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Hunter Item Comparison (and damage) Spreadsheet


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#61 Vec

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 01:32 AM

OK, I think I figured the problem out. I believe that the only problem is the BoK buff is not being applied to the "New Item(s)" category. This should fix the problem that I was having :)

#62 Verbal

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 01:37 AM

A couple of nights ago I got Ashjre'thul and replaced my Strikers Mark (don't laugh I didn't know what I do now).

I took it in to MC today for the first time, every other hunter in the raid has Rhok and we have roughly the same rap and crit rate. All of us are speced 5/31/15.

I was thinking I would see a large increase in DPS over the other hunters on boss fights....on a few fights I was roughly equal with or just above them by 2-3k. In one fight I did 100k damage and the next best was 70k. This got me thinking maybe Ashjre'thul isn't that great.

Then I looked at what Lactose had found.

2 - Ashjre'thul, 3.4 speed
Best cycle DPS: 571, Full
Worst cycle DPS: 491, Clipped
Auto Shot DPS: 283 (9th)

Now I live in Australia with a ping of 400-600, if I miss time a cycle I'm doing 491 dps instead of a prefect cycle which is 571 dps. That's a loss of 80 dps. Now look at Rhoks best and worst cycles.

7 - Rhok'delar, 2.9 speed
Best cycle DPS: 534, Clipped
Worst cycle DPS: 517, Full
Auto Shot DPS: 282 (10th)

If someone with Rhok makes a mistake on their rotation they lose 17 dps?
And hence do 517dps on a bad cycle?
So if I make a mistake with Ashjre'thul that means people with Rhok should do more dps. This might explain why on some fights I was equal with other hunters with Rhok (my cycles must have been poor). Fights where I did alot more dps than other hunters with Rhok would mean I had a near prefect cycle for the duration of the fight?

I know there are alot of viables involved, eg lucky crits when people start dpsing etc. But if someone had a crappy ping or can't do a cycle effectively with Ashjre'thul, say for example they do a best cycle 25% or the time and a worst cycle 75% of the time.

Would their dps be 491*3 + 571 / 4 = 511 DPS for someone that can do a best cycle 25% of the time?

Now if I did the same with Rhok...

517*3 + 534 / 4 = 521.25 DPS for a 25% best cycle which is more dps than Ashjre'thul.

Now I'm not saying I'm only doing best cycles with Ashjre'thul 25% of the time, I think I'm doing better than that but I doubt I'm at 100% either. With lag and human error is a bow with a tigher best/worst cycle better? How often would a good player be able to pull off a best cycle?

I don't know if what I'm saying is right and is why I came here to get others opinions and I don't know if the maths is that simple since the timing goes all out of whack.
Maybe these bows need an effective dps chart? eg a good hunter with like 80% effective best cycles and 20% worst cycles or something.

Anyway food for thought.

#63 Lactose

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 05:07 AM

@Vec
I'll look into it, thanks for notifying. Being Horde, I wouldn't be surprised if I messed up the Blessing of Kings buff 3-4 more times before getting it all right :P

@Verbal
Saw you posted the same in the "Debunking the 9 second rotation" thread, I'll just answer here.
There's a couple of things I'd like to comment on here. The first is regarding making mistakes in cycles:
For weapons where you attempt using a clipped cycle, the only 'mistake' you can realistically make, is waiting too long. Firing too early isn't possible, due to Aimed Shot cooldown preventing it. The longer you delay the clipped cycle, the more DPS you lose; at a certain point, the best would actually be to just acknowledge you fucked that cycle up, and make it a full one (clipping 0.1 seconds before it turns into a full one would obviously not be a good idea).
For weapons where you attempt using a full cycle, you can fire too early (essentially clipping the cycle short) - this is in most cases very bad for your damage output. Just like above, imagine starting Aimed Shot 0.1 seconds to early with Ashjre'thul - you'd be waiting almost 6 seconds from your last Auto Shot to your Aimed Shot fires. Ouch.
The other way to mess up a full cycle is waiting too long, again decreasing damage output gradually. If you're waiting too long here, the best would again be to say fuck it, and change cycle type for that cycle; turn it into a, uhm... extended clipped? I really need to sort my terms for this. Messed up cycles for me mostly happen if I swap weapon speed (after getting used to one speed); I simply have the rhythm of the old weapon still, and it doesn't always fit :P
Slightly related to that, I'd say weapons which favor clipped cycles are easier to use right of the bat, since you don't have to worry much about firing too early.
If you make a mistake on the cycle, you don't automatically lose 80/17 DPS, it depends on how err. Extending an optimal cycle by a split-second doesn't automatically turn it into the other cycle, if you get my drift. This is also why I'm not using average cycle DPS values. If you actively try to clip each cycle, it's really doubtful that half of them end up as full ones.

It might be worth mentioning that I'm planning on adding a 'switch cycle' thingy to my spreadsheet. It'll give you a value (for example 1.58), and if you have less than that time left before your Auto Shot fires (yay Auto Shot timers), change your current cycle. It'll hopefully be a nice addition, potentially allowing you to avoid a huge loss of damage if you miss a cycle.
I don't really have any ETA for this; I've got a lot to do at the moment, both game, spreadsheet and RL-related.
I wouldn't really know how to make a chart with effective DPS. Based on personal stuff, DPS per cycle can be anywhere from (using the Ashjre'thul values from above) 491-571, worse with screwups.
Stuff like latency, reaction time, etc, are the main reasons for me listing the stuff I list; Best cycle DPS (and type), Worst cycle DPS (and type), Auto Shot DPS.
I made all this, and even I still consider it a tool or a guideline, not a "have to choose the weapon that's 0.02% higher than the other regardless of any other variables". For example, using my stuff, I get Bloodseeker to have slightly higher optimal damage potential than Huhuran's Stinger. Would I ever choose Bloodseeker over Huhuran's Stinger? Not very likely. I don't feel the tiny damage potential increase is big enough to outweigh the fact that Huhuran's Stinger is much more forgiving when it comes to which cycle you use, as well as just being very much better in encounters where mana is scarce. That's my judgement call, made by the information I have.
That doesn't change the fact that when used perfectly, Bloodseeker has better damage potential than Huhuran's Stinger though, but I leave it up to each person to make their own judgement call. Yes, I implicitly encourage people to think, who'd have thought? :P
I don't really know how relevant this might have been to your post, I have a tendency to start ranting / rambling.

That said, with a weapon you're not used to (2.5 vs 3.4 is quite a difference, myself I didn't like the change from 2.9 to 3.0 :P) being ahead 30k on a fight doesn't sound too bad ;) You (or the other hunters) seem very inconsistant though, might be worth checking into? =)

If this post is written in a language that does not resemble English the slightest, I blame sleep deprivation.
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#64 Vec

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 05:24 AM

@Vec
I'll look into it, thanks for notifying. Being Horde, I wouldn't be surprised if I messed up the Blessing of Kings buff 3-4 more times before getting it all right :P

Thanks :)

#65 Verbal

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 05:35 AM

Makes prefect sense Lactose.

And I think you hit the nail on the head with not being use to the timing of the weapon. With strikers I was staying with and sometimes edging out other hunters with Rhok on damage meters vs most bosses. Like you said I just need to get use to the different timing.

Also do you notice if you have a furious howl macro set for your aimed shot and wait for that auto shot to fire (non clipped cycle), the auto that is travel in the air will use that furious howl buff you have and your aimed shot will miss out due to the travel time. I use zhunter timers and watch my characters animation and always try and get that prefect non clipped cycle, I guess it will take some adjusting on my behalf before I get use to the new xbow.

Cheer Lactose.

#66 Starks

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 05:39 AM

Also do you notice if you have a furious howl macro set for your aimed shot and wait for that auto shot to fire (non clipped cycle), the auto that is travel in the air will use that furious howl buff you have and your aimed shot will miss out due to the travel time.

Yeah, it's probably not too great an idea to macro FH like that. If you manually click it while aimed shot is say, halfway through, then it won't get eaten up by your autoshot.

#67 Lactose

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 05:44 AM

Yeah, I've noticed the Furious Howl thing. I did some pretty extensive testing a while back (and a small test again after 1.12 to check if it was still an issue), and it turns out if a shot is mid-air when Furious Howl is activated, the buff is consumed, and no damage is added. Yay.

Edit: This is going more and more off-topic. We should really have a The Hunter's Den thread or something, for random hunter info and discussion ;)
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#68 Zacard

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 07:24 AM

Yeah, I've noticed the Furious Howl thing. I did some pretty extensive testing a while back (and a small test again after 1.12 to check if it was still an issue), and it turns out if a shot is mid-air when Furious Howl is activated, the buff is consumed, and no damage is added. Yay.

I used to activate howl while casting aimed shot, but never saw a noticeable increase in damage. When I activate howl prior to casting multi-shot, aimed shot or auto shot (and ensure the howl isn't consumed by a shot mid-air, which is a PITA), there is a noticeable increase in damage every time. It seems the bonus from howl is calculated at the time an ability is cast, which would explain why howl doesn't affect shots that are mid-air.

#69 Lactose

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 07:32 AM

I used to activate howl while casting aimed shot, but never saw a noticeable increase in damage. When I activate howl prior to casting multi-shot, aimed shot or auto shot (and ensure the howl isn't consumed by a shot mid-air, which is a PITA), there is a noticeable increase in damage every time. It seems the bonus from howl is calculated at the time an ability is cast, which would explain why howl doesn't affect shots that are mid-air.

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#70 Farstrider

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 08:04 AM

Edit: This is going more and more off-topic. We should really have a The Hunter's Den thread or something, for random hunter info and discussion ;)

start it tbh, I only browse the other threads waiting for more hunter threads anyway...
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#71 Verbal

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 08:27 AM

LOL All this time I thought atleast my auto shot is getting the buff from furious howl. I guess I'll remove those macros and activate furious howl myself during an aimed shot. I guess that macro is really only good for pvp when you open with an aimed shot.

I'm just praying they fix hunters in BC. We all know the problems, so I won't go in to it. Fingers crossed.

#72 Farstrider

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 08:51 AM

I'm just praying they fix hunters in BC. We all know the problems, so I won't go in to it. Fingers crossed.

I'm looking forward to it - I'm 99% sure that in between Lactose's excellent post on the EU-Hunter forums which got blue attention, and the massive delay in showing any sort of Hunter talent preview for TBC, it's being looked at pretty intensely.

The downside of that, of course, is that now we're going to need to replace weapons all the time and you're all going to get sick of it!!
<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
<Zyla> If there's gonna be a dick in the room besides my own, i'd rather it have to be my brother's. You know that kinda sounds bad all typed out like that,




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