana), why give our class a mana bar at all? Those classes' other specs use mana differently. Having our own custom solution that fits the class better than mana makes sense. I'm sure there will be plenty of abilities, talents, and glyphs to change regen rate, reduce ability cost, etc. We only have the tiniest sneak peek at the ideas intended, not the final implementation, but currently our best case instant shot ability is on a 6s cooldown, so even if it is 5s regenerating... it is still an improvement over today.


Keep in mind though that's a six second cooldown on a specific ability, not on abilities in general. In a PvP situation as Survival or Marks, by adding in cooldown reducing glyphs, standard dps shots like aimed, Exp/Chim, stings and utility shots like Tranq and Concussive Shot, you can pretty well fill your global cooldowns with very few gaps and certainly none approaching 5 seconds long.

I really have no doubt though that there will be talents, glyphs, abilities and spells that will increase focus regen or reduce cost in any number of ways by the time the expansion rolls out. What does concern me though is their vision for our new resource regeneration system will from its base design deepen our pre-existing issues with movement.

#12 Grogzor

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 05:08 AM

Its nice blizzard is making haste also increase focus regen, I am going to be willing to guess though that steady shot will cost 0 focus...at least I hope so. I wonder how they are gonna handle that with traps and our other non-shot abilities, cause I for one would think its pretty cool if traps go down to 0 cost and just stay cooldown based, that way they wouldn't be such a liability for using up focus, and the only drawback to using them is the GCD they eat vice the large resources they take.

I still am wondering how this will play into hunter pvp...having to worry about GCDs and Focus is going to kind of suck for all our different abilities we can use. Blizzard will probably figure it out though. I can't wait to ranked BG with my hunter though...at least it will offset the fact we are largely fail in arena.

#13 Lazydriver

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 05:11 AM

A good idea to stop Hunters from becoming "Rogues with a bow" would be to have them only lose "focus" on greater abilities. For example, you could choose to use a lesser ability and not lose any focus (but have less overall dps), or use a greater ability and lose focus (great for finishers or better DoT spells). It would allow Hunters to stop worrying about mana, keep a rotation, and destroy the need for mandatory cooldowns (because the "focus" takes care of that).

#14 Guest_alienangel_*

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 05:30 AM

Isn't the biggest problem with plate itemization the fact that they only put STR on it, instead of agi+Ap on leather (and +int on mail), the latter giving the wearer more total stats for the same itemLevel? Stripping off AP from leather/mail sounds like it'll just subject us to the same iLvl limitations as plate wearers.

Also, not sure how I feel about focus. It'll likely mean we'll switch to be resource limited (finally) instead of GCD limited, which will make things a lot less hectic, and also unshackles us from pallies. But it also leaves us ... resource limited - with all the burst vs sustained vs really long sustained trade offs that means for rogues/ferals. I've never really played a hunter before that isn't limited solely by cooldowns and GCDs :(

And of course great sadness at dropping ArP :(. But I guess 2 expansions where people stack it up to 100% is too much.

#15 bule

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 06:00 AM

With all of that said, with spamming Steady to get focus i really would like to see how our rotation would be...60 + 30 focus cost, are the lesser skills like aimed shot going to be 15 or 10? That is going to be weird if we pop big shots spam steady and big shots again.

Only thing i find very...hard to adapt to will be the rotation of using less shots. I do have to say its going to be nice to not have to be limited by mana or having to stack INT anymore!

#16 Texicles

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 06:42 AM

Thanks Ketari, I actually read that post (remember ArP being called "mathy") but I seem to have missed the mastery as a stat reference. You're very right about that being confusing and obviously, we all want to know more.

Another one for speculation is, with the change to a focus system, making us resource-limited, I'm wondering if this will finally deliver us the 1 sec GCD that we've lusted and longed for. Though, with the likelihood of Steady Shot becoming instant (with the haste changes, it's unlikely that hunters will have many if any cast times), may mean that it doesn't really matter so much anymore. Lots of questions that will hopefully be answered soon.
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#17 Lilbitters

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 06:47 AM

Oh, and a legendary two handed axe in 3.3! Clearly a Hunter weapon.


Actually Wryxian did say:
There will be a new legendary two-handed axe available for death knights and hunters in Icecrown Citadel.

#18 arison

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 07:03 AM

I think it is safe to assume abilities with cooldowns will have reduced (or zero) focus cost. Assuming the abilities we have today remain on the same GCD, effectively choosing something like Concussive Shot means you don't do damage with that GCD and probably is neutral in terms of focus regen. One GCD today would be 9 focus regen, so perhaps accessory abilities would cost some other value, perhaps 3-9. It is reasonable that choosing to use Concussive Shot has some tradeoff. The use of the GCD may be enough tradeoff, or a token energy cost may be.

I also imagine the desire is for us to not be GCD locked. I suspect that means harder hitting active shots that we fire less often. Our focus reservoir is for initial burst but steady state means pacing and alternating shots. Now today, we choose, say, aimed because of a cooldown, but in a cooldown-less world with focus, we may never choose it unless it is a high damage ability or for its debuff. This will simplify rotations and make our shot selection much more situational.

From the sound of the intent, basically focus is to keep us from spamming our best shots and make our resource management more tactical rather than strategic. I don't think it is to take away our other abilities short of eliminating redundancy of having multiple damage dealing shots that we interleave based on cooldowns.

That's a lot of "I suspect" and "it sounds like" though. We have very limited information at this point. I think the key takeaway right now is: no mana, instead tactical resource management. In reality, this means we will be getting a tremendous amount of attention (more than other classes? who knows, but I suspect there is a reason we had our own highlight in the panel since there clearly isn't time for all of the other classes). Hopefully this means we emerge on the other end of Northrend with a more interesting, modern class that provides new challenges and different tradeoffs.

#19 arison

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 07:08 AM

I can't imagine Shadowmourne really is a dk/hunter weapon. There isn't really such a thing as a dk weapon (they share itemization with dps warriors and ret paladins). I think the hunter bit is a joke, as on the slide there was a snarky comment at the bottom saying "hunter weapon." I expect the Wryxian quote is a misunderstanding or confusion or just silly joke.

Of course, hey, if they want to give us a legendary, awesome, but I am skeptical if for no other reason than it would just be stats for us but the innate dps of a weapon is a huge deal for melee classes, whereas for any melee class, it would be a much larger dps source.

#20 Chicken

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 08:02 AM

I can understand you're exciting by the upcoming expansion, however there isn't enough information released about it yet to warrant class-specific discussion threads. Please keep your discussion to the BlizzCon thread in General Discussion.

Edit: These types of threads will be fine once testing of the expansion with publicly available information has started.




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