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Hunter Item Comparison (and damage) Spreadsheet


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#1 Lactose

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 05:44 AM

INTRO AND GENERAL INFORMATION:
Hello all =)

The Hunter Item Comparison Spreadsheet (HICS) is available for download!

Current version uploaded 29.08.06


LINK:
http://www.talnivarr...se/HICS_2.0.xls

To view this file you need Microsoft Excel, or a similar program (for example Star Office).


I have made a spreadsheet to compare items / weapons for hunters in terms of damage in a PvE (raid) setting.
You can also compare different talent builds.

It shows your damage while using the Aimed + Multi cycle.
It also shows you how crit, agility and Ranged Attack Power compare to each other based on your gear and build.
It even includes buffs!
Basically everything you want to know when selecting gear for a PvE (raid) encounter, no? :)

Note: Due to not knowing how to calculate crit% based on agility for levels lower than 60, this will only be correct for level 60 hunters.


WHAT'S TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION:
Agility
Ranged Attack Power
Crit%
+Weapon skill
+Hit%
Ranged weapon damage
Ranged weapon speed
Multi Shot rank (including rank 5, found in AQ)
Aimed Shot rank
Talents: Ranged Weapon Specialization, Trueshot Aura, Killer Instincts, Lethal Shots, Mortal Shots, Lightning Reflexes, Barrage, Improved Aspect of the Hawk, Slaying talents and Surefooted.
Giantstalker 8/8 bonus
PvP gloves Multi-Shot bonus
Quiver speed
Ammo DPS
Mob level
Buffs


COMPARING ITEMS:
For all stats: Use the number you see in the character sheet. For RAP, have Aspect of the Hawk active. If you have Trueshot Aura, write down the RAP without it active.
For crit%, take the number from hovering 'Attack' in the spellbook.


Input your agility, RAP, crit%, + weapon skill, +hit%, weapon stats, skill ranks, talent points, yes/no on Giantstalker 8/8, scope, quiver, ammo DPS and mob level. Then input stats on your current item(s), then the same with the new item(s).
To toggle using the new item(s), use the 'Use New (Yes = 1)' field.

Example:
You want to see if your damage output potential is higher with 2x Dawn's Edge or 1x Barbarous Blade.

In the 'Current item(s)' you input:
Agility: 30 (0 + 30 from enchants)
RAP: 0
Crit%: 2

In the 'New item(s)' you input:
Agility: 25 (0 + 25 from enchants)
RAP: 60
Crit% 1
Use New: 1


Note: You can compare items (melee weapons, rings, necks, etc) or ranged weapons easily, but also a combination! Striker's Mark combined with Mark of Fordring vs Ashjre'thul combined with Prestor's Talisman of Connivery, Ancient Bone Bow vs Carapace Spine Crossbow. It's all up to you.


COMPARING TALENT BUILDS:
Instead of inputting items, you can see the difference in damage potential by changing talents (most common example would be a Marksman build vs a LR-build).

For comparing build only: Clear current and new items, clear new weapon. Put a 1 in the 'Use new' next to the talents you want to compare.
So going from a 5/31/15 to a 21/30 build, you'll type in something similar to this:

Talent		Current		New		Use new?
RWS..............5		0		1
TSA..............1		0		1
Killer I.........0		3		1
Lethal Shots.....5		5		1
Mortal Shots.....5		5		1
LR...............0		5		1
Barrage..........3		0		1
iAotH............5		0		1
Slaying..........3		3		1
Surefooted.......0		3		1
Not only can you compare weapons / items or talent builds, you can do both! Ancient Bone Bow combined with 2x Dawn's Edge and a 0/31/20 build compared to Rhok'delar combined with Ice Barbed Spear and 0/21/30 build.


WHAT YOU GET:
Current and new:
Weapon speed
Paperdoll DPS
Auto Shot DPS with Slaying and crit & hit added
Aimed + Multi cycle with Slaying, with crit and hit factored in, with iAotH.
Damage change per cycle, in both percent and pure damage.
A comparison for crit, agility and Ranged Attack Power.

Auto Shot DPS change: DPS change if you used *only* Auto Shot (with crits and hit added in). If you had 200 Auto Shot DPS (before armor) currently, and new was 210, Auto Shot DPS change would be 10.
Auto Shot DPS change in %: Same as above, but converted into percentage. 200 --> 210 would be a 5% increase.

Change in total DPS: DPS change using the best cycle for that weapon (Aimed Shot + Multi-Shot).
Change in total DPS (in %): Same as above, converted to percentage.
These 2 are the values you'll be most interested in.

The change in total DPS is listed for 2 cycle types; clipped and full. Depending on your weapon's speed, one of them will be optimal, and this is the cycle you should try to achieve. As a tool for comparing weapons, I've also included the sub-optimal cycles, to show which weapon would have the highest damage potential if you for example have lag, or just aren't able to time it as good as you'd like.
Note that using the DPS from both cycles is not a good idea for comparing weapons. For example, if you know the best cycle for The Milk Makerâ„¢ is clipped, you shouldn't make half your cycles full; you should try to use the best cycle whenever possible.


CYCLE TYPE:
Should you clip your cycle (discard the Auto Shot currently cooling down and fire Aimed Shot immediately)? Or should you use a full cycle (wait for the Auto Shot to fire before using Aimed Shot? There's the answer ;)
For a more detailed post regarding cycles, feel free to check http://forums.wow-eu...opicId=15211926


OUTRO:
I will continue updating this if people are interested.

Please, feel free to comment, come with suggestions, questions, corrections if anything seems wrong, etc. I can be reached either in this thread / on this forum, or in-game. Send a whisper to Lactose on Talnivarr (EU) server if you want to say hello =)
If I'm not online on Lactose, I might be on my alt; Label.
Please respect if I don't have time to answer though =)
(Horde only, I'm afraid :P)

Thanks for reading.


CURRENTLY RESEARCHING / UPDATING:
Implement better Improved Aspect of the Hawk formula
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#2 Lactose

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 05:45 AM

CHANGELOG:
Update 29.08: PvP gloves bonus added.
Update 18.08: BoK calculations should be correct now.
Update 14.08: 2.0 version uploaded. Completely restructured, minor calculation errors fixed, cycle calculations changed to include Auto Shot delay after Aimed Shot.
Update 13.07: Buffs implemented. Read more at page 7.
Update 03.07: Minor change to post; added some pictures to better show examples.
Update 30.06: Changed calculations for +hit%, Improved Aspect of the Hawk, critical damage from Slaying talents. Removed Serpent Sting (and everything related), added Lethal Shots, changed some formatting. Still need more data on +weapon skill.
Update 28.05: Ammo is now calculated correctly for Aimed Shot and Multi-Shot.
Update 20.05: Link back up. Shot calculations now working for every weapon, including damage lost from conflicting cooldowns (Aimed Shot + Multi-Shot cooled down at the same time).
Update 09.05: Fixed incorrect values for "In terms of damage gained per cycle" section.
Update 08.05: Fixed Auto Shot timers, updated Aimed Shot / Multi-Shot calculations in regards to cycle. See post on page 6 for details.
Update 03.04: Removed all mana oriented stats. Fixed some small talent miscalculations in certain scenarios regarding LR & agility, and Surefooted. Removed old (pre 1.10) version. Added a comparison for RAP, crit and agility based on your current and new gear & build.
Update 16.03: Removed 'Arcane Shot rank', since it no longer has any use.
Update 14.03: Removed the Arcane cycle. Did a huge rework of Aimed Shot cycle, which should be much more unbiased toward different weapon speeds. Added a cell to tell you if you should delay your Aimed Shot to get in an extra Auto Shot. Reworked iAotH talent, should now be as accurate as possible, as well as taking the new 12 second buff into consideration (instead of 8).
Update 26.02: Added additional version in case of 2.8 speed Aimed + Multi Shot calculations in the 1.10 patch.
Update 18.02: Added + weapon skill, Serpent Sting ranks, Improved Serpent sting, +spell damage, hit%, mob level, Surefooted, cleaned up some formulae, changed layout.
Update 15.02: Now able to compare talents as well. Added Killer Instincts and Trueshot Aura. Corrected some formulae concerning Slaying talents. Some other, minor changes.
Update 14.02: Added mana, skill ranks, time + damage until OOM, Efficiency, Slaying.
Update 13.02: Corrected Multi Shot formula. Working on implementing how long before OOM, and how much damage you do. Also adding Slaying talent.
Update 10.02: Corrected Barrage talent. Now able to upload / update at any time =)
Update 09.02: Made some changes to how it looks, removed 'Agility' from 'Current Stats', fixed GS bonus. Added version numbers (dates) to spreadsheet.
Update 08.02: New link + changed formula for auto shots.
Update 08.02: Added more information regarding it, an example, and new picture. Also changed the formatting of the post.
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#3 Lactose

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 05:45 AM

Reserved 3
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#4 Murasame

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 09:55 PM

Why does every single spreadsheet include 8/8gs bonus as part of its calculations? I don't think any of the current endgame raiders are wearing any gs at all. I think still using the 8/8gs bonus is skewing the numbers a bit.
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#5 Hypothraxer

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Posted 01 July 2006 - 11:49 AM

Have you ever tried to look at what happens when your attack speed drops to 1.6 and below? Because according to my crude calculations you will do more damage with an arcane shot / multishot combo than with aimed shot / multishot once you're at 1.6 or below:

(Green fields can be altered, yellow fields are the damage result, red fields are shot the amount of shots in the specified time period):

http://n.ethz.ch/stu...ad/hunter-2.ods

or if you're still not using iso certified spreadsheets:

http://n.ethz.ch/stu...ad/hunter-2.xls

The calculations don't take into account any benefits from attack power and what not. Rather it just let's you chose how much damage an auto shot does, how much damage an arcane shot does, how fast you're attacking and how long the fight takes and calculates the rest (normalization not taken into account. No crits either).

#6 Decker

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Posted 01 July 2006 - 09:10 PM

Nice post, but any intentions of placing checkboxes for GoA/BoK/Mongoose/buffs?

It'd be nice at least for GoA/BoK cock measuring contests...I could put the stats in manually, but it's more fun if there is just a box to tick ;)

How elaborate do you plan on making this? I find it works really well when playing around with CT Profiles, so maybe they should come borrow some of your formulas? :) I know they were having some issues with figuring out DPS or something to that effect.

#7 Lactose

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 05:07 AM

Murasame
Well, I started making this when 5/8 Giantstalker was much more common than 3/8 Dragonstalker (at least on European servers).
I don't see any reasons for not including it. If I were able to model the 8/8 Dragonstalker bonus, it would be included as well, but that's a trickier beast than I care to tackle at the moment.
Also, how is it skewing the numbers?

Hypothraxer
It's been a while since I've compared Arcane Shot cycles to Aimed Shot cycles. I can imagine some very fast weapons benefitting more from Arcane Shot than Aimed Shot, however, I can't imagine why you would ever use such a fast weapon. I think the stats of it would have to be suited a legendary weapon (or better) for it to be viable compared to similar level, but slower, weapons. Haven't had the time to check your links yet, but will do so when I'm not as busy as I am these days =)

Decker
Buffs are probably the most frequently requested for this project. I haven't included them based on various reasons. In addition, I really don't want a gigantic spreadsheet, with dozens of pages needing to be filled out, which also (to me atleast) adds some design challenges. However, I've been thinking of a system for it the last couple of days that might solve it all without being too cluttered. One can hope ;)
The only thing negative about it I can think of right now, is that it will probably force me to rewrite large parts, due to bad initial planning. We'll see how it turns out I guess...

How elaborate I make it depends largely on what the users of it want :P It's grown and changed quite a bit since the initial version, and I don't mind that trend continuing. Feel free to throw ideas my way ;)

Regarding CTProfiles, I'm not sure what they could (or want to) add. The damage ranges you see for ranged is based on a post I made, with a slight correction from someone I can't remember at the moment regarding certain ammo types. Any suggestions? =)


Thanks for comments so far, appreciate it all :)
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#8 Hypothraxer

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 04:34 AM

You can actually already get to 1.6 and below for short amounts of time with Rhok'Delar. Rapid Fire combined with Quick Shots, or Berserking can get you there. For short amounts of time (~10 seconds) even an attack speed of ~1.7-2.0 will put the arcane / multi combo in front of aimed / multi., so berserking at low health or quick shots itself can get you there as well. While it's only for short amounts of time and needs a bit of micromanagement it's still pretty easy to achieve.

Though I agree that at the moment there's no real raiding bow/gun/crossbow that allows for a choice whether to use arcane / multi or aimed / multi (perhaps Toxin Injector but I guess it's still a bit too slow). It would be nice if Blizzard could actually introduce a ranged weapon that gives a hunter the choice which type of shot rotation to use (because I really don't like the spike-damage output of the aimed shot / multishot combination very much).

#9 Lactose

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 01:52 PM

Rapid Fire, Quick Shots and Berserking (but not quiver) all affect the casting time of Aimed Shot. Even if Arcane Shot would be better than a 3.0 second Aimed Shot if your weapon's speed was around 1.6, I'm pretty certain this isn't the case with hasted Aimed Shots.
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#10 Lactose

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 02:51 PM

Finally found a way I liked of adding buffs.
You'll see something like this:

BUFFS
Agility:
Ranged Attack Power:
Crit%:
Stat Modifier:
Use buffs? (Yes = 1)


Just add the numbers =)
For example, Mark of the Wild (16 agility), Mongoose Potion (25 agility, 2% crit), Hunter's Mark (110 RAP), Blessing of Kings (+10% stats) would be:

Agility: 41
Ranged Attack Power: 110
Crit%: 2
Stat Modifier: 10%
Use Buffs? (Yes = 1): 1

Horde hunters probably won't find as much use for the 'Stat Modifier' as Alliance hunters will.

If you have Lightning Reflexes and want to add in a Mongoose Potion, still use 25 / 2% crit. It should be calculated with the LR bonus automatically.

A small note: I haven't had the time to thoroughly test this, but I'm hoping it's working as it should. If you find anything wrong, please provide as much information as possible =)

I will not be able to check back to read or reply for about 10 days, since I'm going on vacation. I will read it when I get back, so please bear with me :)

In the mean time... play nice ;)
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#11 Farstrider

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 03:18 PM

Finally found a way I liked of adding buffs.
You'll see something like this:

BUFFS
Agility:
Ranged Attack Power:
Crit%:
Stat Modifier:
Use buffs? (Yes = 1)

good way to do it, it was what I was going to suggest... bloody people these days just want everything doing for them :-)
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#12 Tinkula

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 06:39 PM

The spreadsheet somehow calculates the weapon speed incorrectly. Slow weapon speed seems to give INSANE amounts of dps increase. For example i had the same dps with huhuran stinger and a bow with 30dps and 3.5 attack speed. This is obviously wrong and totally makes the weapon comparison useless unless it's fixed.

#13 Shalas

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 07:04 PM

While there may be an error in the spreadsheet, that sounds about right. Huhu's Stinger is a terrible hunter weapon due to it's speed.

#14 Tinkula

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 07:39 PM

Hmm... i guess nobody really knows a shit tbh. Huhuran stinger was supposed to be better because of ashjre thul cause it had very close to optimal attack speed. Then again u say that huhu has crappy attack speed. The funny thing is that attack speed was normalized so only thing that affects anymore is that how well they auto shot timing goes with the aimed/multi timing. There's just no way that u can get 40dps+ damage just by switching huhuran stinger to xbow of smiting.

#15 Lactose

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 09:47 PM

https://forums-en.wo...ter-en&t=190148
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#16 Shalas

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 09:50 PM

Anyone who claimed that Huhu's has close to optimal attack speed has no clue what they're talking about. The mere fact that it's loses half a second of autoshooting while using aimed shot should make that obivous, even without knowing about the cycles. Also, the only thing that was normalized was AP on aimed shot/multishot. Ammo, autoshot, and the weapon itself are all still unnormalized. Ignoring everything else, Ashjre'thul's aimed shots hit for 30 more because the weapon itself does 30 more damage per shot. Add ammo, and it hits for 42 more. That alone is close to 10 more dps, even ignoring the fact that it cylces better.

In the optimal cycles, Ashre'thul spends .08 seconds not autoshooting, while Huhu's spends .65 seconds not autoshooting. .65 seconds of not autoshooting for 200 dps is 130 damage. Aimed shotting 1.05 seconds less often makes you lose 7 dps just from the the damage bonus. Under the dps model that the spreadsheet uses, Ashjre'Thul is optimal in a lot of ways.

#17 Lactose

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 07:33 PM

Update 14.08: 2.0 version uploaded. Completely restructured, minor calculation errors fixed, cycle calculations changed to include Auto Shot delay after Aimed Shot.

Comments are appreciated =)
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#18 Kalman

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:16 PM

Something that might be useful is net manaburn per cycle, accounting for 5SR/MP5 effects.
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#19 Lactose

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:23 PM

While I could do MP5 quite easily, time spent inside / outside 5SR with varying cycle times and non-static timestamps for Multi-Shot is... well, not a pretty sight.
If I were using a 10 second cycle as default, I could add it, but the 9 second one is the optimal one. That and the fact that with consumables you're able to outlast a 7 minute fight (even as horde), I'm not planning on adding mana any time soon.

Edit: Although, I could just add "x mana used per cycle", with Efficiency taken into account. Don't really know if that would be useful to anyone though, with no regen included...
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#20 Kalman

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 09:16 PM

Well, you basically have two concerns, yeah? Fixed-location cycles (>10s, where aimed and multi maintain a fixed location to one another), which have an easy regen calculation, and variable-location cycles (<10s), where multi changes position in relation to aimed.

On first cycle, you get them at same time. Second cycle, aimed fires then multi 1s later. Third, 2s later. Fourth, 3s later. So on until you collide multi into the aimed cast, correct? Which should occur on the 7th cycle, IIRC.

So for first cycle you get CycleLength - 5 seconds of regen. Second cycle, - 6. Third, -7. Fourth, -8. Fifth, -9. Six plus, since the cycle has to be less than 10s, you get no 5SR regen. So, depending on the length of the outer cycle (defined as when multi resets to simultaneous with aimed), you can work out the average 5sr regen per cycle and use that.

E.G., on a 9s cycle which collides on the 7th (i.e. 6 full cycles per outer), you get 4s + 3s + 2s +1s = 10s of regen every 7*9 = 63s of firing time.

(I am not a hunter, I just play one on forums. Something seems wrong with exactly what I described, probably relating to collision cycle.)

edit: Then our hunters are doing something wrong, because they bitch about running out of mana when using the optimal cycle constantly.
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